Jesus and Satan are brothers?

[duckroll]

Do Mormons believe this? I ask because of this quote.

"Long before you were born a program was developed by your creators ... The principal personalities in this great drama were a Father Elohim, perfect in wisdom, judgment, and person, and two sons, Lucifer and Jehovah." —Spencer W. Kimball.

[Hemidakota]

Yes...so are we.

[talisyn]

One of the questions I have, for those who do not believe Christ and Satan can be brothers, is where the heck did Lucifer come from? To say that he is not one of God's children puts him on an almost equal stature with God Himself. Seems odd to me those who try to say Mormons are denigrating Christ are themselves denigrating God.

[Traveler]

One of the questions I have, for those who do not believe Christ and Satan can be brothers, is where the heck did Lucifer come from? To say that he is not one of God's children puts him on an almost equal stature with God Himself. Seems odd to me those who try to say Mormons are denigrating Christ are themselves denigrating God.

One thing that is very interesting to me is to look at a direct translation of the ancient text from which we obtain our scriptures and then look at how we interpret the same text in our modern Bible.

One of the things we learn is that there are two “BROTHERS” that are given the title of Messiah that will be at the judgment seat of G-d and will oppose each other. One is clearly referenced in the scriptures as Ha Satan. Now my question for all the self appointed “doctrine” experts that say they believe the Bible. If Jesus is not the chosen Messiah that opposes Satan; then who is the brother of Satan that is the chosen Messiah that is not the adversary of man? BTW – the name of the non-adversary Messiah is never given in the Old Testament – I have assumed that it is Jesus but I am open to other suggestions.

The Traveler

[TheJoker]

According to what you are taught at church. We are all brothers and sisters.

So in that sense. Yes. Jesus and Satan are brothers. Same as all of us.

[sixpacktr]

Traveler,

where is that source at? I'd love to read that, or find out more about it. That makes a LOT of things clear, not only in this regard, but also the role of Christ as Advocate and Satan as Accuser. Puts a whole new light on what our day at the bar of God will be like...

[Dr T]

I'd say that Lucifer was an angel that wanted to take all the power and become God. God cast him out and he was given the name Satan. Jesus on the other had, was and IS one of the Triune personages in the Godhead or Trinity as has always been the case. Angels and man are different beings entirely.

[sixpacktr]

So Dr T, I was wondering if you could clarify the statement 'angels and men are different beings entirely'. How so? Are angels better than people, on a higher plane, what?

I'm truly curious, not trying to catch you at something.

Thanks.

[Misshalfway]

I think for a non LDS person, hearing that Jesus and Satan are brothers would be hard to swallow.

Mormons believe that God the Father created all humans spirits before they came to earth. We believe we all are his spirit children and lived with God in heaven prior to coming to earth. Satan was there as a spirit child of Father as was Jesus. So....all of God's creations are family. Jesus and Satan were brothers and we are spirit siblings as well.

We believe that Satan was one of these spirit children and that he was once called "Lucifer - son of the morning". So at one time, he was valiant. But he lost all of that when he sought to literally take the power of God as he competed with Jesus over who would be the Savior of the world. He started the war in heaven and was eventuallly punished because of his rebellion. He became fallen and completely corrupted and became "Satan" as he rebelled against the will of the father and he ended up leaded a significant amount of spirit brothers and sisters with him. As a result, He and his angels were kicked out of heaven and were not permitted to come to this earth to enjoy an experience or a physical body like the rest who did follow Jesus. Satan and his angels are here on earth too tempting us and still trying to win the war they started in the pre-earth life. We can't see them, but they are here trying to get as many of us to follow them as possible. And they are jealous we have bodies. Look to the NT where the evil spirits would even be content to inhabit the bodies of pigs.

Some may think that Satan was always inherently evil. But in the LDS frame of understanding, the worst of the worst is a Son of perdition and in order to become this, one must understand truth fully and then completely turn and forsake and fight against those things. Satan is the ultimate traitor. The ultimate turncoat. He is worse than someone who was inherently evil because he DID know better and could have helped himself. Yet he deliberately chose otherwise.

The fact that we see him as a "brother" of Jesus isn't really that shocking if you understand this frame of understanding. We see God as our literal father. We see Jesus as our divine brother. Its all about family relationships when it comes to mormon theology.

And just for comparision purposes, LDS theology teaches that angels are trusted messangers from God who either did or will live on this earth. We see them as glorified but only because of their obedience to God the Father. Prophets from the OT, for example, died and revisited people in the NT.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Misshalfway

[beefche]

Miss 1/2, I was asked the same question by a good friend once. I basically used your post as my explanation. I was actually taken aback by the question since I had never thought of Satan as a brother. I ended my discussion with, "Satan lost his right call himself my brother when he became God's enemy."

So, to tag onto your post, Mormons do not think of Satan as a brother--we view him as the enemy of righteousness.

[Misshalfway]

Do Mormons believe this? I ask because of this quote.

"Long before you were born a program was developed by your creators ... The principal personalities in this great drama were a Father Elohim, perfect in wisdom, judgment, and person, and two sons, Lucifer and Jehovah." —Spencer W. Kimball.

Yes. We do believe that Satan and Jesus were bothers -- spirit brothers. The great drama Kimball is talking about is the War in Heaven. We believe that before this earth was created, God created spirit children. Every soul who ever did or ever will live on earth was part of that spirit family and lived with Father in his presence in heaven. Satan, who was once a valiant spirit son called Lucifer was there. Jesus was there as well. Remember that we believe that Jesus is literally the son of the Father and a completely separate person. You see, everything in mormon theology is about family.

God set down with all his spirit children concerning future earth life and how they would be saved. Two plans were discussed; one championed by Jesus and one by Lucifer who was called "a son of the morning". At this time, Lucifer rebelled against the will of God and wanted power and glory....literallly the power and glory of God himself. He campaigned and won over 1/3 of the spirits present. But because of this wicked rebellion, Lucifer became fallen and corrupted and became "Satan" and then he and all his followers were kicked out of heaven. They lost the opportunity to come to earth and gain a body and enjoy a human experience. The rest of us did get a chance to come to earth. Satan and his followers are here too as Father in heaven lets them tempt us. They literally are still fighting the war they started in heaven as they try to get as many of us as possible to follow them.....or at least to keep us away from God's greatest blessings. They are even jealous of our physical bodies. (See the NT when the evil spirits would settle for the bodies of pigs.)

Some think that Satan was always inherently evil. We don't. You see, in order to become the worst of the worst, you must have knowledge of truth and you must make a choice to go against that truth and literally turn 180 degrees and fight against that truth by becoming the exact opposite of righteousness. This kind of person is called a son of perdition. Satan is the first and worst. He was fallen. But he couldn't become such unless he had fallen from something. Had he been inherently evil, he couldn't have helped himself. But that is not the case with Satan. He literally chose to become what he is today. It's all about agency. It's choices that damn a person. It's no different with Satan.

[Bini]

They have always been brothers to me.

[Dr T]

For me I think the important thing there is what did God put in the dominion of man vs. angels. It Psalms 8 and in Hebrews 2. We see being make "a little lower than the angels" but we never see them having dominion over the earth. Jesus took on humanity, being able to die as a sacrifice for man. I wonder if it has something to do with that? That's why I do not see them the same. They were with God prior to man being created I'd say.

[Misshalfway]

HI Dr. T. (waving)

Angels, for mormons, are "better" than human man and "lesser" than God as well. We just believe that they are people or person's who have lived or who will live on this earth and who are especially trusted with duties from God. Angel Gabriel who visited Mary is a good example. We think he is Noah from the OT. Or when Moses and Elijah came to the mount of transfiguration. Another good example is Moroni (an angel and the last author of the BofM) was a resurrected being when he visited Joseph Smith in his bedroom. Joseph described him as a glorified being as he did radiate lots of light. And since we believe that while everyone will be resurrected, they will not necessarily be given the same resurrection meaning that some may have more glorified bodies than others, it makes sense that an angel (a resurrected human servant of God) would have more "glory" than mankind which of course would not exceed that of God himself. But we don't believe angels are a separate species outside the human family and we don't think they have wings.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

Miss 1/2, I was asked the same question by a good friend once. I basically used your post as my explanation. I was actually taken aback by the question since I had never thought of Satan as a brother. I ended my discussion with, "Satan lost his right call himself my brother when he became God's enemy."

So, to tag onto your post, Mormons do not think of Satan as a brother--we view him as the enemy of righteousness.

Yeah. I think I can get behind that. I certainly don't view him as a "brother" now. Perhaps he lost all of his birthright including the relationship.

[Dr T]

Thanks for your view Halfers :)

[Misshalfway]

Yours too, cool person who I like.

[Traveler]

Traveler,

where is that source at? I'd love to read that, or find out more about it. That makes a LOT of things clear, not only in this regard, but also the role of Christ as Advocate and Satan as Accuser. Puts a whole new light on what our day at the bar of God will be like...

There are two very important concepts in learning and advancing in doctrine and understanding. The first concept, I call the Isaiah concept because it comes to us from Isaiah chapter 28 verses 9-13. Here we learn that; as simple and straight forward as doctrine is given and understood there is always something deeper, something more. There is no end to learning of the doctrine of G-d. There is always more.

The second concept comes from 1 Cor. 3:2 and Heb. 5:12. It is part of the first principle and is mentioned in part on verse 9. This is the concept of moving beyond the “milk” of doctrines to the “meat” doctrines. The meat doctrines are not so easy to come by and are not found by reading a single scripture verse and you are done. To be involved with meat one becomes immersed in all aspects of divine means of bring knowledge to man. What I am about to unfold is a pearl of great price. I will point out scripture and some may desire to argue if what I say is “The meaning of scripture”. My point is first that what I purport is a “possible” meaning and only G-d, not flesh and blood, can resolve if my interpretations are correct or not – not an appeal to human (flesh and blood) scholarship. So let us begin.

First stop: Exodus 25:20 – There are two things of great importance in this scripture. The first concerns two symbols that are place at the thrown of G-d, one on the right side (right hand) of G-d and one on the left side (left hand). The name of these symbols is “cherubim” but more specifically they are the two “covering” cherubim. The second great important thing is translated in the King James Version of the Bible as follows: “and their faces shall look one to another”. If you are to talk to a Jewish Rabbi they will tell you that a direct literal translation of this passage is as follows: “The two brothers shall face each other”. Who are these two brothers at the right hand and left hand of G-d?

Second stop: Ezekiel chapter 28. Starting with verse 11 this piece of scripture gets very interesting but verse 14 is where we want to focus our attention for now. The phrase of great importance is given in English as follows: “anointed cherub that covereth”. The reference to “cherub that covereth” has only one possibility in scripture and that is the covering cherubim that are mentioned in Exodus 25:20. From this passage we now know that one cherub next to G-d’s thrown where he will dispense mercy is none other than Satan. Who then is his brother that that opposes him in a face to face contest? Note in verse the word that is translated as “anointed”. Another translation of the ancient Hebrew term from which “anointed” is translated – one can also translate that same term as “Messiah”. The meaning of Messiah is “anointed”. I would expect that as a minimum requirement the other brother must also be a messiah.

Conclusion: It has long been understood that Satan and his host will be found at the left hand of G-d. Who will be at the right hand of G-d? I submit that the brother of Satan – who is by right at the right hand of G-d? It is the Messiah brother of Satan, Jesus Christ. And I have only “scratched the surface”. For example Genesis 3:24 we learn that the way to G-d is a symbol that is “..to keep the way of the tree of life”. Who is that keeper of the way? Where in scripture is someone revealed as the one that is “the way”?

There are some that cannot endure the meat of doctrine. Some are still only capable of “milk”. To those not ready for “meat” – I apologize. Those that are ready for meat – I would suggest that you do a word search through the scriptures for Cherub and Cherubim and in each case that there is a symbol to identify the purpose and destiny of Cherub and Cherubim – search the scriptures again for those symbols and see for yourself of who the scriptures testify.

The Traveler

[sixpacktr]

Traveler,

Thanks for that. I will do that search and see what I find as well. You make very good points for your thoughts on this, and as I said, the final day of judgment becomes (to me) more like a trial that ever before, with Satan as the chief prosecutor, accusing us of everything and submitting we aren't deserving of mercy, and Christ as the defense attorney, stating it is all true, but that he wants us there for other reasons more important than what Satan is throwing out. As I thought of that, I thought of me, in particular, wanting more than ever that His atoning blood would hide my sins and save me from the horrors of hell. I see myself begging for that help.

Made me realize that I should be doing more of that now, and not waiting until the day of trial...

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

One of the questions I have, for those who do not believe Christ and Satan can be brothers, is where the heck did Lucifer come from? To say that he is not one of God's children puts him on an almost equal stature with God Himself. Seems odd to me those who try to say Mormons are denigrating Christ are themselves denigrating God.

I think blurting out the "Mormons say Jesus and Satan are brothers!" argument only serves to shock non-LDS christian audiences. If the purpose is evangelistic, it does nothing. All the same, the statement says a lot about the differences between LDS and non-LDS teaching. I do not think the Bible shows any kind of equality between God and Satan or Jesus and Satan.

Who says we denigrate God by saying Satan is not His son? How does saying so make him some how equal with God? Starting in Genesis it says that Satan (making his first appearance as a snake) was part of God's creation, putting him at an infinitely lower level than his creator. It also says that he was "crafty/subtle/wise/experienced" whereas Adam and Eve were "innocent" (naked: in Hebrew the words for "crafty" and naked are similar, a word-play is going on showing the contrast). So all we learn about His origin is that 1) he is just another creature, and 2) he was presumably once "innocent" but no longer.

So how then are we denigrating God?

[Traveler]

I think blurting out the "Mormons say Jesus and Satan are brothers!" argument only serves to shock non-LDS christian audiences. If the purpose is evangelistic, it does nothing. All the same, the statement says a lot about the differences between LDS and non-LDS teaching. I do not think the Bible shows any kind of equality between God and Satan or Jesus and Satan.

Who says we denigrate God by saying Satan is not His son? How does saying so make him some how equal with God? Starting in Genesis it says that Satan (making his first appearance as a snake) was part of God's creation, putting him at an infinitely lower level than his creator. It also says that he was "crafty/subtle/wise/experienced" whereas Adam and Eve were "innocent" (naked: in Hebrew the words for "crafty" and naked are similar, a word-play is going on showing the contrast). So all we learn about His origin is that 1) he is just another creature, and 2) he was presumably once "innocent" but no longer.

So how then are we denigrating God?

You make some excellent points in your post – however, you might want to consider that there is a great deal of symbolism involved in the Eden epoch. There is perhaps a good reason that Satan uses the symbol of a snake in Eden. You may want to do a word search on snake in the scriptures and see where else and who else uses the symbol of a snake.

The Traveler

[sixpacktr]

Do Mormons believe this? I ask because of this quote.

"Long before you were born a program was developed by your creators ... The principal personalities in this great drama were a Father Elohim, perfect in wisdom, judgment, and person, and two sons, Lucifer and Jehovah." —Spencer W. Kimball.

Notice that 'duckroll' just threw this out and never came back, like he thought he was going to throw a turd in the punchbowl and move on...

Glad he did it though. Learned a lot, particularly from Traveler. Gave me something to study...

[Mike Reed]

Here is a brochure that I wrote for FAIR a few years ago:

"Lucifer, the Brother of Jesus?"

The only correction that I would make pertains the Lactantius quote. I was relying on a translation of a Giovanni Papini's translation of Lactantius. Contrary to the source I cited, Lactantius never explicitly said "brother". However, he did imply a sibling relationship.

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

You make some excellent points in your post – however, you might want to consider that there is a great deal of symbolism involved in the Eden epoch. There is perhaps a good reason that Satan uses the symbol of a snake in Eden. You may want to do a word search on snake in the scriptures and see where else and who else uses the symbol of a snake.

The Traveler

Thanks Traveler,

It would not surprise me if there was a symbolic significance behind Satan's choice of form being a snake, but I have no idea what it would be. Any hints? But whether a snake or a cherub, i believe the Bible makes it clear that he is created, not any sort of equally powerful "anti-God" or "anti-messiah," that was my point.

I disagree however with your interpretation about the symbolism behind the Cherubim covering the Mercy Seat of the Ark in of the Covenant. Sure, perhaps one of them could have been Satan if indeed the Ezekiel and Isaiah passages do actually refer to him, but I think it is a stretch to say that 1) they are facing each other in an adversarial way, 2) that they are brothers, and 3) that the other is Jesus or a "good messiah" while the other is "bad." I just don't see it in the text. The symbolism doesn't seem to go much deeper than representing in miniature the real Heavenly Throne of God.

I am also unsure where you are getting the idea of a final judgment where both Jesus and Satan stand before God, one as attorney, the other as prosecutor. Yes, Satan is the "accuser of the brethren," presently, but when Jesus returns to judge the world Satan will already be imprisoned, and later at the final judgment Satan will already be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 19-20). Our own rap sheets will be enough of an adversary then!

[sixpacktr]

Yes, Satan will be imprisoned when Christ returns for the 1000 years, but he will be loosed for a while and then the end comes. Then will be the final judgment of men and of the world. I also believe that our own 'rap' sheets will be weighing heavily on us, but as I told Traveler, given that Satan is known as 'accuser of the brethren' it makes sense to me that he will still play a part in our final judgement before he is cast off into outer darkness and no longer has any power at all to tempt us.

JMHO...