Gatorman Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 Am I remembering correctly that Adam and Eve were actually given 2 commandments? 1 - Do not eat of the tree. 2 - Be fruitful and multiply Yet, it appears that until they broke #1, they could not complete #2. Or, am I remembering wrong?
Gatorman Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 You are remembering correctly.So, Adam and Eve were given contradictory commandments. They 'had' to sin for us to be, so a way was created where by, with agency, they would sin. God's plan would come to pass, one way or the other. Adam and Eve would choose the path.
Snow Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 They 'had' to sin for us to be,Yeah - if you believe that 'eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil' is slang for gett'n your groove on.
Gatorman Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 Yeah - if you believe that 'eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil' is slang for gett'n your groove on.Or, if you believe that Eve's body was incapable of reproduction until after the fall perhaps.
Gatorman Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 Wasn't the second commanded later?It is possible. I always took it as they were 2 commandments when they were placed in the Garden. But, it is possible I am wrong.
Dr T Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 Yes, they were both in the garden but one came after the fall I think but I'm being too lazy to check it out.
Justice Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 To multiply and replenish was first, while they were in the garden. In fact, it almost appears He gave the command to Adam before Eve was there. I'm not sure if that is the case, it's hard to judge timing issues in the Bible because it's not always chronological. But if it is, I'm certain God told Eve, or Adam told Eve. Her desire for partaking the fruit was to fulfill that first commandment (mother's instincts, you know). Both commandments were given before the Fall. To multiply was given first. I didn't look it up but I've studied it most of my life as a particular interest.
Justice Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 Or, if you believe that Eve's body was incapable of reproduction until after the fall perhaps.I believe their bodies were made perfect.What they lacked was the knowledge of how... good old fashioned know-how.In fact, they partook of the knowledge of good and evil, and then they recognized they were naked. They didn't before. They were completely innocent, like small children. What ever they gained by partaking the fruit, part of it was the knowledge that they were anatomically different, and they were ashamed of it and hid. God then covered them.Wonderful symbolism.
Moksha Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 Is that what you believe, Moksha? that there is no sin, only mistakes? No, but I thought if they considered the nature of sin in detail, they might have covered this idea as well.
Moksha Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 So, Adam and Eve were given contradictory commandments. They 'had' to sin for us to be, so a way was created where by, with agency, they would sin. God's plan would come to pass, one way or the other. Adam and Eve would choose the path. Even instinctual creatures can multiply and replenish. The symbolism of the tree of knowledge was Man's passage from such an instinctual creature to one with self awareness and advanced learning potential.:)
Dr T Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 Thanks Justice. Yes, in Gen. 1:28 God tells them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth. I'm not sure if it was just talked about during creation or if it was actually chronologically laid out that way before the fall or if it was after.
Snow Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 I believe their bodies were made perfect.What they lacked was the knowledge of how... good old fashioned know-how.... and yet hominids knew exactly how to do it for million of years. Were they just slow learners?
Gatorman Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 ... and yet hominids knew exactly how to do it for million of years. Were they just slow learners?Well, it depends on your point of view. Bible deniers suggest that such theories as you are suggetsing prove they are right. I believe you stated that the other group, science deniers, would believe that man, in our frail and able to make mistakes state, may not have the math right. The bible, in either regard, is not specific. I trust the bible that Heavenly Father created Adam and Even as the first man and woman. My understanding is that whether due to knowledge, innocence, or physical ability, they could not or would not follow the first commandment until they ate of the tree and fell. Which is truly the important issue. Hominds, apes, chimpanzies, or grits <hominy :) >, aren't germaine to the story. I am frustrated by those who claim to believe the bible but spend so much time trying to deny it or disprove it. What is the lesson taught by the story, who cares about the science. Science will not get us back in the presence of our Heavenly Father.
Hemidakota Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 Here's a question we batted around when I was in Bible College:Do we sin because we're sinners, or are we sinners because we sin?No one, including the adversaries can make us sin. We have a choice to sin or not.
lattelady Posted October 13, 2009 Author Report Posted October 13, 2009 Why did they have to eat from the tree in order to have sex?
Hemidakota Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Why did they have to eat from the tree in order to have sex?They simple didn't...as with John's own Book of the Revelation, Joseph Smith stated, “…it is the plainness book ever written.” Yet, when we read it, without living in John’s culture era, we have to look past the symbolism in order to understand it. Joseph was given the opportunity, as with Nephi seeing the vision as John seen it. If not, he would have to ask a thousand questions to the Savior for interpretation. For him, it was like watching a movie of the event in gaining further understanding of John’s vision. Using this event equivalence, it is the same as understanding ‘why Lucifer was allowed into the garden when it was protected and not allowing further instruction be given to both Adams [Adam and Eve]. We can come away a better understanding of the whys. Eventually, I do believe both would have taken the fruit on their own in order to prepare the bodies for mortality. A time will come, when we will have the complete picture of what happen to the last creational period prior [failed during the animal creation – See Elder B.H. Roberts reading of Joseph Smith journal] to this one, when the Godhead had to start over, covering up everything and move forward again. Failing this event would cause a delay with bringing forth HIS children to the earth. One can assume, if GOD is organized and noting the earth failed bringing a impact to the mortality, this would be a problem I assume. We need also to remember, Lucifer did not have the ability to read GOD’s mind or know of other councils held for this up coming earth after he was casted out. If I could summarize his role, he was nothing more than a patsy for our salvation and to keep this mortality on schedule. My two cents, for it worth…In summary, I do bleive, when brother of Jared's writing are finally release, it will give us the information in detail. Edited October 13, 2009 by Hemidakota
lattelady Posted October 13, 2009 Author Report Posted October 13, 2009 I'm sorry, that didn't really answer the question I had in regard to the comments being made about the "2 commandments": 1)do not eat from the tree and 2) be fruitful and multiply. It is being asserted that in order to keep commandment number 2, commandment number one had to be broken. I just wanted an answer as to why. Did God not create man and woman with an inborn, natural ability to have sex, procreate? Didn't he create the animals with that ability?
Hemidakota Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 I'm sorry, that didn't really answer the question I had in regard to the comments being made about the "2 commandments": 1)do not eat from the tree and 2) be fruitful and multiply. It is being asserted that in order to keep commandment number 2, commandment number one had to be broken. I just wanted an answer as to why. Did God not create man and woman with an inborn, natural ability to have sex, procreate? Didn't he create the animals with that ability?Let me ask you on the last sentence and have you ponder this one: - How would immature [comparing it to a two-year mortal child] grown-up adults have any sexual relations? Did not GOD state, they were both naked and not ashamed? What happen when both of their eyes were open? What was gained by eating this fruit? - If they had sexual contact, what is the end state of the child while still in the garden?
Misshalfway Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 Why did they have to eat from the tree in order to have sex?I don't know for sure but my guess is that the ability to procreate (the old fashioned way) couldn't happen when one is innocent and immortal. Eating of the tree brought knowledge and mortality. That must have unlocked the door to procreation and their eyes became opened. It seems that Eve understood this as it was the the reason that persuaded Adam to partake.
Misshalfway Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 I'm sorry, that didn't really answer the question I had in regard to the comments being made about the "2 commandments": 1)do not eat from the tree and 2) be fruitful and multiply. It is being asserted that in order to keep commandment number 2, commandment number one had to be broken. I just wanted an answer as to why. Did God not create man and woman with an inborn, natural ability to have sex, procreate? Didn't he create the animals with that ability?Not that I understand how God formed man and woman but it apparently had something to do with dust and ribs and that this creation produced immortal, innocent creatures. It is my understanding that God can't create anything that is corruptable and certainly flesh is corruptable. I think the animals were in that state of being too. I am not sure they could procreate either. The scriptures seem to indicate that the fall created the circle of life for all the creatures and plants etc.And this makes sense if you look at it from the other end of things. Adam and Eve were living in the presence of God. They took the fruit. Sin and death are introduced and as a result they were cast out of God's presence. In order to get back to God's presence, to be saved, we must reverse the process. We can't go back to being innocent, but thru the Savior, we will be resurrected (immortal) and cleansed (returned to a pure state). Then we can go back into the presence of the Father.
Misshalfway Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 Sorry....one more thought. If the circle of life included death, it must also include birth. So another reason birth was impossible in the garden. It seems God was the only one who could create life in the garden.
Hemidakota Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 I don't know for sure but my guess is that the ability to procreate (the old fashioned way) couldn't happen when one is innocent and immortal. Eating of the tree brought knowledge and mortality. That must have unlocked the door to procreation and their eyes became opened. It seems that Eve understood this as it was the the reason that persuaded Adam to partake.Both our Heavenly Parents are IMMORTAL and they have children.
Misshalfway Posted October 13, 2009 Report Posted October 13, 2009 Both our Heavenly Parents are IMMORTAL and they have children.Good point. So what's the difference? Our Heavenly parents do not produce mortal children. They produce spirit children. Its clear that Father can create bodies....bodies for Adam and Eve, but it is the nature of those bodies that are in question. They were not mortal either and could not produce children that needed saving. Nothing could reproduce in the garden. There was no progression.
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