Changes to John 3:16

[lattelady]

Also, am I to understand now that "keeping the commandments" (in your thinking) just means remaining loyal to God through trials? And how does this relate specifically to the 2 commandments: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself" ?

[Snow]

My take is a little simpler. The 2nd thief realizes Jesus is from God. He tells the first thief to can the mockery if he has any fear of God. Then, he turns to Jesus and asks if he might help a dying thief out. Jesus responds by saying yes.

If we must infuse doctrine into it, I'd say it's that if you need help, rather than cursing God for the problem, ask him for help.

Agreed

[ryanh]

Also, am I to understand now that "keeping the commandments" (in your thinking) just means remaining loyal to God through trials? And how does this relate specifically to the 2 commandments: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself" ?

I assume you are asking Traveler, and I have no intent to supersed his personal opinion, but such a statement would not accurately reflect my understanding. Loyalty through trials may be very telling, a true litmus test of what we are down deep, but service of, and love for, others is expected when we are in times of ease too.

Lattelady, if you really want to understand the beliefs of LDS as they relate to faith/works/grace, I would highly suggest the book Believing Christ. It is not a long read, but addresses the topic fairly well. (You are more than welcome to borrow my copy if you can meet up in SLC, but it may be cheaper than gas to just find a used one at a local DI.)

For example, this AM's reading included:

FAITH VS. WORKS

For centuries theologians have argued pointlessly over whether individuals are saved by faith or saved by works. A pox on both their houses, for neither by faith alone (defining faith as mere passive belief)4 nor by works alone are we saved. Salvation comes through a covenant relationship in which both faith and works play their parts. To insist that salvation comes by works alone, that we can earn it ourselves without needing the grace of God, insults the mercy of God and mocks the sacrifice of Jesus Christ in our behalf. On the other hand, to insist that salvation comes by belief alone and that God places no other obligations upon the believer insults the justice of God and makes Christ the minister of sin.

The scriptural concept of the covenant, an agreement between mortals and God that lays obligations on both parties and that satisfies both justice and mercy, eliminates the false either/or of faith versus works. In simple terms this is the arrangement - we do what we are able to do, and Jesus Christ, the object of our faith, out of his love and mercy and grace, does what we are not yet able to do. And we must believe he can do it-we must believe Christ.

In the parable of the talents, it did not matter that he with five talents earned five more while he with three talents earned only three. The efforts of both were accepted, though one had more talents and produced more results than the other. Indeed, even he with only one talent would have been accepted, if only he had done what he could-but he chose not to try.

It is true that we cannot save ourselves by our works, but we can contribute something to the joint efforts of the partnership. To be in partnership, to be in a covenant relationship, we must do something. Even though our best efforts may be insufficient to save ourselves, they are sufficient as a token of good faith to establish a covenant with our Savior. Though that covenant relationship is then "sufficient to own, to redeem, and to justify," God still requires our participation. Without our assent and our participation, salvation would amount to nothing more than predestination, a happy accident that arbitrarily happens to some people and not to others.

No, we must participate in our own salvation to the extent that we are able. It is a partnership after all, and the junior partners must contribute what they can. To refuse such participation is to refuse the very idea of partnership. Two persons riding a tandem bicycle may not do the same amount of work, but if the weaker one uses that as an excuse to pull up his feet and stop pedaling altogether, then by definition the arrangement ceases to be a partnership and becomes exploitation. In the language of the gospel, it violates the covenant.

Trying our hardest to keep the commandments and be like Christ is part of our covenant obligation, not because we can succeed at them in this life, but because the attempt, the commitment to try, demonstrates our sincerity and our commitment to the covenant; it is a statement of our goals and desires. Our valiant attempts show that we really do hunger and thirst after righteousness - even if we don't always succeed at it. Faith is always willing to try-and to try again and again. While success is not a requirement of the covenant of faith, my best attempts are. The gospel covenant requires this "good faith" effort.

So the old debate about faith versus works is a false dichotomy, a phony either/or. No matter which side we choose, faith alone or works alone, we destroy the concept of a covenant, of the partnership between the individual and God.

Edited October 30, 2009 by ryanh

[Maureen]

Trying our hardest to keep the commandments and be like Christ is part of our covenant obligation, not because we can succeed at them in this life, but because the attempt, the commitment to try, demonstrates our sincerity and our commitment to the covenant; it is a statement of our goals and desires. Our valiant attempts show that we really do hunger and thirst after righteousness - even if we don't always succeed at it. Faith is always willing to try-and to try again and again. While success is not a requirement of the covenant of faith, my best attempts are. The gospel covenant requires this "good faith" effort.

This part I definitely agree on.

[Justice]

This is one of the most plain scriptures in all the Bible about how good works acts as the hinge in determining if you are a follower of Christ.

1 John 3:

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

[Justice]

It's plain to me that it's a difference of understading terms. So, let's try to merge our terms into one, to see if we can agree.

LDS use the term "born again" and mainstream uses the term "saved."

Perhaps these 2 tems apply to different times in a Christians life.

I always go back to the example of baptism because I believe it is best symbol for a "work that we do" found in scripture.

LDS say "Baptism is required" knowing provisions have been made for those who left this life without baptism. Mainstream has a very difficult time with baptism being required because, according to their belief, no such provisions have been made. The discussion about the thief hanging next to Jesus is a prime example of how the 2 different beliefs lead to different understandings.

Baptism is a work, and therefore is pertinent to this discussion.

As an example, I can see how those who do not believe in baptism for the dead can have a very difficult time with works being required.

It's like buying a new house. You do not have the money for the new house all at once. But, the bank does, so you must go to the bank. If you do not go to the bank you will not get the new house. Now, money is not a new house, but is a means for getting what you desire.

Works are much the same way. Your works are not related to Christ's works. But, works are a way of applying what Christ did so eternal life is possible, or so that you can become a son of God.

The word become is not a free gift here, or else all would become.

I think many get hung up on the reason for works and say works can be selfish. Well, let's just agree to throw selfish works out now.

When we were younger, and just after we had twins, we struggled financially. My wife was off work and did not work for the company long enough to be paid for pregnancy time off. One month we were in a bind. We had no way to pay our rent and buy food. We knew we had to pay rent, so we did. The next day a sweet widow from our ward, who was not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, showed up at our door and insisted we take $100 for food. No one told her we were struggling. She felt we were.

This kind, loving work lifted our spirits and strengthened our testimonies in "do[ing] what's right and the Lord will provide."

This was a work. She had no thought of reward or honor, a pre-requisite of the works Christ taught. She wanted to help because she cared.

This is what we must be open to as followers of Christ. This is how Christ taught His followers to be[come].

So, understanding this, I want to throw out a different word for work for those who just don't like the word.

Sacrifice.

This was a sacrifice for this widow on a meager fixed income.

There is no gain or growth without sacrifice. The more willing the sacrifice is the more we learn and grow. The more we give up the things of the world for the things that really matter, the more Christ-like we will be. We must give up what we have (especially earthly things since they will not pass with us into the next life) to those who have less and are in need.

This is what it means to be born again, and it is also what it means to be saved from our carnal and selfish selves.

"Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven..."

See the latest video on the Church's web site:

YouTube - MormonMessages's Channel

Edited November 1, 2009 by Justice

[lattelady]

One line of your post rings untrue to my understanding of the gospel message: (I'll also quote the line previous to it for context)

"But works are a way of applying what Christ did so eternal life is possible, or so that you can become a son of God.

THE WORD 'become' IS NOT A FREE GIFT HERE, OR ELSE ALL WOULD BECOME." That is not true. Let's consider an illustration: when Bath and Body Works sends out coupons in the mail (I got one just recently) for free product, up to a certain $ amount value, they are coupons for free product. I usually go in and get anti-bacterial handsoap, or lotion. It's free! I love it. Does everyone who receives the coupon automatically receive products? NO. They all get coupons, yes. But until they redeem them, they don't become "free gift recipients." Many people think the coupon is a waste of their time and they chuck it in the garbage. They don't want it. Many people do the same thing with the free gift of grace that Jesus holds out. That is why the Bible says, "BUT TO AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, to them gave He the right to become sons of God, even to them who BELIEVED on His name." He died for ALL men, but they must ACCEPT, RECEIVE the gift in order for it to belong to them, in order to possess it! Scripture is pretty clear that all will not become, because MANY will refuse the free gift. Many will reject God. We BECOME a son of God because He holds out a free gift and we accept it. Not everyone is a son of God. Not everyone is a child of God.

[pam]

Many will reject God. We BECOME a son of God because He holds out a free gift and we accept it. Not everyone is a son of God. Not everyone is a child of God.

I disagree with this. We are all sons and daughters of God whether we accept him or not.

Not just my opinion but is taught in our religion.

Edited November 2, 2009 by pam

[Justice]

Does everyone who receives the coupon automatically receive products? NO. They all get coupons, yes. But until they redeem them, they don't become "free gift recipients."

Semantics.

There is work required in being a follower of Christ. This example you used of "redeeming a coupon" is a perfect story to show how. If you do nothing about your belief in Christ then His gift is as an unredeemed coupon.

[BenRaines]

We are all sons and daughters of God. When we accept Christ we become sons and daughters of Christ. To the LDS God the Father is one and Christ, the Son of God is another.

Ben Raines

[Justice]

Through sin we fall. Much like the story of the Prodigal Son, we can regain our son/daughtership standing through repentance.

So, even though we are all sons and daughters of God, we are fallen, and hopefully reborn a son or daughter of God.

The first relationship being a literal one, the second by choice.

From a non-LDS perspective, I can see where she is coming from.

[Carl62]

One line of your post rings untrue to my understanding of the gospel message: (I'll also quote the line previous to it for context)

"But works are a way of applying what Christ did so eternal life is possible, or so that you can become a son of God.

THE WORD 'become' IS NOT A FREE GIFT HERE, OR ELSE ALL WOULD BECOME." That is not true. Let's consider an illustration: when Bath and Body Works sends out coupons in the mail (I got one just recently) for free product, up to a certain $ amount value, they are coupons for free product. I usually go in and get anti-bacterial handsoap, or lotion. It's free! I love it. Does everyone who receives the coupon automatically receive products? NO. They all get coupons, yes. But until they redeem them, they don't become "free gift recipients." Many people think the coupon is a waste of their time and they chuck it in the garbage. They don't want it. Many people do the same thing with the free gift of grace that Jesus holds out. That is why the Bible says, "BUT TO AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, to them gave He the right to become sons of God, even to them who BELIEVED on His name." He died for ALL men, but they must ACCEPT, RECEIVE the gift in order for it to belong to them, in order to possess it! Scripture is pretty clear that all will not become, because MANY will refuse the free gift. Many will reject God. We BECOME a son of God because He holds out a free gift and we accept it. Not everyone is a son of God. Not everyone is a child of God.

So then where exactly is that line where we are or are not a son of God? It seems like that would get kinda blurry in some peoples cases. How would one truly know? That's why we believe ALL are sons and daughters of God. Here's another illustration: A couple may have 12 children. Some may grow up embracing the gopsel 100%, some may be lukewarm, and others may reject it harshly. Does this mean then that those parents don't regard the apostate ones as their children? No. They may love them still the same as all the others, it's just that they've come to an understanding that they'll be travelling down a diferent road. And they may be just as nice and friendly and who knows, maybe even less hypocritical and judgemental than the active ones. It's just that they don't fit the mold that the parents set out for them religion-wise. They are still those parent's children and they're loved just the same. This is exactly how God treats all people and yes, I do thank God for that.:)

[Traveler]

Traveler, in reference to one of your earlier posts, you spoke of Christ pre-resurrection and said that many believe that He was without flaw--but that not even Jesus claimed to be without flaw. Where do you get that from? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

The specific scripture is the ever famious Matt 5:48. Here Jesus makes reference that "the Father" is the example of being perfect rather than himself. Also I see no scriptural basis for understanding perfect to mean "without flaw. To make this point I would refer you to Genesis 6:9.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Also, am I to understand now that "keeping the commandments" (in your thinking) just means remaining loyal to God through trials? And how does this relate specifically to the 2 commandments: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself" ?

I am sorry because I assume that a student of scripture and the ancient concept of "kingdom" would have a better handle on concepts of covenants and commandments. Jesus makes sever references to these concepts in his teachings with his use of parables; in particular the understanding of “stewards” and the “master’s vineyard or the parable of the talents. One of the most stunning references to covenant obedience and loyalty is when Jesus voiced the phrase, “eyes that see and ears that hear.”

Anciently in a kingdom citizens of the kingdom of “subjects” of the supreme Suzerain in order to maintain “favored” status must prove loyal to the Suzerain. Those that did not prove loyal the standard punishment was to gouge out their eyes (Sampson as an example) and/or burn or cut off their ears so that they could not hear. Thus when Jesus said that those that have eyes will see and those with ears will hear made a spiritual parallel teaching that his followers would hear “his voice” (which has interesting symbolism in ancient kingdoms) and will understanding his doctrines because they had proven themselves “loyal” in conventional testing (Job as an example).

I thought to add one other thought to this post. The Pharisees and Scribes that Jesus often criticized are excellent examples of disloyal “believers” in G-d. Because they believed they were believers, Jesus pointed that there must be loyalty (not a claim of belief but a claim of loyalty) – See John 8:37-47.

The Traveler

Edited November 2, 2009 by Traveler

[Traveler]

One line of your post rings untrue to my understanding of the gospel message: (I'll also quote the line previous to it for context)

"But works are a way of applying what Christ did so eternal life is possible, or so that you can become a son of God.

THE WORD 'become' IS NOT A FREE GIFT HERE, OR ELSE ALL WOULD BECOME." That is not true. Let's consider an illustration: when Bath and Body Works sends out coupons in the mail (I got one just recently) for free product, up to a certain $ amount value, they are coupons for free product. I usually go in and get anti-bacterial handsoap, or lotion. It's free! I love it. Does everyone who receives the coupon automatically receive products? NO. They all get coupons, yes. But until they redeem them, they don't become "free gift recipients." Many people think the coupon is a waste of their time and they chuck it in the garbage. They don't want it. Many people do the same thing with the free gift of grace that Jesus holds out. That is why the Bible says, "BUT TO AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, to them gave He the right to become sons of God, even to them who BELIEVED on His name." He died for ALL men, but they must ACCEPT, RECEIVE the gift in order for it to belong to them, in order to possess it! Scripture is pretty clear that all will not become, because MANY will refuse the free gift. Many will reject God. We BECOME a son of God because He holds out a free gift and we accept it. Not everyone is a son of God. Not everyone is a child of God.

I believe there are significant errors in what you are trying to teach in this post. You talk of “accepting” as the cashing in your certificate. The error is in your understanding of loyalty. Jesus made it very clear you could not be cashing in his certificates and also cashing in the certificates of Baal. One must be loyal to G-d and not serve (even a little tiny bit) another master.

The Traveler

[Misshalfway]

This might be completely random but I read something last night that talked about this grace/works/faith relationship and it said that we don't obey to acheive salvation. We obey to obtain mercy. I think that is an important distinction.

[Vort]

This might be completely random but I read something last night that talked about this grace/works/faith relationship and it said that we don't obey to acheive salvation. We obey to obtain mercy. I think that is an important distinction.

Maybe it is an important distinction, but I'm not sure why. Isn't the mercy we receive the very salvation of which we speak?

[Misshalfway]

No because we don't obtain it by being good. Obedience can't save by itself. All action we take must go thru the atonement for Salvation to happen. It is thru mercy that the blessing is granted not thru merit.

[Traveler]

This might be completely random but I read something last night that talked about this grace/works/faith relationship and it said that we don't obey to acheive salvation. We obey to obtain mercy. I think that is an important distinction.

I keep trying to get people to consider the importance of covenant. Let me put it this way - who accepts the marrage covenant? Who has accepted the love of their spouse? Someone that brags about how they love their spouse but is not loyal (keeps a consort on the side)? Or someone that may not say anything but is in every way loyal exclusively to their spouse and marrage covenant?

Why is this such a hard concept for anybody? Why do some keep insisting on a "loop hole"? Because they are not loyal.

It is interesting that Isaiah said to the king in the literal translation of Isaiah. In essence "You cannot believe because you are not loyal."

The Traveler

[Misshalfway]

I keep trying to get people to consider the importance of covenant.

The Traveler

So do I. Perhaps you have missed some of my earlier posts on the subject.

[Traveler]

So do I. Perhaps you have missed some of my earlier posts on the subject.

Sorry I do not read all posts. Jesus himself compared the relationship of man to G-d in the same manner that we enter into a marriage. I am quite surprised what some define as accepting of G-d in less than scriptural manner and choke over even the thought that loyalty is a “necessary” element in accepting G-d or believing in him.

The Traveler

[Vort]

No because we don't obtain it by being good. Obedience can't save by itself. All action we take must go thru the atonement for Salvation to happen. It is thru mercy that the blessing is granted not thru merit.

If the mercy we receive through obedience to Christ is not salvation from death (temporal and spiritual), what is that mercy? I can think of no other mercy we receive from Christ, except things related to our salvation, like forgiveness of sins.

[lattelady]

Traveler,

Another point at which we will disagree is: you're saying Jesus was pointing people to the Father and saying, "Be perfect, as My Father is perfect"--I agree. But you're saying THAT somehow proves that even Jesus Himself isn't perfect/flawless--only God is. I believe that the Word of God teaches that Jesus IS God. "I and the Father are one." If you've seen the Son, you've seen the Father (they are ONE). Jesus is God made man, God come down to Earth. God's Son, and God, all at the same time. The Trinity. It is hard to fathom; but to insinuate that Jesus was not perfect is a pretty serious accusation, to me. It questions His diety. Again, even the Jews understood that He was claiming to be God, and wanted to stone Him.

[Misshalfway]

If the mercy we receive through obedience to Christ is not salvation from death (temporal and spiritual), what is that mercy? I can think of no other mercy we receive from Christ, except things related to our salvation, like forgiveness of sins.

We are saying the same thing, Vort.

[Vort]

We are saying the same thing, Vort.

I thought so, but I don't understand the wording. You said that it helped you to understand the principle by realizing that we don't earn salvation through our works, only mercy. But if the mercy we "earn" through our works is in fact the mercy of salvation, then...