Misshalfway Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 Ok. I have this doctrinal lapse in my understanding and because of it I have a load of sympathy (is that the right word) for people who do believe in the Trinity. I don't' believe in the Trinity. I believe that Jesus and Father are two separate beings. BUT......let me see if I can construct my question so it makes sense. So....if Jesus is the great I am and like the father in all ways and all powerful and performed a great condescention to become flesh, then how could he be all of those things AND the first spirit born in the pre earth life? It seems like being an unprogressed spirit child would disqualify one from Godhood. Does this make any sense? Hopefully someone can understand the jist of my question and help me fill in the blanks. Quote
Dr T Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 I don't think Jesus was born in a pre-earth life because I believe Jesus to have always existed. I do not believe in a preexistence so we have different views on that. I also do not see Jesus progressing-he always was. He was the only member of the godhead that took on humanity or added humanity to his nature. That's how I see it. Quote
Misshalfway Posted October 21, 2009 Author Report Posted October 21, 2009 As always T, I appreciate your perspectives and beliefs. The idea of a pre earth life makes so very much sense to me. It resonates with the deepest parts of my spirit. I honestly believe that this idea is a true one. So it would be difficult for me to figure out this question without the context of a pre earth life. Quote
beefche Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 Miss 1/2 I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking how Jesus can be the first born in the pre-earth life and be a God then? Somewhere we are taught that He progressed (I can't remember where, and I'm too lazy to look it up). I think I don't understand your question. Quote
Misshalfway Posted October 21, 2009 Author Report Posted October 21, 2009 I know I didn't word it well. I am not sure I can find the right words. Quote
Guest Godless Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 So....if Jesus is the great I am and like the father in all ways and all powerful and performed a great condescention to become flesh, then how could he be all of those things AND the first spirit born in the pre earth life? It seems like being an unprogressed spirit child would disqualify one from Godhood. It was always my understanding that Jesus wasn't an unprogressed spirit child. He achieved Godhood long before any of us came to Earth. This makes his mortal life all the more significant because he came to Earth after previously having an equal status with the Father, or at least nearly equal. In any case, he came to the Earth as a diety in mortal form, not a spirit child who had need of further progression like we do. That's just my take. I could be completely off the mark. I've been out of the game for a while, after all. Quote
beefche Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 (beefche trying to jump into the mind of Miss 1/2): Are you asking how Jesus could "progress" if he was firstborn in the pre-earth life? Are you thinking that when He was "created" as firstborn of Heavenly Father in the pre-earth life, He wasn't "progressed"--that He had to learn like the rest of us? And if so, then why was He God in the pre-earth life? Quote
Misshalfway Posted October 21, 2009 Author Report Posted October 21, 2009 (beefche trying to jump into the mind of Miss 1/2):Are you asking how Jesus could "progress" if he was firstborn in the pre-earth life? Are you thinking that when He was "created" as firstborn of Heavenly Father in the pre-earth life, He wasn't "progressed"--that He had to learn like the rest of us? And if so, then why was He God in the pre-earth life?Yes. I mean, what made him different? With regards to his earth visit, being the son of God makes perfect sense to me. He was sired by a diety and mothered by an earthling. But how was he any different than the rest of us if the only difference was birth order? Quote
mnn727 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) Jesus is the God of the O.T., He was already God before He came to this earth to become its Savior, thus He did not need to progress in this life as He already had -- unfortunatly where and when is only speculation. I've got my own beliefs on the subject of where and when he became (a) God, but since nothing has ever been revealed it is only speculation. One thing to remember; the body and the spirit are not the same thing, your spirit will leave this earthly body at your death to eventually gain a celestial body, so you will have at least 2 physical bodies in your existance -- so then why not 3? Edited October 21, 2009 by mnn727 Quote
pam Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 It was always my understanding that Jesus wasn't an unprogressed spirit child. He achieved Godhood long before any of us came to Earth. This makes his mortal life all the more significant because he came to Earth after previously having an equal status with the Father, or at least nearly equal. In any case, he came to the Earth as a diety in mortal form, not a spirit child who had need of further progression like we do. That's just my take. I could be completely off the mark. I've been out of the game for a while, after all. Well I think you need to get back into the game. Quote
Guest Godless Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 Well I think you need to get back into the game. I think heck would freeze over if I did that. Quote
Misshalfway Posted October 21, 2009 Author Report Posted October 21, 2009 Jesus is the God of the O.T., He was already God before He came to this earth to become its Savior, thus He did not need to progress in this life as He already had -- unfortunatly where and when is only speculation. I've got my own beliefs on the subject of where and when he became (a) God, but since nothing has ever been revealed it is only speculation.Ok. So I am cool with this. One thing to remember; the body and the spirit are not the same thing, your spirit will leave this earthly body at your death to eventually gain a celestial body, so you will have at least 2 physical bodies in your existance -- so then why not 3? Not sure what you are laying down with this one. It is my understanding that Jesus had to get a body like everyone else and coming to earth was how he got one even if he was God already. Quote
beefche Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 Yes. I mean, what made him different? With regards to his earth visit, being the son of God makes perfect sense to me. He was sired by a diety and mothered by an earthling. But how was he any different than the rest of us if the only difference was birth order?Ok, I thought that was what you were asking.Again, I'm pretty sure this is in some book (not scriptures, but a commentary--maybe Jesus the Christ??), but He progressed line upon line as He did on earth. Quote
bytor2112 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 " Christ worked out his own salvation. This is something of which uninspired men have no comprehension. Truly, he was the Lord Omnipotent before the world was; truly, he was like unto the Father in the premortal life; truly, he was the Son of God here on earth--and yet, with it all, as with all the spirit children of the same Father, he too was subject to all of the terms and conditions of the Father's plan.He also was born on earth to undergo a mortal probation, to die, to rise again in immortal glory, to be judged according to his works, and to receive his place of infinite glory in the eternal kingdom of his Everlasting Father. How well Paul said:Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;And being made perfect, he became the author [that is, the cause] of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." [Hebrews 5: 8*9] - Bruce R. McConkie Quote
Misshalfway Posted October 21, 2009 Author Report Posted October 21, 2009 I think heck would freeze over if I did that. Truthfully, I have had enough of what "heck" has to offer. If you could get back in the game, you'd do everyone a favor. :) Quote
Misshalfway Posted October 21, 2009 Author Report Posted October 21, 2009 Bytor.....where did you pull that quote? Quote
will227457 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 I think heck would freeze over if I did that. were is heck?surely you mean hell..... Quote
beefche Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 were is heck?surely you mean hell.....Well, there is Hell Michigan. I think Heck is in Utah.... Quote
Seminarysnoozer Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 It is the same question as asking why he had to be baptized. Because even he was a God the second before he was baptized, (for those that don't believe in the pre-existance) why go through with it? Quote
bytor2112 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 Bytor.....where did you pull that quote?The Mystery of Godliness Quote
WmLee Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) Let's look at it this way, (which may be wrong, but for fun anyway) Christ, under the direction of the Father, created this world and perhaps more like it. He set things up, under the direction of the Father, so we could continue in our Fathers plan of growing. The Savior, (being first born to me is not important) grew as He followed the Fathers instructions. When I first wanted my son to learn to build a fire, I didn't tell him, "There you will find wood, go build a fire". I instructed him on what he needed to do. I believe the Savior learned much the same way.He had to come here, receive a physical body, He had to do the atonement, so we could return after repending and so He could stand as mediator for us before our Father during judgement.Yes, the Savior knew what addiction was, he understood impulse behavior, he understood it all. But He didn't know, he hadn't lived through it. And for that He needed to be here, He had to experience it at the time of the atonement, so that we can be forgiven.The Savior, the atonement, and his addressing His Father show me that we have a Father in Heaven and He sent His Son, Jesus Christ so that I can return. Nothing stands out to me more, helps me understand the trinity more, of who I am and why I am here. So, I believe the Savior grew as He worked under the Fathers direction and as He lived with a physical body and at the atonement as He lived through our mistakes so He could be the final Lamb on the alter, for us.Just a thought I guess. Edited October 21, 2009 by WmLee Quote
WmLee Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 · Hidden Hidden Let's look at it this way, (which may be wrong, but for fun anyway) Christ, under the direction of the Father, created this world and perhaps more like it. He set things up, under the direction of the Father, so we could continue in our Fathers plan of growing. The Savior, (being first born to me is not important) grew as he followed the fathers instructions. When I first wanted my son to learn to build a fire, I didn't tell him, "There you will find wood, go build a fire". I instructed him on what he eneded to do. I believe the Savior learned much the same way. He had to come here, receive a physical body, He had to do the atonement, so we could return after repending and so He could stand as mediator for us before our Father during judgement. Yes, the Savior knew what addiction was, he understood impulse behavior, he understood it all. But He didn't know, he hadn't lived through it. And for that He needed to be here, He had to experience it at the time of the atonement, so that we can be forgiven. The Savior, the atonement, and his addressing His Father show me that we have a Father in Heaven and He sent His Son, Jesus Christ so that I can return. Nothing stands out to me more, helps me understand the trinity more, of who I am and why I am here.
prisonchaplain Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 I don't think Jesus was born in a pre-earth life because I believe Jesus to have always existed. I do not believe in a preexistence so we have different views on that. I also do not see Jesus progressing-he always was. He was the only member of the godhead that took on humanity or added humanity to his nature. That's how I see it. If it's any consolation, Dr. T, you are right about all this. Quote
Maureen Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 Dr. T. I see it your way too. It's just less confusing the "Trinity" way. :) Quote
Dravin Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 If it's any consolation, Dr. T, you are right about all this. You know hearing other people bear testimony of something you don't believe isn't nearly as satisfying as doing it yourself (bearing testimony of something they don't believe). :) Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.