What a curelom might be

[Vanhin]

The problem with this interpolation, People of Jared never spoke or wrote in Hebrew. They still maintained what was left of the true divine language of Adam and Eve through Noah and his sons. I have some previous writings from the past I need to research of the meaning of this type of animal.

I think thekabalist would view Adamic as a form of Hebrew as well, or at least Semitic. Not to mention the fact that a Hebrew speaking prophet named Moroni abridged the record of the Jaredites. Take the following Jaredite word, for example - Ripliancum. The waters Ripliancum, according to the Book of Mormon narrative, means "large, or to exceed all" (Ether 15:8). Thekabalist gave the following definition in the BoM Names thread:

Ripliancum - "[He] has caused me to rise"

Pretty close, if you asked me. :)

Regards,

Vanhin

[thekabalist]

Yes. To Jews "Adamic" is Hebrew. This is how we have always believed it. And if I'm not mistaken somebody showed me evidence that the Nephites also believed this. To be honest I don't see the Nephites as believing anything different from that this belief in Judaism is nearly as old as Judaism itself.

[Vanhin]

Yes. To Jews "Adamic" is Hebrew. This is how we have always believed it. And if I'm not mistaken somebody showed me evidence that the Nephites also believed this. To be honest I don't see the Nephites as believing anything different from that this belief in Judaism is nearly as old as Judaism itself.

Well the Nephites themselves did speak Hebrew, and Moroni claimed that their record would have had no imperfections, had they been able to write it in Hebrew characters instead of reformed Egyptian (Mormon 9:32-34). But we cannot decipher from the text exactly what the Jaredites spoke. We just know that the Lord did not confound their language during the tower of Babel (Ether 1:33-37). Some have opined that this meant that they kept the language of Noah, which presumably is Adamic.

We also know that a seer with interpreters was needed to translate record of the Jaredites, which Moroni abridged as the Book of Ether. (Check out Mosiah 8, it's good stuff.)

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited December 8, 2009 by Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

I think thekabalist would view Adamic as a form of Hebrew as well, or at least Semitic. Not to mention the fact that a Hebrew speaking prophet named Moroni abridged the record of the Jaredites. Take the following Jaredite word, for example - Ripliancum. The waters Ripliancum, according to the Book of Mormon narrative, means "large, or to exceed all" (Ether 15:8). Thekabalist gave the following definition in the BoM Names thread:

Ripliancum - "[He] has caused me to rise"

Pretty close, if you asked me. :)

Regards,

Vanhin

Even the name you mentioned is not a original Hebrew term and was taken from Jared's people account and cannot be considered a Nephite term. Read the Book of Ether.

Further, Zarahemla people translated Jared’s symbols writings into their own language [via Jared’s U&T] and then retranslated into reformed Egyptian by Moroni. There is nothing in the Book of Mormon written in Hebrew. Even Moroni explained why. Crossing one language to another may change the verbiage entirely.

One thing to note is the grouping of animals by the original author [Ether] and Moroni using this same style when condensing Ether’s writing on what was considered important.

[Ether chapter 4 and 9] “…they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms…”

[Hemidakota]

Back in 2008, my brother-in-law asked this same question but specifically with horses and chariots written in the Book of Mormon. Here is my response:

To figure out on what few animals did the Jaredites bring to the new world, the Book of Ether 9:17-19, it reads…

Having all manner of fruit, and of grain, and of silks, and of fine linen, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things;

And also all manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of goats, and also many other kinds of animals which were useful for the food of man.

And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.

Interesting to note is the phrase ‘Cureloms and Cumons’. My assumption based on this animal relationship grouping, it may have belonged to the Elephant line. I will get to this latter portion of this comment.

Another interesting factoid to note Pete, it was Cortez's party in their long conquest of the new found world, roaming the Yucatan peninsula, the group observed herds of docile deer that scholars think were domesticated by the Mayans [Lamanites]. Even Mazahua Indians of El Salvador, during the same conquest, were described as a pastoral people by Cortez’s party, who owned and cared for herds of deer. I think Cortez was quite surprised to see any kind of herding of animals in the new world and noting some cultural historians, who had generally conceived a total absence of this type of practice. It was noted back a few years ago, scientists agreed that a full pastoral tradition based on domesticated llamas existed in pre-Columbian Peru for thousands of years. So, beside cows, what was left of the Lamanites that spread from Central America to South America and North America, herded such animals as the bison, the deer, the llama, and perhaps many others types.

Now on to the horses (Equus), were present in the western hemisphere long ago prior to the Spaniards arrival. It has been assumed that they did not survive the time when settled peoples inhabited the New World; referring to the Jaredites and Lamanites. Pete, do you know that actual horse bones have been found in a number of Yucatan Peninsula archaeological sites; noting one of those finding artifact was buried six feet beneath the surface? Pete, you may remember the word Chariot was used in the Book of Mormon (read Alma 20; 3 Nephi 20) used as a pulling vehicle? Thus, we simply do not understand what might have been the nature of the "chariot" mentioned in the Book of Mormon in connection with "horses."

Alma 20:6 - Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses and his chariots.

3 Nephi 20:22 - And it came to pass in the *seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies.

Pete, there is only two references that mentions this combination of both horse and chariot in the Book of Mormon and was found in the area of between Zarahemla and Bountiful. Perhaps, this type of mode of transportation may have not been widely used as to other cultures of the old world. When it comes to studying the Book of Mormon, we need always to be mindful of the author’s viewpoint, location of event, what is being presented, why it is being presented, and can it be cross referenced outside of that location.

Another tidbit of information is the war between the Gadianton Robbers who were cut off from the local food source as indicated in 3 Nephi 4:4, it reads:

Therefore, there was no chance for the robbers to plunder and to obtain food, save it were to come up in open battle against the Nephites; and the Nephites being in one body, and having so great a number, and having reserved for themselves provisions, and horses and cattle, and flocks of every kind, that they might subsist for the space of seven years, in the which time they did hope to destroy the robbers from off the face of the land; and thus the eighteenth year did pass away.

Gadianton Robbers subsisted upon others live stock for food. There were numerous as much as the Nephites. Perhaps some animals may have met their fate at their hands and perished from the land. Clearly, from the verse, you can see the Nephites under these harsh conditions that lasted for more than seven years used horses as a food source.

Another case in point, Eurasian sheep is not supposed to have been in pre-Columbian America either. Someone forgot to tell the historians that real sheep's wool was found in a burial site at Cholula, Puebla, Mexico. Analysis of this archaeological setting gave no other indication of dating after the Spaniards arrival in the area.

Finally, what about the Book of Ether's elephant? We do know, both the Mastodons and mammoths once lived throughout North America and part of South America. From today’s zoologists viewpoint and perhaps the Jaredites same viewpoint, they are unquestionably elephants. Our question today is how late they lived upon these lands. Cumons and Cureloms are only mentioned in the Book of Ether, near the beginning of that record. Scientists today agree that the mammoth and mastodon could have survived in favorable locations much later than the time normally assigned for their claimed extinction. Searching fossil records, a mastodon has already been dated as late as pre-Adam 5000 B.C. at Devil's Den, Florida, and around the Great Lakes to 4000 B.C. Another remarkable discovered remains of a butchered mastodon in Ecuador; pottery associated with the find is said to date to after the time of Christ [A.D.].

When we look locally in our own land, there was a discovery of a horse, mammoth and mastodon fossil remains that was radiocarbon dated around 100 B.C. around St. Petersburg, Florida. Then we have the Brea Tar Pits that have several findings of the same. It seems impossible for many to grasp this fact. Again, we are looking at the Prophet Moroni who was abridging Ether writings he held in his possession; condensing two thousand year history into a few plates. We simply don’t have all the records from Jared to Ether time for further clarity of what was brought. It is only mentioned one time in Ether 9:19 and no other location in the scriptures. We can only assume, hinting that all three animals became extinct and perhaps the Jaredites killed off the last of the beasts. We have to note here, the Jaredites might not have been the only people to record the presence of the big animal here upon the land. The North American Indians have recounted legends of great stiff-legged beasts that could not lie down and of an animal with a fifth appendage, which came out of its head. Pete, here is a possibility; these tribes transmitted oral traditions of remembrance with encounters of elephants. Again, it is possible that the mammoth or mastodon were around in Mexico at least as late as 2500 B.C. timeframe. Key here to prove that point, Moroni, who translated the Book of Ether, did not translate these names from the original tongue of the Jaredites only indicates that the animals were probably extinct in his day.

[Hemidakota]

Adding such contribution to the discussion of Jaredite culture, it may be mentioned that press dispatches dated June 13, 1936, announced the discovery, by explorers, of a cave under a ledge in the mountains near Albuquerque, New Mexico, in which there were a hearth of stone, a flint tool and bones of prehistoric animals, such as horses, camels and mastodons, which, scientists say, disappeared from this continent thousands of years ago.

On March 21, 1938, the Associated Press announced that explorers in Death Valley had come across footprints of camels, pigs, one-toed horses and wading birds. Not even a guess was offered concerning the probable remoteness of the time at which those marks were placed where now found.

[Vanhin]

Even the name you mentioned is not a original Hebrew term and was taken from Jared's people account and cannot be considered a Nephite term. Read the Book of Ether.

Further, Zarahemla people translated Jared’s symbols writings into their own language [via Jared’s U&T] and then retranslated into reformed Egyptian by Moroni. There is nothing in the Book of Mormon written in Hebrew. Even Moroni explained why. Crossing one language to another may change the verbiage entirely.

One thing to note is the grouping of animals by the original author [Ether] and Moroni using this same style when condensing Ether’s writing on what was considered important.

[Ether chapter 4 and 9] “…they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms…”

You are not really reading anyone else's posts out here, are you? I get the feeling you didn't even really digest my posts that you are replying to. So, I won't waste too much time writing a very long response to stuff that has already been covered.

They used "reformed Egyptian" characters to write it, yes, but for your information there is lots of Hebrew in the Book of Mormon - because it is a Hebrew record. Hebrew was the natural language of the Nephites, as Moroni explained. There are Hebrew literary devices all throughout the BoM, like chiasmus. Most, if not all, proper names were of Hebrew origin, like "Lehi" for instance, which means "jaw".

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited December 10, 2009 by Vanhin
made a couple of corrections

[bonanzafan]

i think it's okay to disagree, but please don't be arrogant about it. this jewish friend of ours is doing us a favor.

[bonanzafan]

Remember that the writings of Ether occurred shortly after the Tower of Babel. The words you're scrutinizing wouldn't be of Hebraic origin. The translation that Mormon gave would be, but not the proper terms/names/nouns that Ether utilizes.

I always thought these were beasts of burden; or maybe edible. Mmmmm! Cureloms!

Cheers

i have a friend who is jewish, raised jewish in israel to be a rabbi. he converted to the church. his understanding of the book of mormon is so deep. it was written by their people.

[Maya]

How about this: Gomphothere: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

Now they say it was not distict before 400AD!

[KerryShirts]

Hebrew for example has changed very little. Especially written Hebrew.

And yet we have some Hebraisms that are pretty interesting. And remember that the Nephites were able to read the Jaredite records were they not? And these were Hebrew speaking people.

We can also consider as a possibility that the Nephite scribes were using Hebrew terms themselves just like it happens in the English Bible and BoM. The term "Christ" for example was most certainly not used among Hebrew speakers. :)

LOL

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just not gonna stop speculating. There are a lot of semiticisms in the BoM and I think they reveal some interesting things. What are the odds that a "deseret" could in Hebrew be a "speedy flying insect" be just a coincidence?

b'shalom!

Actually, Deseret has a far *stronger* case for being Egyptian, which also fits in the BofM....

[KerryShirts]

For instance, a little ditty I researched on this Deseret theme (and it is time to update it as I have even more materials about this now than I did lo those many years ago when I penned this missive)....

To Bee or Not to Bee, the Deseret Question of the Book of Mormon

[mariam]

Kishkuman.... in reference to your referencing all the languages being confounded.....what about the notion that what was scrambled in our ability to communicate was the decoder so to speak. In other words, it was OUR hearing that was scrambled.....in time we will maybe all HEAR hebrew when we speak to each other. But keep in mind, I'm of the same belief about Hebrew language is the language of Creation..........

mariam

[Maya]

When I was little I always wanted to write from right to left.... I must have been able to read hebrew before I was born....

[Blackmarch]

When I was little I always wanted to write from right to left.... I must have been able to read hebrew before I was born....

or japanese

[WillowTheWhisp]

or Arabic

[mariam]

LOVE THIS BOARD!!!! Just love it!

[ohadba]

I am Jewish and was really interested in this discussion!

Great thoughts!

Visit us at Art-LDS.com

[Giant_Son]

Have we heard from thekabalist in a while? Is he doing OK?

[Hemidakota]

Here's an idea for what a cumom might be:

קום - cum (rise)

עם - am (people)

Could it be an animal that was large enough that several people could ride it? Or that people riding it would rise over others?

Bear...a short four legged tail animal.

[Hemidakota]

Ether 9:19: "And they (the Jaredites) also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms." It is clear from this reference that, completely unlike all post-chariot Central Asian nomadic societies, the horse was not considered a significant animal among the Jaredites, being less useful to the Jaredites than "the elephants and cureloms and cumoms."

Here is an odd statement made by Apostle Orson Pratt concerning a General Conference article, what is a Curelom (see the bold for the answer);

[Delivered in the Old Tabernacle, Sunday, December 27, 1868.
[Reported by David W. Evans.]

There is something very remarkable in connection with the colonization of our Continent by people from that tower. I said they were a righteous people. Perhaps this may surprise some, especially if they have drawn the conclusion that all the people who engaged in building of that tower were wicked. But there were some few families among them who served the Lord their God, and when they learned the decree of Jehovah, that their language was to be confounded, and the people scattered to the four winds of heaven, they had considerable anxiety on the subject. They were anxious that they might be favored of the Lord and that He would lead them to a choice portion of the earth. They made it a subject of earnest prayer, and God heard them, and the language of the righteous portion of the people was not confounded. And God gave them a commandment to go down from the tower to a valley that was northward, called the <ST1:place w:st="on"><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.lds.net/forums/ /><st1:PlaceType alt=</st1:PlaceType>valley of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Nimrod</st1:PlaceName></ST1:place>, named after a mighty hunter who existed in those days. After they had come down into this valley by the command of the Lord they collected seeds and grain of every kind, and animals of almost every description, among which, no doubt, were the elephant and the curelom and the cumom, very huge animals that existed in those days, and after travelling and crossing, we suppose, the sea that was east of where the Tower of Babel stood, and travelling through the wilderness many days, with their flocks and herds, their grain and substance, they eventually came to the great Pacific ocean, on the eastern borders of China or somewhere in that region. They were commanded of the Lord to build vessels. They went to work and constructed eight barges. They did not understand the art of Navigation as we do in these days. They had no astronomical instruments by which they could ascertain the altitude of the sun, or the altitude of the moon and stars, by which they could determine their position on the great and mighty ocean. But the same God who had led them from the Tower of Babel and had gone before them in a bright cloud by day, and had hovered over their camp and had directed them in their journey through the wilderness, was their navigator in crossing the ocean. They entered these eight barges, about the construction of which it may be well to say a few words. A great many opposers of the Book of Mormon, in reading the account of these vessels, have really supposed that there was an insurmountable difficulty connected with the building of these barges because there happened to be a hole in the top, and another hole constructed in the bottom to enable the beings shut up in them to be watertight. These vessels were built, not in the form of a tea saucer as has been represented by some "anti Mormons" in their discussions; but the Book of Mormon informs us that they were peaked at the ends, and enlarged as they came to the middle, and they were tight like a dish on the water, and were very light, like to the lightness of a fowl. They were exceedingly strong, and the length of a tree. This is a phrase very similar to one used by Isaiah who says, "the age of His people shall be as the age of a tree." Isaiah does not say what kind of a tree. It was simply a way the ancients had of comparing a great many things. Now these vessels were so constructed that when furious winds should blow upon the face of the great deep, and the waves should roll mountains high they could without imminent danger plunge beneath the waves, and be brought up again to the surface of the water during tremendous hurricanes and storms. Now to prepare them against these contingencies, and that they might have fresh air for the benefit of the elephants, cureloms or mammoths and many other animals, that perhaps were in them, as well as the human beings they contained, the Lord told them how to construct them in order to receive air, that when they were on the top of the water, which-ever side up their vessels happened to be, it mattered not; they were so constructed that they could ride safely, though bottom upwards and they could open their air holes that happened to be uppermost. Now all our ships at the present day are constructed with holes in the bottom as well as in the top. I have crossed the ocean twelve times, but I never saw a ship yet that did not have a hole in the bottom for the convenience of the passengers, and it is one of the simplest things in the world to have holes in the bottom of a ship if you only have tubes running up sufficiently high above the general water mark. These were so constructed that when the waves were not running too high, air could be admitted through unstopping the holes which happened to be uppermost. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 12)

[stevengodell]

I have to agree with you regarding their nature. While bees are certainly useful, wasps would not be so much, and the Hebraic interpretation of the poisonous horn in FRONT would apply to neither.

I, too, have understood the verse to refer to beasts of burden and would guess these exotic two to be mammoths and mastodons, both of which are evidenced to have been concurrent with man on the American continents, both north and south. They would especially be useful to carry, pull, raise and build. As another here has said, the horns (tusks) would be dangerous if not trimmed ot blunted, especially.

[stevengodell]

I have to agree with you regarding their nature. While bees are certainly useful, wasps would not be so much, and the Hebraic interpretation of the poisonous horn in FRONT would apply to neither.

I, too, have understood the verse to refer to beasts of burden and would guess these exotic two to be mammoths and mastodons, both of which are evidenced to have been concurrent with man on the American continents, both north and south. They would especially be useful to carry, pull, raise and build. As another here has said, the horns (tusks) would be dangerous if not trimmed ot blunted, especially.

[stevengodell]

You know, as a scientist, I find it interesting that there isn't (as far as I'm aware) any archeological records of horses or elephants in the New World (I'm picking the ones we can identify).

Not that this shakes my testimony; I'll just be excited when science catches up (in a very small, insignificant way) to religious history.

Thanks for the great thread, thekabilist!

Cheers

Actually, there are numerous finds recorded by non-Mormons. A brief search of the net will bring them up. I have posted some on my blog at deeperthings.webs.com. This link will list several in that vein and a few others that could be of interest to you.

Book of Momon Authenticity - Deeper Things

Steven

[stevengodell]

Well the Nephites themselves did speak Hebrew, and Moroni claimed that their record would have had no imperfections, had they been able to write it in Hebrew characters instead of reformed Egyptian (Mormon 9:32-34). But we cannot decipher from the text exactly what the Jaredites spoke. We just know that the Lord did not confound their language during the tower of Babel (Ether 1:33-37). Some have opined that this meant that they kept the language of Noah, which presumably is Adamic.

We also know that a seer with interpreters was needed to translate record of the Jaredites, which Moroni abridged as the Book of Ether. (Check out Mosiah 8, it's good stuff.)

Regards,

Vanhin

Undeniable Evidence of Muslims and Jews in Precolumbian America - Deeper Things

In this link find a post I did on Hebrews and Muslims in America. There is strong WRITTEN evidence they wrote in Hebrew, as well as reformed Egyptian, as the Los Lunas Stone and the Bat Creek Stone would signify. Also, an article years ago in Reader's Digest, called Who Really discovered America? tells of a stone found with the words, "We are Sidonian warriors...etc." Now, the possibility is that the Amazon or the Mississippi would be renamed river Sidon, as Hugh Nibley would attest possible in his work Lehi in the Wilderness and the World of the Jaredites. But it could also signify trans-oceanic voyages with return trips, as is speculated about Solomon's fleets and the gold of Ophir (possibly in America).