Things happen for a reason?

[justaname]

There have been a few events in the news over the last couple of years that have really had a large spiritual impact on me. Often when there is a tragic event that unfolds, there is a constant outpouring of sympathy and empathy to affected family and friends that typically include comments like, "It was just his time", "Heavenly Father had a higher purpose for her", or "They had fulfilled their calling on earth." You get my drift.

Along the same lines, I hear people discuss the concept of not being tried/tempted beyond what we can handle. I know there is a scripture or two that discuss this.

So, let me see if I can logically pour my thoughts about these two concepts out.

First, do we really have a map laid out for us that dictates what tragedies/trials await us? Is there really a predetermined time of our death? I know God is omnipotent, and does know what trials await us as well as when our time on earth will end. But I believe he knows this only because he is omnipotent, not because he is dictating and planning them. This is where I might have a hard time explaining myself. For those that believe that he does call us home, and chooses our place and time of death, are those recognizing that we have agency? If God really does call us home because of whatever reason, wouldnt that take away my agency to make certain choices? Lets say my time is tomorrow, and I will perish in a car accident. If I choose to stay at home tomorrow instead of go to work, and it is "my time", would God smite me with a heart attack or aneurysm? I hope that makes sense.

Now lets talk about trials. We have heard over and over that we will not be tried/tempted beyond what we can handle. Someone can quote the scripture(s) for me if you would like. It seems to me that the way this scripture has been used and cited in lessons and talks has made it sound like there are certain things that certain individuals canNOT handle and therefore will not be tempted or tried in those ways. I guess I feel I have had an epiphany about this. No, Im not attempting to reveal anything for the body of the church, but feel I have gained an understanding of this doctrine. Perhaps its just for me and no one else. Right now, the thought of losing my wife and children sounds completely unbearable. Right now, I dont think I could make it through that kind of challenge. But, I also believe that Christ did suffer for all mankind, in every way. I believe that there is no trial or temptation he did not rise above during the atonement. So, with that being understood, if I team up with the Savior, is there really ANYTHING that I could not overcome? So is this scriptural reference really saying that we can overcome ANYTHING? Or is it saying that there just are some people that will never be tried to the extent of someone else because some people are just stronger than others?

Ok, last question/comment. For those that believe that 'everything happens for a reason', including time of death and certain trials, how does that actually bring comfort to you? If I were to actually lose my wife and children in a tragic accident, and someone told me "it was just their time" or "Heavenly Father has called them home", I think I would be irate. . . irate with God. Would he really take them from me? Why would he do that? I feel like not really anything happens for a reason here. Tragedies and trials are all a result of agency and coincidence. I take comfort knowing that I am not specifically tried and challenged, and that my time of death will be determined by chance. Otherwise, I would feel that I have no agency, and God would be a God that takes regardless of how they are needed here.

What are your thoughts?

[justaname]

Things* Sorry, I mispelled the title.

[Misshalfway]

I don't know if everything has a reason. What I do know is that finding meaning in the suffering helps. Sometimes things do happen for a reason even if its just to teach us to have faith in the ressurection or to give God an opening to show His power. Maybe the meaning doesn't need to be particularly profound other than to test and expand our faith.

It's hard to understand the mind and will of God. And even if one does understand a measure of it, that doesn't mean we won't feel the intensity of the loss or the human emotions that may follow. Somehow I think God understands this kind of anger and I don't think its sinful to pass thru grieving processes.

I do think that there is meaning in all aspects of earth life. There is so much to be learned and so much education just by experiencing it. In this way, I think God uses life to teach us and pain is certainly an effective teacher. But I don't think God interfers with agency. I think He intervenes in our lives to try to teach us how to use our agency. And I think He tries to help us understand what all this "experience" is for as He turns it all for our good.

[FairChild]

I don't think God takes children or other people away from us. Rather I think they leave us because it is their turn to go beyond the veil to do work and progress in ways they could not do if they were still in an imperfected body. Just as I came to earth to gain a body, I have to die and lose my old imperfect body so that I may have the chance for greater growth and to gain a perfected body. I can understand being upset because you can't be with someone because of death, but God does not take people away as a punishment or to teach us a lesson. It is just a step forward just as birth is towards greater perfection.

[ttribe]

I'm not a fatalist...somethings just happen. We are placed into a world in which we experience some events which are specifically designed for us individually, but much of what we experience (IMO) is just part of the flows of life. To the extent that there is a "reason", it is that we are to be tried in all things - both those tests which were prepared specifically for us, and how we react to those things which were not.

[WmLee]

I believe that my Heavenly Father is one of order and of laws. When we accepted our “free” agency we also accepted the possibilities that came with it. We may be born into physical bodies that are less than perfect. Some may not work quiet right; there may be a few mortal flaws. We agreed to live with that chance.

With our agency we understood every had the same. They also had the agency to do cruel and thoughtless things that may end our mortal life. We agreed to that.

Life is not a crap shoot. We understood the mortal body could develop with flaws; it’s mortal. Sometimes people do stupid and thoughtless things that could end this life. it happens.

Can our Heavenly Father change any of that at any time? Sure, and sometimes it happens. Why some and not others, why some and not all? That I do not know. But I do know that I raised my arm to the square and agreed for this journey. I will do my best, as He expects from me, until the day I stand, (kneel cause I don’t think I could do anything else) before Him and await His approval and welcome home.

[Traveler]

The only thing I can think of that is worse than going through a great loss or tragedy with purpose and reason is to go through a great loss or tragedy without a purpose or reason.

The Traveler

[pam]

We've had this discussion in the past. I don't believe everything that happens is for a reason.

When a very close friend of mine was killed in a horrible car accident when we were in high school; at his funeral the Stake President spoke and said: "For those of you that think it was just his time, it wasn't. It was an accident."

God would not cause someone to lose his life in a horrible accident because "it's just his time."

[Misshalfway]

God would not cause someone to lose his life in a horrible accident because "it's just his time."

I am not quite sure I agree with that.

[hordak]

We've had this discussion in the past. I don't believe everything that happens is for a reason.

When a very close friend of mine was killed in a horrible car accident when we were in high school; at his funeral the Stake President spoke and said: "For those of you that think it was just his time, it wasn't. It was an accident."

God would not cause someone to lose his life in a horrible accident because "it's just his time."

I though i had brought this up before. I recognize your response.

OP. Things happen for a reason. That reason is free agency. Not only our own, but others as well

If Person X was "called home" and it "was meant to be" should we hold the drunk driver responsible when he was clearly just an instrument of God will?

Should one strive to quite smoking, continue to exercise, eat healthy, wear a seat belt, helmet etc. if there is some predetermined date of death that cannot be changed?

[pam]

I am not quite sure I agree with that.

It's okay if you disagree with me..but it's what I believe.

[beefche]

I am not quite sure I agree with that.

Miss 1/2, would you elaborate, please?

[pam]

I though i had brought this up before. I recognize your response.

OP. Things happen for a reason. That reason is free agency. Not only our own, but others as well

If Person X was "called home" and it "was meant to be" should we hold the drunk driver responsible when he was clearly just an instrument of God will?

Should one strive to quite smoking, continue to exercise, eat healthy, wear a seat belt, helmet etc. if there is some predetermined date of death that cannot be changed?

I agree with you in the instances you provide. It is free agency. That's why I state my opinion in that someone that is killed in a car accident due to the negligence or driving drunk is not dead because it's "their time." They are dead because of the agency of that other person. They died because someone chose to use that agency in the wrong way. Not because it's their time.

[bmy-]

We have heard over and over that we will not be tried/tempted beyond what we can handle.

There is nothing that we cannot endure or handle as you mentioned. I do not think that the Atonement plays much of a role in it, if any, though. I do not believe that we are preordained to perform a specific tasks or anything of that nature.

I think we make the best of the hand we are dealt.. the same way God does. He just has the advantage of looking into the aquarium from the outside.

[Dravin]

There is nothing that we cannot endure or handle as you mentioned. I do not think that the Atonement plays much of a role in it, if any, though. I do not believe that we are preordained to perform a specific tasks or anything of that nature.

Actually we are preordained/foreordained, just not predestined, of course that is probably how you meant the word, in which case I do agree.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Dravin

[justaname]

I totally agree with the comment about accepting free agency before hand and therefore accepting all the things that COULD happen to us while we are here. I think that's spot on.

It looks like from the responses this has gotten, there are some that do believe that there are times when God specifically does call people home at certain times. I dont believe that, but Im totally comfortable with people disagreeing. If you do disagree, can you please cite an example or your thought process as to why you think some people are plucked from the Earth because 'it was their time'?

[Misshalfway]

Miss 1/2, would you elaborate, please?

Hmmm.... well I can try. I guess I am not completely convinced that God doesn't ever influence anything that appears harsh to us.

I had a friend my high school senior year who told us all she had this feeling that she would not live to go to college in the Fall. We of course comforted her. But she insisted that she knew in her heart she would die and that her death would be some kind of accident.

That summer I heard news of her funeral. She had been driving down Payson Canyon with her boyfriend. He fell asleep at the wheel, she was thrown from the car, and hit her head. She told him to tell her family she loved them and then she died.

Pam said,

God would not cause someone to lose his life in a horrible accident because "it's just his time."

I guess I am just not sure I can completely agree with that. That's all.

[pam]

I believe people can have premonitions about things. Joseph Smith had a premonition about his own death. Joseph B. Wirthlin had a premonition he would never play football again. But when they actually happen, I still don't believe they happened for a reason in the cases of death. In the case you cited, it was the boyfriend falling asleep at the wheel. Im sure he knew he was tired but he chose or used his agency to drive anyway. Please don't misunderstand that I'm putting blame here. Just using it as an example that sometimes the choices people make affect others..but I still don't believe it was because it was their time to go.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I can only respond to the first question about death.

I'm part of the hybrid school of thought, that says that God at times, will remove people from this earth for the greater good, and will also allow mankind's actions to take people from this world prematurely.

Here are my sources of inspiration on this. First is a talk by Spencer W. Kimball, a former prophet in the LDs Church called Death -- Tragedy or Destiny? If you can find a copy of it, it will be illuminating, perhaps more than I can say here.

In it, Kimball describes people being "prematurely rushed into the Spirit world" and other statements that suggest that sometimes, life just happens and people are removed out of sheer accidents and the random effects of free agency.

My second source of information on this is the scriptures -- there is evidence at times that God intentionally removes people from this earth. A case in point, he commanded Nephi, the prophet, to slay Laban, who would not give up important scriptures to Nephi -- important for teaching millions of descendents about God. In this case, God used his power to work though Nephi to slay Laban, and thus make the important scriptures available to Nephi's children. God said "It is better that one man die, than an entire people perish in unbelief" (paraphrased)." God was proactive in removing Laban from the earth -- no question.

God also eliminated large quantities of people from the earth during the time of Noah due to their wickedness by sending a flood - a deliberate act of God meant to purge the earth of the wicked.

So, how do you tell the difference? How do you know when death is simply tragedy, or destiny? My answer -- you normally don't.

What matters is how you face it -- that you don't get bitter about God about it, that you learn to appreciate the empathy that is creates in you for others. I think some, depending on God's will, may receive revelation in prayer about why such things happen, but I suspect this is the exception and not the rule. In the, end it comes down to facing these things with humility, relying on God to help you get through it, and using it as another means to perfect oneself as someone who is willing to suffer whatever life throws at them, with grace, as Christ did....

Edited December 1, 2009 by mormonmusic

[Misshalfway]

So you don't think God puts timelines on our lives? Didn't He tell Joseph Smith that his days on the earth were numbered? I gotta remember where that D&C scripture is. I used to be better at this. (Grumble)

Sometimes I think like you are speaking and feel God is allowing life/agency/nature to play out according to the initial design of it all. But then I see that God is also in the details and very specifically sometimes. I think He has his purposes for acting both ways. I think that is why I said I couldn't completely agree. I think that is because I don't understand all of it yet.

[pam]

I will have to agree with you on that Miss 1/2. I don't understand it all either. Again, I was just stating my opinion on my own personal experiences and feelings on the subject.

[Misshalfway]

Yeah....here it is.

D&C 122:9 "Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known and thy years shall not be numbered less. Fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever."

[Misshalfway]

I will have to agree with you on that Miss 1/2. I don't understand it all either. Again, I was just stating my opinion on my own personal experiences and feelings on the subject.

Which is totally cool. Thanks for your wisdom as always. I don't mean to argue. I guess I am just pondering outloud.

[pam]

You aren't arguing. I could be wrong. There's a first time for everything. lol