Alcohol in the Word of Wisdom

[personne]

hum, hi, i'm affraid to talk with you, here. I do not understand why, in 'evangile ? you cannot take of alcohol.. I'm under the hand a verse which says the opposite.. Who must me believe? i'm stupid sorry...

[Guest mysticmorini]

the switch from wine to water had a lot to do with the church aligning itself with prohibition.

[Guest Godless]

Then there is "mild drinks":

Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain. (Doctrine and Covenants 89)

Beer!

Vanhin

That one's been addressed here and here.

[pam]

This topic has been discussed so many times, I'm not sure what else can be said.

[Guest mysticmorini]

This topic has been discussed so many times, I'm not sure what else can be said.

i smell a thread getting locked!

[Moksha]

I am uncertain whether the topic of Vodka Cream Spaghetti Sauce has been discussed, and if it has been discussed, it would be interesting to hear if a definitive conclusion was reached.

[WillowTheWhisp]

This topic has been discussed so many times, I'm not sure what else can be said.

It may have been done to death in the past but there could be new members (of the church or of the forum) who have not read or participated in those discussions. Sometimes the topics move so fast that I miss loads of them when I check for 'new posts'.

[WillowTheWhisp]

hum, hi, i'm affraid to talk with you, here. I do not understand why, in 'evangile ? you cannot take of alcohol.. I'm under the hand a verse which says the opposite.. Who must me believe? i'm stupid sorry...

No, you are not stupid. In the early days wine was used but this was later changed to water. We even have wine mentioned in the hymn book. One thing some of us are not clear about, myself included, is when the change was made.

[personne]

[color = "DarkOrchid"] Non, vous n'êtes pas stupide. Dans les premiers jours du vin a été utilisé mais ce fut plus tard changé à l'eau. Nous avons même des vins mentionnés dans le livre de cantiques. Une chose que certains d'entre nous ne sont pas claires à propos, moi y compris, c'est quand le changement a été effectué.

[/ Color] [/ QUOTE]

hello mister, i read that it was forbidden, your quality of life is very healthy enough alcohol.. , i respect, To remplace wine by water it's a problem of rentability ?

yes I would like to know when (the?) change was established. if you have sources, make me sign. Thanks a lot. Au revoir Monsieur.

[pam]

It may have been done to death in the past but there could be new members (of the church or of the forum) who have not read or participated in those discussions. Sometimes the topics move so fast that I miss loads of them when I check for 'new posts'.

Which is why I set up the thread for references which is on the main page of the LDS Discussion forum. So people don't have to do a search.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/21760-lds-net-references-word-wisdom.html

[Clarity_over_agreement]

as a disclaimer this is not doctrine but it is a logical argument that seems to fit.

So the WoW chapter of the doctrine and covenants was originally given as a suggestion for the "weak" saints and not as a general commandment. From the first few versus of the word of wisdom revelation we read:

"A Word of Wisdom for the benefit of the council of high priests... To be sent; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and word of wisdom, showing forth the order and the will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last day. Given for principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all the saints, who are or can be called saints." D&C 89:1-3

It was later that the WoW became a commandment. I would assume that this is the reason that it is a suggestion in the scriptures but a commandment in the more recent could be the following:

1. Many of the early saints drank, smoked, chewed, and drank coffee and teas. To give a commandment to stop all addictive substances right away might be the cause for much damnation among the saints in that they were unable to stop cold turkey the use of many of these substances. Therefore it began as a suggestion to wane the saints off of their dependencies.

2.That the church needed to set a standard for all, a macro standard. You can drink small amounts of wine(alcohol) without becoming drunk. As a suggestion it would be too difficult to manage at the micro level, when man A drinks a certain amount and his bishop is ok with it and then if he moves a different bishop finds the man unworthy for drinking the same amount that the previous bishop was ok with.

It could be one or the other or maybe both.

[hordak]

as a disclaimer this is not doctrine but it is a logical argument that seems to fit.

1. Many of the early saints drank, smoked, chewed, and drank coffee and teas. To give a commandment to stop all addictive substances right away might be the cause for much damnation among the saints in that they were unable to stop cold turkey the use of many of these substances. Therefore it began as a suggestion to wane the saints off of their dependencies.

Problem with this is we are a convert church. If we were like the (Amish 99% or the members were born in) it would make sense. But looking at it like is to say Joseph, prophet of the Restoration, the man who saw angels, translated the BoM, the papyri, who received the revelation and saw God and Jesus in person wouldn't be able to give this stuff up. Potential convert Bob, is

(Not just him obviously but Tobacco has become more addictive, Coffee, a horrible tasting drink in the 1800s is now made with all sorts of great tasting spices, creams and syrups (ala starbucks). Alcohol comes in better tasting forms as well.

There is no reason to think it would be harder for member x in 1880 to give up bitter black coffee, then for member y in 2009 to give up sweet tasting double mocha frapachinoes.

[personne]

comme un avertissement ce n'est pas une doctrine, mais il s'agit d'un argument logique qui semble appropriée.

Ainsi, le chapitre WoW de la Doctrine et Alliances a été accordée à l'origine comme une suggestion pour les saints "faibles" et non comme un commandement général. De la première quelques versus de la parole de révélation, la sagesse, nous lisons:

*" Une parole de sagesse pour le bénéfice du conseil des grands prêtres ... Pour être envoyée; pas par commandement ou de contrainte [/ B], mais par la révélation et la parole de sagesse, manifestant l'ordre et la volonté de Dieu dans le salut temporel de tous les saints du dernier jour. Donné pour principe de promesses, adaptée à la capacité des plus faibles et les plus faibles de tous les saints, qui sont ou peuvent être appelés saints. [/ I] " D & A 89:1-3

*C'est plus tard que le WoW est devenu un commandement. Je suppose que c'est pour cette raison qu'il s'agit d'une suggestion dans les Ecritures, mais un commandement dans la plus récente pourrait être la suivante:

1. Bon nombre des premiers saints bu, fumé, mâchés, et buvaient du café et des thés. Pour donner un commandement d'arrêter toutes les substances addictives tout de suite pourrait être la cause de la damnation beaucoup parmi les saints dans la mesure où ils ont été incapables d'arrêter la dinde froide l'utilisation de plusieurs de ces substances. Par conséquent, il a commencé comme une suggestion à décliner les saints hors de leurs dépendances.

2.That l'église avait besoin de fixer une norme pour tous, un niveau macro. Vous pouvez boire de petites quantités de vin (alcool), sans devenir ivre. À titre de suggestion, il serait trop difficile à gérer au niveau micro, quand un homme boit un certain montant et son évêque est d'accord avec elle et puis si il se déplace d'un évêque différents trouve l'homme indigne de boire la même quantité que l'évêque précédent était OK avec.

Il pourrait être l'un ou l'autre ou peut-être les deux. [/ QUOTE]

I see that you are right, it is pointed out other religion: Our creator warn us against too much alcohol, teach us for our benefit. God wishes this he has of better as us, he gave to the men of the wine to make them happy of oil to give them good mine and some bread to return them force. Thanks. dur de se faire comprendre en anglais.

[Suzie]

It was easier back then for the enemies of the Church to add poison to wine (due to the color), they couldn't do the same thing with water. Joseph Smith was poisoned once and his jaw was dislocated.

[Clarity_over_agreement]

These are just 2 possible scenarios. God could have made it a commandment right from the beginning. Instead section 89 could have begun with "thus commandeth the Lord".

[bmy-]

It went from moderation -> abstinence. It took quite a while too.