Confrontation at church

[havejoy]

We have a couple in our ward who are unable to take care of themselves. The church and the members do a lot for them. At this point, she is on O2 full time and he doesn't seem to be in very good health either. They are both delusional, him more so than her. He believes he works for the CIA and the DEA. He believes he's been in the Army in special services even though there is no record of him having ever registered for the Armed Forces in any capacity. She seems to have a better grasp of reality but backs him up a lot.

The problem is that they have had a lot of dogs, up to 48 at one time when I was there. The dogs are always in bad shape physically. They don't have money to buy food so the dogs starve a lot.

Two weeks ago they had 14 dogs and the man called me to come get 8 of them because he said the Bishop wouldn't get them any more food until he got rid of some of his dogs.

These dogs were completely hairless and covered in scabs from sarcoptic mange. They were also nearly starved to death, in fact 6 of those eight have died in spite of food and medical care...it was just too late due to secondary infections.

The police were going to arrest them for animal cruelty but I explained their mental problems and was given a chance to go to them and ask them to give up the other 6 dogs which she did. He wasn't home at the time.

Two weeks later, today, they cornered me at the end of Sacrament and demanded I get their dogs back. They made a bunch of threats and scared my grandchildren until some other members came over and distracted them long enough for me to get away. The woman had a seizure at the end of church and an ambulance had to be called but it gave me a chance to get to my car before they could corner me again.

All this to ask how should I handle it if/when it happens again next week? Today I just kept saying I understood they were upset and I was sorry.

[pam]

Do you have the name of the police officer you spoke with? Perhaps you could give them that information and tell them they would need to contact that person instead.

[john doe]

Smile and walk away. There's nothing you can do to appease crazy people.

[havejoy]

Do you have the name of the police officer you spoke with? Perhaps you could give them that information and tell them they would need to contact that person instead.

There were 4 police and a photographer that came who were called by the animal control officer. I asked the animal control officer to write them a letter and she said she mailed it out Monday afternoon but this man said he hasn't gotten it yet because the enemy keeps stealing his mail.

Do I just push past them and walk away? They scare me enough that I don't want them behind me.

[Just_A_Guy]

Two words: protective order.

It isn't just sane people who can be dangerous.

[ferretrunner]

It sounds like they need more help than the Church can provide. Perhaps it is no longer possible for them to live independently. Call Adult Protective Services. Given what you've described here, at the very least, they need an evaluation.

[MorningStar]

Call the police. That's what I would do.

[need4peace]

My thoughts -

Maybe dementia is what one or both of them are suffering from so that could explain confusion etc. Maybe one or both of them are one of the 10% of people who suffer dementia that have psychosis, such as hallucinations, delusions, or paranoia and even hostility.

They are not in control of their behaviour because they have 'forgotten' the rules of proper behaviour.

I think that instead of taking out protection orders against them or approaching the police etc they need help from aged care specialists to do an assessment on them. (sadly they would probably be too confused to remember there was an order in place and seeing the police may cause them more anxiety)

If these elderly members see you as a threat it would be best to stay away to avoid causing more anxiety to them. It would be good to put their names on the Temple Prayer Roll and ask other members to visit instead. They need lots of TLC. Don't take it personally.

[josh85]

I think that they are criminals.

They had 48 dogs in their house. Even if they have mental problems, they did probably not have the issues by the time they started to "collect" poor animals.

Another thing:

How can you be in the position to have so many dogs and not be able to pay tithing, but asking for money from the Church?

In my opinion it is a big crime to treat animals like that. The dogs don`t know why they lose their hair or why the don`t have enough to drink.

I would ignore these people and call the police.

And although they are still members of our church it seemed that they were kind of evil right from the beginning.

Like I said:

48 dogs? That is terrible.

I have two dogs and I love them so much as if they are my little brothers.

[havejoy]

It sounds like they need more help than the Church can provide. Perhaps it is no longer possible for them to live independently. Call Adult Protective Services. Given what you've described here, at the very least, they need an evaluation.

The Bishop is working on this. He told me he's sad because she'll be going into a hospice facility next week and he wants to get the man in a psychiatric facility but they can't be together because they have such different needs.

It may take a while to get everything done to get the man taken care of though.

[havejoy]

Call the police. That's what I would do.

I did. I had to take a woman home during the second hour so I call ed the police on my way back to the church. They are doing extra drive by's of the rescue facility. Not suprisingly, they already knew of these people.

[havejoy]

My thoughts -

Maybe dementia is what one or both of them are suffering from so that could explain confusion etc. Maybe one or both of them are one of the 10% of people who suffer dementia that have psychosis, such as hallucinations, delusions, or paranoia and even hostility.

They are not in control of their behaviour because they have 'forgotten' the rules of proper behaviour.

I think that instead of taking out protection orders against them or approaching the police etc they need help from aged care specialists to do an assessment on them. (sadly they would probably be too confused to remember there was an order in place and seeing the police may cause them more anxiety)

If these elderly members see you as a threat it would be best to stay away to avoid causing more anxiety to them. It would be good to put their names on the Temple Prayer Roll and ask other members to visit instead. They need lots of TLC. Don't take it personally.

Both of them are in their early 60's but from what I've heard from their children they've always been this way. I'm not angry at them in any way as I know they aren't entirely responsible for their actions. I call the Temple every Tuesday morning with a few names and have kept their names on the prayer roll for as long as I've known them.

I know things are in the works to take care of everything in the next few months. Our Bishop is retired and is trying hard to get them taken care of. I just wonder what to do at church next time they confront me. I don't want them to scare the kids again or cause a scene.

[havejoy]

I think that they are criminals.

They had 48 dogs in their house. Even if they have mental problems, they did probably not have the issues by the time they started to "collect" poor animals.

Another thing:

How can you be in the position to have so many dogs and not be able to pay tithing, but asking for money from the Church?

In my opinion it is a big crime to treat animals like that. The dogs don`t know why they lose their hair or why the don`t have enough to drink.

I would ignore these people and call the police.

And although they are still members of our church it seemed that they were kind of evil right from the beginning.

Like I said:

48 dogs? That is terrible.

I have two dogs and I love them so much as if they are my little brothers.

They don't have much income to pay tithing on. When I was RS president we helped her get on disability and forced him to file for medicare.

They will not be getting the dogs back under any circumstances. The police will just arrest them if they show up.

One of the problems we have is that they live in a community that is outside any city limits. It's full of folks who don't do well in society, trash in every yard, broken down cars everywhere, houses in various stages of falling down, etc.

This community had it's own mayor, police force, fire dept. and everything until about a18 months ago when the feds came in and busted the entire city council, mayor and 3 person police force for running a drug ring. They haven't been replaced. That's the big reason they were willing for me to go and ask for the dogs. Nobody has jurisdiction except the state and it's apparently a big pain to get them involved.

What a mess.

[Bini]

I think that they are criminals.

They had 48 dogs in their house. Even if they have mental problems, they did probably not have the issues by the time they started to "collect" poor animals.

Another thing:

How can you be in the position to have so many dogs and not be able to pay tithing, but asking for money from the Church?

Typically in these situations, people don't "collect" animals along the way, the population is increased by the breeding of their initial two or three animals. So I can't stress enough to everyone SPAY or NEUTER your animals! If you are not apart of a legitimately recognised association of specialised breeders—YOU ARE A BACKYARD BREEDER—regardless if your animal is registered with papers. Most backyard breeders DO sell litters that are registered and that is where unfortunately many people buy their pets.

Havejoy, my shift starts very soon.. So I'll come back with hopefully some helpful advice :]

[havejoy]

Thanks everyone. Bini, you're right about how they got all these dogs. They are all from an original black mouth cur and more recently black mouth and chihuahua mixed. They don't try to sell the dogs but have resisted my efforts to get them spayed and neutered, even when I offered to pay for it.

[john doe]

And although they are still members of our church it seemed that they were kind of evil right from the beginning.

Evil? I doubt it. In need of mental health care? Seems more likely.

[havejoy]

These people aren't evil, just sad.

I've asked a friend to sit with me next Sunday during Sacrament and to take my grandchildren to Primary immediately after the closing prayer.

I've asked another friend to have her husband, a gentle giant of a man, to be aware that I may need help if they confront me again. He'll try to make sure they go to class so they won't follow me to the library.

That's all I can think of to do so nobody gets upset at church.

[Guest mormonmusic]

If you're in fear of your personal safety and the impact on your grandchildren, I might consider going to a different Ward until this blows over. Pass this on to the priesthood leader or ward leader you report to and let them know you're uncomfortable at Church given these delusional people's behavior and that someone should take over. Let the Priesthood leaders or the Bishopric handle it from here, and even meet with the people involved.

Then, stay away for a couple weeks until this blows over -- attend a different Ward. These are the kinds of situations that I find draining at Church -- where the needs of the people go well beyond what we can reasonably be expected to do with volunteer help. And when our efforts are repaid with unpleasant consequences.

You sound like you might live in one of these wards where the needs outstrip the resources....I live in one of those too and have had to distance myself from it for a while to get my life back again.

Edited February 1, 2010 by mormonmusic

[Wisc]

Tell him all his dogs are drug trafficking communist. That way Mr CIA/DEA will kill or deport them all. You gotta fight cRaZy with CrAzY man!!!

[havejoy]

If you're in fear of your personal safety and the impact on your grandchildren, I might consider going to a different Ward until this blows over. Pass this on to the priesthood leader or ward leader you report to and let them know you're uncomfortable at Church given these delusional people's behavior and that someone should take over. Let the Priesthood leaders or the Bishopric handle it from here, and even meet with the people involved.

Then, stay away for a couple weeks until this blows over -- attend a different Ward. These are the kinds of situations that I find draining at Church -- where the needs of the people go well beyond what we can reasonably be expected to do with volunteer help. And when our efforts are repaid with unpleasant consequences.

You sound like you might live in one of these wards where the needs outstrip the resources....I live in one of those too and have had to distance myself from it for a while to get my life back again.

I'm not in fear, just concerned. I'm the meetinghouse librarian right now so it would be a hardship on a lot of people if I weren't there to have the library open before Sacrament and before Primary. Also, the next closest ward is about an hour away. This is Texas, y'all.

If things get weird next week it may help the Bishop get this guy into a mental health facility. I don't know. I just think Church is a bad place for a confrontation.

[havejoy]

Tell him all his dogs are drug trafficking communist. That way Mr CIA/DEA will kill or deport them all. You gotta fight cRaZy with CrAzY man!!!

The silly part of my personality likes this. They don't have any dogs anymore though so it wouldn't work anyway.

[Honor]

The silly part of my personality likes this. They don't have any dogs anymore though so it wouldn't work anyway.

While I feel bad for laughing at it, I was kinda thinking something along those same lines. Looking shifty eyed and saying, "We can't talk now. They're listening!"

Anyone else wanna join us in hell?

[GaySaint]

Tell them the CIA needed the dogs for a special mission :)

[havejoy]

That might work since we sent 4 of the remaining dogs to a shelter in a different town.

[talisyn]

Tell him all his dogs are drug trafficking communist. That way Mr CIA/DEA will kill or deport them all. You gotta fight cRaZy with CrAzY man!!!

I had a similar idea, but it was along the lines of telling them that they said they needed the dogs put into protection so that the KGB couldn't put little recording devices on them and thus bring down the presidency