What do people think of LDS members selling alcohol as a bartender/bar owner?

[coyotemoon722]

Topic.

[hordak]

The WoW is a test of obedience. A covenant made by members. A Mormon serving liqueur is like a Sikh who works at Gillette.

[bytebear]

Because we are under covenant does not mean we cannot accommodate those who have no such restrictions.

[coyotemoon722]

Because we are under covenant does not mean we cannot accommodate those who have no such restrictions.

Right, but if our mission on earth is to teach the gospel of Christ in order for people to be saved so that we may reunite with Heavenly Father, isn't giving them alcohol causing them to turn away from the Tree of Life and casting them into the dark mist of the world? (Not to mention fueling a destructive behavior that could easily spiral into a destruction of their life)

[RipplecutBuddha]

This is one of those "avoid the very appearance of evil" situations. Even if you don't drink, what would people think if they saw you working at a bar, or knew you owned one?

IMHO it's best to leave the entire environment alone if at all possible. It's too easy to let the temptation wear you down.

[Wingnut]

I think it's a personal choice. Whether or not I might look down on a person for it would depend more on how they were in the rest of their life, outside the barroom. The thing that would me concern me most is that being in a bar as much as that occupation would require could be spiritually destructive after consistent, repetitive exposure.

[Guest Godless]

I think it's completely unacceptable and a very irresponsible business practice. You shouldn't sell something that you have little or no knowledge of.

[bytebear]

Right, but if our mission on earth is to teach the gospel of Christ in order for people to be saved so that we may reunite with Heavenly Father, isn't giving them alcohol causing them to turn away from the Tree of Life and casting them into the dark mist of the world? (Not to mention fueling a destructive behavior that could easily spiral into a destruction of their life)

Not necessarily. If the alternative to responsible drinking is to have it go underground where it will be further abused, wouldn't it be better to have a responsible bar owner who won't allow underage drinking or binge drinking.

[coyotemoon722]

I think it's a personal choice. Whether or not I might look down on a person for it would depend more on how they were in the rest of their life, outside the barroom. The thing that would me concern me most is that being in a bar as much as that occupation would require could be spiritually destructive after consistent, repetitive exposure.

So you don't care about the alcohol victims? Just if the person making a buck off of other people's destructive addictions is good in the rest of their life? Hmm...

[coyotemoon722]

Not necessarily. If the alternative to responsible drinking is to have it go underground where it will be further abused, wouldn't it be better to have a responsible bar owner who won't allow underage drinking or binge drinking.

It's a fact that alcohol is addictive. Many people have addictive tendencies and if you served someone their first drink, you could be the one introducing them to the thing that will ultimately be their undoing.

Yes, they could've gotten that first drink on their own, but I'm sure that's the logic that most go through. And do you want to be the force of good, and uplifting, or evil and spiritually corroding?

[pam]

Let me throw this out. This isn't about alcohol but along the same line. What about those families who have been tobacco growers for generations?

[bytebear]

It's a fact that alcohol is addictive. Many people have addictive tendencies and if you served someone their first drink, you could be the one introducing them to the thing that will ultimately be their undoing.

Yes, they could've gotten that first drink on their own, but I'm sure that's the logic that most go through. And do you want to be the force of good, and uplifting, or evil and spiritually corroding?

Did you know that Brigham Young allowed (and sometimes encouraged) brothels in Deseret because he knew the non-Mormon miners, trappers and mountain men were better off having an outlet for their urges than having them harass and molest the women of the region? Was he evil? or was he practical? The devil would have us remove all temptation so we cannot sin. God would allow us free will. We are not to be a "force" of good, but an example of choice.

[NeuroTypical]

Could I ask for a source on that, please?

[bytebear]

Jeffrey Nichols / Prostitution, Polygamy, and Power: Salt Lake City, 1847-1918

[tubaloth]

Isn't this selling Sin. Yes it is in the eye of the beholder.

Whats the difference then trying to get somebody else to smoke? Or Look at Pornography? The list probably could go on and on.

Like time I checked wickedness never was happiness. If you know something is bad (sin) why would you give it to others to partake of it? or make it available for them to partake of it?

[WillowTheWhisp]

How about someone (me) who is married to a non-member who likes a cup of tea in the mornings. Am I wrong to make it for him?

[hordak]

It's a fact that alcohol is addictive. Many people have addictive tendencies and if you served someone their first drink, you could be the one introducing them to the thing that will ultimately be their undoing.

Yes, they could've gotten that first drink on their own, but I'm sure that's the logic that most go through. And do you want to be the force of good, and uplifting, or evil and spiritually corroding?

So the item in question may take away agency, you sale it it so you could somehow be responsible.

I see your logic. Hope there are no lds gun store owners,

[sarcasm]

I would like to take this opportunity to call one of our dearest members to repentance. I understand she worked for a convenient store, and i'm willing to bet that store sold smokes and dip. Some even sell pornography and Alcohol [/sarcasm]

[MarginOfError]

How is it any different than Marriott having coffee percolators in their rooms, or selling pornography on pay-per-view, or having a bar in the hotel?

[gabelpa]

In some circles, it is said that LDS make the best bartenders, they don't sample the wares. Personally I think if it can be avoided, avoid it. If it's the only job you can get, then that's life.

[sensibility]

So I guess I'm in the minority here . . .

I hate alcohol (as a beverage, not as a chemical compound). It does terrible things to people, and the world would be better without it. I wouldn't base my career around selling it any more than I'd base my career around, say, going around kicking people in the kneecap. I'd prefer to make a more positive contribution to the earth than increased liver disease, heart disease, cancer, alcoholism, accidental death and crime. So no, I've never considered bartender as one of my potential career paths.

It doesn't really have much to do with the Word of Wisdom; I don't think drinking alcohol is actually a sin unless you've made a covenant not to (as all Church members have). I wouldn't have a problem working at Whittard or another tea shop, for instance. Tea isn't likely to cause many problems beyond yellow teeth -- in fact, my husband and I keep tea in our house for when my in-laws visit. I probably wouldn't work at a coffee shop, but that's because I know how tasty some of those coffee drinks look to me. And I wouldn't have a problem working as a waitress who occasionally served wine or beer as long as I wasn't working somewhere that people actually drink to get drunk.

But I would never choose to dedicate a very significant portion of my mortal probation consciously promoting and encouraging something that will increase human suffering. I'd probably feel the same even if I weren't LDS. But speaking as someone who is, I can't imagine the Spirit would come to work with me, and I'm not sure I'd even be able to ask him to.

[FunkyTown]

It's a fact that alcohol is addictive. Many people have addictive tendencies and if you served someone their first drink, you could be the one introducing them to the thing that will ultimately be their undoing.

Yes, they could've gotten that first drink on their own, but I'm sure that's the logic that most go through. And do you want to be the force of good, and uplifting, or evil and spiritually corroding?

Okay. So let's take this to the next level:

1) It's a fact that gambling is addictive and destroys families. Many people have addictive tendencies and if you sold someone their first scratch ticket, you could be the one introducing them to the thing that will ultimately be their undoing. Therefore, no Mormon should work in a convenience store that sells lotto tickets.

2) It's a fact that MMORPGs are addictive. Many people have addictive tendencies and if you sold someone their first online subscription game, you could be the one introducing them to the thing that will ultimately be their undoing. Therefore, nobody should work for Mythic Entertainment programming MMOs.

3) It's a fact that opium based drugs are addictive and destroy families. Many people have addictive tendencies and if you sold someone their first prescription, you could be the one introducing them to the thing that will ultimately be their undoing. Therefore, no Mormon should become a pharmacist.

I believe that the closest argument one could make would be to avoid the appearance of evil. The argument that we can't involve ourselves in the destructive behaviours of people who make poor choices is, I think, a weak argument.

[Wingnut]

So you don't care about the alcohol victims? Just if the person making a buck off of other people's destructive addictions is good in the rest of their life? Hmm...

It's a fact that alcohol is addictive. Many people have addictive tendencies and if you served someone their first drink, you could be the one introducing them to the thing that will ultimately be their undoing.

Yes, they could've gotten that first drink on their own, but I'm sure that's the logic that most go through. And do you want to be the force of good, and uplifting, or evil and spiritually corroding?

Not everyone who drinks is addicted. Not everyone who drinks will become addicted. Not everyone is predisposed to alcoholism. Alcoholism is a disease, social drinking is not. Other people have their agency, and their choices cannot be blamed on my (or anyone else's) business activities.

1) It's a fact that gambling is addictive and destroys families. Many people have addictive tendencies and if you sold someone their first scratch ticket, you could be the one introducing them to the thing that will ultimately be their undoing. Therefore, no Mormon should work in a convenience store that sells lotto tickets.

Pam, shame on you!

3) It's a fact that opium based drugs are addictive and destroy families. Many people have addictive tendencies and if you sold someone their first prescription, you could be the one introducing them to the thing that will ultimately be their undoing. Therefore, no Mormon should become a pharmacist.

Or a doctor.

[Carl62]

What I don't understand is who is holding a gun to our heads saying that we have to work at these establishments? Would this then make it O.K. for me to work at a strip club being the D.J. who introduces the strippers? I think this says a lot about how lightly we take our covenants if now the thinking is "it's O.K. that I work at this place and support this (yes, which you are by working there), just so long as I'm not actually doing this".

[bytor2112]

So, what about owning shares of stock of Phillip Morris or Budweiser? There are any number of company's that produce morally objectionable products that many investors own and profit from....whether they know it or not.

Sidenote: You can purchase shares of socially responsible mutual funds that avoid many of the moral issues.

[pam]

Originally Posted by FunkyTown

1) It's a fact that gambling is addictive and destroys families. Many people have addictive tendencies and if you sold someone their first scratch ticket, you could be the one introducing them to the thing that will ultimately be their undoing. Therefore, no Mormon should work in a convenience store that sells lotto tickets.

Pam, shame on you!

Take it back Wingers. Lottery is illegal in the state of Utah therefore I NEVER sold lottery tickets.

Edited February 2, 2010 by pam