Do I have to have a feeling?

[wbrisett]

A very dear friend of mine who I've known for a long time is a member of the Church and I have studied the LDS church beliefs for some time myself. Part of my commitment this year is to make it all the way through the Book of Mormon (so far this year, I'm doing pretty well). Both my wife and I teach sunday school at our church and it's doubtful that we'll ever become members, but I'm always one for learning and studying scriptures.

We've had the missionaries over a few times and this past week when they stopped by, they asked me how I felt when I read the Book of Mormon. I mentioned that I didn't "feel" anything. That shocked them a bit and they asked if I felt more peaceful when I read it. I mentioned that I've been reading/studying very early in the morning before anybody else in the house was up, so it's always peaceful to me. It's one of the few times that I get to have "me" time with everything being quiet and peaceful.

This isn't the first time that somebody has asked me how I "felt" when reading scriptures (of any religion). But I've never understood that question. Anybody here want to chime in and explain why that's important?

Wayne

[Justice]

It's a promise given to people who read the Book of Mormon. The Lord promised that if you read the Book of Mormon with a genuine desire to know if it is true, and all that it implies, that the truth of it will be manifest to you by the power of the Holy Ghost (see Moroni 10: 3-5). The Holy Ghost works by power and feeling. The hinge here is that you read it with a real and genuine desire to know if it's true, not just read it because you enjoy reading more scripture.

The fact is, if you read the Book of Mormon and desire to know whether or not it's true, you have to make certain promises to the Lord as to what you will do with this new found truth once it's revealed to you. If your only purpose is to read it for amusement, then I doubt you will get any such feeling.

Have you ever really pondered on the significance of IF it really is true, and it really IS of God, and Joseph Smith really DID see The Father and the Son? If those things are true, and He gives you a witness of those things so that you know they are true, it has to change your life. If you are unwilling, as you read, to make any changes in your life based on whether or not it is true, you probably won't get those feelings.

[NeuroTypical]

A note - people experience the Holy Ghost in different ways. We tend to call it a 'feelilng', because we lack the words to really describe what it actually is. Here's my lame attempt to do so:

Alma 32:27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Ok - so there you go. The scriptures identified me, and gave me a path to follow, through which I could undeniably verify the truth. I had only to make one assumption - that my senses would not lie to me under controlled conditions. A tough assumption for a minor in philosophy to make. What if life is a dream? Ok - set it aside. If my life is a dream, then so be it. I'll work with what I've got. I'll work towards truth. I know there is a bunch of stuff that I don't know, and I have been given a series of hoops to jump through, and promised a rather important promise, should I jump through them correctly.

So I had Alma 32:27, and Moroni 10:4. The first promised a slowly evolving process from faith to knowledge, through the assumption that if it looks good, and acts good, and produces good fruit, then it is good. Not really enough to base a testimony on, in my opinion. But Moroni promised something else - "he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.". That sounded a little more like it. So, when I looked at the verse, it laid out my side of the bargain:

1- "And when ye shall receive these things" - Before it would work, I had to read the Book of Mormon. But more than read it, to "receive" it. I had to internalize it - deeply reading for meaning, more than just a cursory glance. Not a critical reading, looking for faults. I had to read it, with the notion that it very well might be exactly what it claimes to be - scripture. True. The word of God. A literal history of people who literally lived.

2- "I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true"

So, I had to pray. Not just pray, but pray in the name of Christ. That means, I had to be worthy of his name. The guy who owns The Simsons brand, will let any amount of stupid garbage bear the name - Bart Simpson toothpaste, cheap flimsy Homer travel mugs, stupid T-shirts make out of inferior materials, whatever. But Jesus is more choosy. If you are going to bear his name, you need to be following his teachings.

This is possible to do, without actually believing in him. After all, I follow some of Sun-Tzu's "art of war" notions, but I don't believe he is a god, and I also don't share his faith. The best advice for a happy marriage, the notion that I've used as a foundation for mine, came from a drunk Tongan I met in an alleyway one night. I follow that advice daily, yet I'm not a big fan of the guy who gave it to me.

So, to take upon myself the name of Christ, I had to do and be a couple of main things:

* Not sinning

* Loving my neighbor

* Desiring to know a God I could love

I did not have to be perfect, I figured it was a matter of heart. It wasn't how close to my destination I was, it mattered only that my compass was pointed in the right direction, and I was following it. Yes, there was some doubt about what the compass was pointing to - was it true north, or just wishful thinking. But that didn't matter - I was just trying to satisfy this part of the scripture - and be able to pray in the name of Christ.

So, I prayed. I prayed nightly, starting about halfway through the book. I prayed fervently. My prayers were short and simple: "Dear Heavenly Father, if thou exist, thou knowest my heart. Thou knowest I am sincere. I desire to know of the truthfulness of this work. Please show it to me. In the name of thy son, Jesus Christ, amen". Simple, plain, sincere, honest, and pretty much daily.

3- "and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ,"

Ok - 3 requirements - and I had to have all 3 of them. In years past, I had read the BoM and prayed in the name of Christ, and got nothing. I was missing real intent - I figured I wouldn't get an answer, and praying was a way of proving my guess true.

It's about where my heart is. It needs to be sincere, not with an ulterior motive, burdened by sin, or trying to get something else out of the experience. My intent had to be true. No faith, no promise.

I can't impress enough on everyone, the importance of these 3 items. They're related, but if you are missing one, don't be expecting anything. If you are having a hard time figuring out where you are on these 3, you're probably not there.

Throughout the process, I was comfortable with my part of the bargain. It was like showing up for a test being very, very well prepared - there's a confidence based on the fact that you know what you're doing. I wasn't lying to myself, or bending any rules, or figuring out the least I could do to satisfy the bare minimum - I was there, and there solidly.

I did not believe in God - but I didn't have to. I just had to want to. I was not setting aside doubts - they held the center stage.

4- "He will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

So, what can I say - it happened.

It happened at work, where I was a candy maker, with an arm covered with chocolate. (If you've ever been to a fancy hotel, or taken a fancy cruise, and there's a chocolate mint on your pillow - that's what I used to make by hand.)

The details? Here is where I need to be a bit vague, in order to avoid embarassing stuff about someone who is not me. I was working away quietly, thinking about reality, wondering if I'd ever know what it was, and thinking about an unresolved situation in my life. I was at a crossroads, only tangentially related to my quest to discover the truth about the Book of Mormon. As I thought about this crossroads, trying to discern what to make out of the facts before me, I thought something along the lines of "Well, this pattern indicates that things are moving in the right direction..."

And it happened.

Words can't really explain it - they can only approximate it.

It was unmistakable, not a warm fuzzy, not an emotional reaction.

I had my answer. It was "yes".

It was a strong, internal sensation. Not a feeling - I wasn't happy or sad. The best word is "confirmation". And what was it confirming? Many things. It was confirming that yes, I had just said something true - the pattern I was looking at was indeed moving in the right direction. It confirmed that there WAS a right direction. It confirmed that this notion of reality that I had looked at - this bizarre tale of prophets and plates and revelations and restorations, had the added benefit of being true.

LM

[dazed-and-confused]

when i was investigating, i did what was recommended, pray about it. the immediate and undenyable sense of joy that i FELT was my answer.

[jadams_4040]

A very dear friend of mine who I've known for a long time is a member of the Church and I have studied the LDS church beliefs for some time myself. Part of my commitment this year is to make it all the way through the Book of Mormon (so far this year, I'm doing pretty well). Both my wife and I teach sunday school at our church and it's doubtful that we'll ever become members, but I'm always one for learning and studying scriptures.

We've had the missionaries over a few times and this past week when they stopped by, they asked me how I felt when I read the Book of Mormon. I mentioned that I didn't "feel" anything. That shocked them a bit and they asked if I felt more peaceful when I read it. I mentioned that I've been reading/studying very early in the morning before anybody else in the house was up, so it's always peaceful to me. It's one of the few times that I get to have "me" time with everything being quiet and peaceful.

This isn't the first time that somebody has asked me how I "felt" when reading scriptures (of any religion). But I've never understood that question. Anybody here want to chime in and explain why that's important?

Wayne

I know you do feel something a little differant when those missionaries are in your home.:)

[Moksha]

Reading for enlightenment, learning, the joy of reading or even as a means to pass time are all okay. Feel validated in yourself.

:)

[ferretrunner]

Wayne,

I'm curious... have you ever prayed about the Bible? Or what you're reading? To know it's true. I wonder what would happen if you did.

For me, gaining a testimony had to be both a mental and a "feeling" experience. It took me several years to get baptized. I just didn't have a testimony to the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith. I attended Chapel. I enjoyed being with the people and I agreed with most of what I was learning. I was becoming a better person, even without the faith. A missionary asked me what I would do if I gained a testimony, would I be baptized. Without hestitation, I answered yes. If I knew it was true, then, yes.

Several months later, I was listening to a talk in Sacrament. The speaker quoted the verse about Peter walking on water toward Jesus. When he lost the faith, he started sinking. But, he also had enough faith to get out of the boat to start with. At that point, I prayed differently. I asked for help getting out of the boat and to know what I was doing was right. In other words, tell me if it's wrong. I promised to be baptized. I ended up with a very powerful, peaceful word "yes." I knew it was true.

It's funny. A friend and I were going up to a "Why I Believe" talk at the Temple. On the way back, I told her "I have to get baptized now." I swear, she almost crashed the car in shock! LOL.

Anyway, keep reading. And ask questions. No knowledge is ever wasted. But, maybe open the door a crack--- what if it is true?

[bytor2112]

Consider the words of this hymn:

The witness of the Holy Ghost,

As borne by those who know,

Has lifted me again to thee,

O Father of my soul.

I know that thou art in the heav’n.

I know the Savior reigns.

I know a prophet speaks to us

For our eternal gain.

My eyes are wet; my heart is full.

The Spirit speaks today.

O Lord, wilt thou my life renew

And in my bosom stay.

As testimony fills my heart,

It dulls the pain of days.

For one brief moment, heaven’s view

Appears before my gaze.

[bmy-]

It's a promise given to people who read the Book of Mormon. The Lord promised that if you read the Book of Mormon with a genuine desire to know if it is true, and all that it implies, that the truth of it will be manifest to you by the power of the Holy Ghost (see Moroni 10: 3-5). The Holy Ghost works by power and feeling. The hinge here is that you read it with a real and genuine desire to know if it's true, not just read it because you enjoy reading more scripture.

The fact is, if you read the Book of Mormon and desire to know whether or not it's true, you have to make certain promises to the Lord as to what you will do with this new found truth once it's revealed to you. If your only purpose is to read it for amusement, then I doubt you will get any such feeling.

Have you ever really pondered on the significance of IF it really is true, and it really IS of God, and Joseph Smith really DID see The Father and the Son? If those things are true, and He gives you a witness of those things so that you know they are true, it has to change your life. If you are unwilling, as you read, to make any changes in your life based on whether or not it is true, you probably won't get those feelings.

There's a catch... it doesn't say when. So when nothing happens.. people can simply say "well you obviously didn't wait long enough". I felt absolutely nothing, I left it to chance. Unfortunately.. that leads to doubt down the road sometimes.

Healthy doubt though.

Edited February 5, 2010 by bmy-

[Jamie123]

A very dear friend of mine who I've known for a long time is a member of the Church and I have studied the LDS church beliefs for some time myself. Part of my commitment this year is to make it all the way through the Book of Mormon (so far this year, I'm doing pretty well). Both my wife and I teach sunday school at our church and it's doubtful that we'll ever become members, but I'm always one for learning and studying scriptures.

We've had the missionaries over a few times and this past week when they stopped by, they asked me how I felt when I read the Book of Mormon. I mentioned that I didn't "feel" anything. That shocked them a bit and they asked if I felt more peaceful when I read it. I mentioned that I've been reading/studying very early in the morning before anybody else in the house was up, so it's always peaceful to me. It's one of the few times that I get to have "me" time with everything being quiet and peaceful.

This isn't the first time that somebody has asked me how I "felt" when reading scriptures (of any religion). But I've never understood that question. Anybody here want to chime in and explain why that's important?

Wayne

Why not use the "Famous Bayes-Moroni Prayer Analysis Calculator"? (I shan't provoke the mods by posting a link, but Google will find it for you.)

Seriously though I've never really understood this "burning in the bosom" thing, but there is a particular feeling I've had twice in my life: The first time was when I was 20 and starting to get involved with the University Christian Union. The evening I had it (it was in January 1985) I counted as my "conversion" - though I later came to see it as just one in a long series of steps. The second time was a few years later when I was investigating Mormonism - though I never really identified it as pointing "towards" the LDS church in particular. I never joined the church, though I've always been interested in it.

Two comments about this feeling: First it's impossible to describe it properly in words, and secondly it's difficult to talk about it without making it sound ridiculous. I think this may be what Peter Gabriel was describing in his song Solsbury Hill:

To keep in silence I resigned

My friends would think I was a nut

In the last verse he attempts to put words to his feelings:

When illusion spin her net

I'm never where I want to be

And liberty she pirouette

When I think that I am free

Watched by empty silhouettes

Who close their eyes but still can see

No one taught them etiquette

I will show another me

which sounds like gobbldigook. It's like trying to bring apples from heaven to hell, or the Star of Astoroth from Naboombu. People don't describe these things because no words can ever really do them justice.

(OKOK...I suppose it's possible Gabriel was just describing a hallucinogenic experience after taking drugs, in which case I'm talking nonsense.)

Edited February 5, 2010 by Jamie123

[wbrisett]

Wayne,

I'm curious... have you ever prayed about the Bible? Or what you're reading? To know it's true. I wonder what would happen if you did.

In short no. I've never prayed specifically to know if the Bible was true. I've prayed for understanding about things in the Bible, but never about the truth of it. Probably because I was raised in the Catholic church and was an alter boy for many years. I never questioned it, because I've always trusted it's truth. Maybe I'm experiencing it, and not knowing it. For example, this morning I got up at 3 AM (my normal rising time) and spent nearly two hours reading both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. I felt no different when I read either. Prior to reading, I asked for wisdom and understanding in prayer. Did I feel a burning sensation when I read? No. Did I feel at peace, yes. But then the rest of my family is still sleeping, the house is quiet and there are no distractions. It's my time to study His words and try to gain in my relationship with God. Now, maybe that peacefulness is what the Elders had really asked, but to me it wasn't different reading the BoM or the Bible. Thus, my answer to the Elder's question.

And for the record, I do think the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired. I wouldn't read and study it, if I didn't think so. One of the interesting questions, and in fact mentioned in the introduction of the Book of Mormon (which is specifically mentioned from Moroni 10) is that you ask if the book is true, however nowhere is that question ever poised (at least that I can recall ever reading) in the Bible. So why is that question asked of one book, but not the other? I don't claim to know, but I do know both guide people's lives (including mine) daily and our world is a richer place because of it.

Wayne

Wayne

[Jamie123]

One of the interesting questions, and in fact mentioned in the introduction of the Book of Mormon (which is specifically mentioned from Moroni 10) is that you ask if the book is true, however nowhere is that question ever poised (at least that I can recall ever reading) in the Bible. So why is that question asked of one book, but not the other?

That's an interesting question. Perhaps it's because of the different histories of the two books. Unlike the BOM, the Bible has never been out of circulation since the last parts of it were written. Moroni knew that his book was going to remain hidden for centuries and rediscovered in a very different age, when there would naturally be a lot of scepticism about its authenticity.

[ferretrunner]

In short no. I've never prayed specifically to know if the Bible was true. I've prayed for understanding about things in the Bible, but never about the truth of it. Probably because I was raised in the Catholic church and was an alter boy for many years. I never questioned it, because I've always trusted it's truth. Maybe I'm experiencing it, and not knowing it. For example, this morning I got up at 3 AM (my normal rising time) and spent nearly two hours reading both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. I felt no different when I read either. Prior to reading, I asked for wisdom and understanding in prayer. Did I feel a burning sensation when I read? No. Did I feel at peace, yes. But then the rest of my family is still sleeping, the house is quiet and there are no distractions. It's my time to study His words and try to gain in my relationship with God. Now, maybe that peacefulness is what the Elders had really asked, but to me it wasn't different reading the BoM or the Bible. Thus, my answer to the Elder's question.

And for the record, I do think the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired. I wouldn't read and study it, if I didn't think so. One of the interesting questions, and in fact mentioned in the introduction of the Book of Mormon (which is specifically mentioned from Moroni 10) is that you ask if the book is true, however nowhere is that question ever poised (at least that I can recall ever reading) in the Bible. So why is that question asked of one book, but not the other? I don't claim to know, but I do know both guide people's lives (including mine) daily and our world is a richer place because of it.

Wayne

Wayne

Wayne,

I can't imagine getting up at 3AM to read scripture. That's awesome. Thanks for the inspiration, since sometimes my scripture study is shortcircuited by "no time." I'll have time if I'm willing to get up a bit eariler. Probably not 3am, though. :)

I don't know why we're not asked to pray about the Bible. It would seem to make sense, in a way. Perhaps it's because the Bible is more familiar to people?

The Holy Spirit speaks to people in different ways. Perhaps you're more analytical and not as aware of emotional experiences. I don't mean that as an insult. Emotions may not be how the Spirit communicates if it's not you're communication "style."

I find it interesting that you know the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired. Maybe for you, it will be a more "quiet" knowledge instead.

I hope you keep posting in here. I enjoy reading your comments. :)

Have a great day!

[wbrisett]

I find it interesting that you know the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired. Maybe for you, it will be a more "quiet" knowledge instead.

You do have to understand that I've studied or had a lot of influence from the LDS church in my life for quite some time. I was very close at one time to joining the church, but my wife was very much against it, and so I just continued to read and study. In the meantime, I've been able to add small things into our life that were borrowed from the LDS church, such as family night. We make Friday's our family night where we spend the time focusing on us as a family (hard to do when everybody seems to be pulling for your time). My wife and I were called to teach Sunday school and I find myself enjoying studying for the lesson plans each week. However, I don't enjoy having to share that with 12 year olds who would rather not be there, but that's another story.

Oh, I'm really not all that analytical, at least not all the time. I can be emotional... just ask anybody who has read any of the poetry that I've written over the years.

[Blackmarch]

A very dear friend of mine who I've known for a long time is a member of the Church and I have studied the LDS church beliefs for some time myself. Part of my commitment this year is to make it all the way through the Book of Mormon (so far this year, I'm doing pretty well). Both my wife and I teach sunday school at our church and it's doubtful that we'll ever become members, but I'm always one for learning and studying scriptures.

We've had the missionaries over a few times and this past week when they stopped by, they asked me how I felt when I read the Book of Mormon. I mentioned that I didn't "feel" anything. That shocked them a bit and they asked if I felt more peaceful when I read it. I mentioned that I've been reading/studying very early in the morning before anybody else in the house was up, so it's always peaceful to me. It's one of the few times that I get to have "me" time with everything being quiet and peaceful.

This isn't the first time that somebody has asked me how I "felt" when reading scriptures (of any religion). But I've never understood that question. Anybody here want to chime in and explain why that's important?

Wayne

I think many of us recieve revelation that comes by unique feelings, however the Spirit is not restricted to to that medium, I know of people that have recieved visions, or actually heard a voice, or had a sudden thought pop up. I also know people who didn't notice anything- which generally caused them to study harder, or pray more, or repent more before they recieved an answer.

I also know people that had to be lead through several diffferent religions and sects before they really got an answer.

[billy2]

The Bible says that to determine truth you must examine the scriptures. First we see 2 Timothy 3:16-17 say that "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness."

Then when we look at Acts 17:11 which says, "Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so." If the Bereans compared what Paul the apostle said to inspired scripture, should we do any less with The Book of Mormon? Of course not. You don't pray about truth you look into the Bible for it.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jer. 17:9

The Book of Mormon Verses Mormon Doctrine

The Book of Mormon does not contain Mormonism. It is more Christian than it is Mormon. Mormon theology is about many gods, god being a man, men and women potentially becoming gods, but the Book of Mormon is basically Christian in its teachings.

The following information is in the Book of Mormon. Compare it to Mormon doctrine and see the differences. It is obvious that Mormonism grew and was pasted together as it developed. It is not internally consistent and it is self-contradictory.

BOOK OF MORMON

There is only one God*

The Trinity is one God

God is unchanging

God is spirit

Eternal hell

Polygamy condemned

MORMON DOCTRINE

Mormonism teaches there are many gods.*

The Trinity is three separate gods.

God is increasing in knowledge.*

God has the form of a man.*

Hell is not eternal.

Polygamy was taught and practiced.

[bytor2112]

Wow Billy....what ridiculously simple and total inept anti web site did you get that information from? Seriously, at least take the time to research and offer up something that is at least based in fact.

[Moksha]

Bytor, forgive me if I am wrong on this point, but hasn't doctrine developed since the Church was restored?

[bytor2112]

Bytor, forgive me if I am wrong on this point, but hasn't doctrine developed since the Church was restored?

Maybe some examples of what you are referring to might be helpful, Moksha. But statements like...."It is obvious that Mormonism grew and was pasted together as it developed. It is not internally consistent and it is self-contradictory." is a blatant attack on the church....IMO.

[billy2]

Wow Billy....what ridiculously simple and total inept anti web site did you get that information from? Seriously, at least take the time to research and offer up something that is at least based in fact.

Research? As in, you are looking for exact references? Okay... Is this better?

The Book of Mormon

There is only one God

Mosiah 15:1,5; Alma 11:28; 2 Nephi 31:21.

The Trinity is one God

Alma 11:44; Mosiah 15:5; 2 Nephi 31:21.

God is unchanging

Mormon 9:9,19; Moroni 8:18; Alma 41:8; 3 Nephi 24:6.

God is spirit

Alma 18:24,28; 22:9,11.

Eternal hell

Jacob 3:11; 6:10; 2 Nephi 19:16; 28:21-23.

Polygamy condemned

Jacob 1:15; 2:23,24,27,31;3:5; Mosiah 11:2,4; Ether 10:5,7.

Mormon Doctrine

Mormonism teaches there are many gods.

Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 5.

The Trinity is three separate gods.

James Talmage, Articles of Faith, 1985, p. 35.

God is increasing in knowledge.

Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 120.

God has the form of a man.

Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3.

Hell is not eternal.

James Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 55.

Polygamy was taught and practiced.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266.

[bytor2112]

Your lack of understanding of the doctrine of the church is apparent in your posts. Do you honestly think your post would be received as revelatory by anyone here? Seriously? Maybe you should acquaint yourself with the rules before you post. What is it that you hope to accomplish here? Shake someones faith by presenting a skewed view of our faith?

[billy2]

Your lack of understanding of the doctrine of the church is apparent in your posts. Do you honestly think your post would be received as revelatory by anyone here? Seriously? Maybe you should acquaint yourself with the rules before you post. What is it that you hope to accomplish here? Shake someones faith by presenting a skewed view of our faith?

I'm sorry, I was still waiting for a follow up to your denying that my claim of doctrine "not being internally consistent and self-contradictory." Something was said about my lack of research, so exact scriptures and doctrines were referenced.

Can you please explain the inconsistencies mentioned, then perhaps we can move on.

[Justice]

Answer me 1 question honestly, billy. It's in 2 parts:

Did you read all those books you referenced and discover those for yourself?

Or, did you stumble across them on a web site and are just taking their word for it?

[Guest]

I'm sorry, I was still waiting for a follow up to your denying that my claim of doctrine "not being internally consistent and self-contradictory." Something was said about my lack of research, so exact scriptures and doctrines were referenced.

Can you please explain the inconsistencies mentioned, then perhaps we can move on.

It's been explained ad nauseum in this forum... maybe a trip to the Search link above is in order. This thread is not the place for it, I don't think.

As far as the manifestations of the spirit... Man, I have a really good one.

First experience, I was fine with the Book of Mormon, I read it and felt no different than reading the Bible. Maybe that's because they're both true? Otherwise, I would have not wanted to read BOM because it would really FEEL aweful - having been brought up Catholic where we are taught not to read "other stuff". But where I'm stuck is - if the Book of Mormon is true, then the Catholic faith cannot be true - an apostasy must have happened. Hah, I can't get past that one. Because, there was no question in my mind that there was not an apostasy, that the Catholics retained authority.

So then a friend of mine loaned me a book called The Great Apostasy. I read the first page and that was it. I couldn't go on. Not that it felt aweful, my brain just shut down on the first paragraph. It truly was greek to me - I couldn't understand the simple opening sentences. So, I put it down. I tried again another time ... for months... couldn't do it. One day, I decided to really get to the bottom of it. I fasted and prayed (yeah, Catholics do those too), then sat on a packed beach with noise and kids all over. Believe it or not, I read that book from cover to cover on that beach. Good thing I'm Filipino - I don't easily burn. After I read it - there was this quick flashback of images in my mind - of all my past experiences, all that I know of Philippine History that I love to study so much, all of my Catholic teachings, they seem to parade across my mind one after the other so fast - randomly... and all of those things that I already know validated what I read in that book. Validated the truth of it. I didn't get any burning feeling or any voice from the heavens or anything like that. It was just this instamatic click in my brain that was an A-ha moment - it all of a sudden made so much sense!

It took me a little bit more time before I asked to be baptized - and that was something crazy too. That was a burning sensation on my chest - the only time I really felt like it. I was talking to a missionary at the LDS church (I would attend ward sacrament with my husband and my husband would attend Catholic mass with me) and all of a sudden, I just blurted out - this church is true, I want to be baptized. I had no intention before that to get baptized. None at all. I started fledging, of course, after I read the Great Apostasy, dreading the feeling that the Apostasy happened and that the Catholic church cannot possibly have the authority anymore. But, I did not have a testimony of the LDS church either. So, I was in limbo. And that burning sensation in my chest - that was instamatic. Like a flash of lightning and I was breathless. Really wierd feeling. I haven't felt that way again after that, though.

I have learned to watch for spiritual moments. There are times when I'm in the middle of a family party and I sit there amongst my family and all of a sudden everything fades in the background and my family stands out in my vision clear and crisp and my brain tells me in that split second, this is exactly where I should be and what I should be doing in this particular point in time and I am completely at peace. That's another one of those times that I have associated with the spirit.

So, yeah, I guess it is different for everybody. Even different manifestations within one person's realm of experience.

It really doesn't matter that you don't have that particular "feeling". I think your enjoyment of the readings are "feeling" enough.

Edited February 9, 2010 by anatess

[Dravin]

Psalms 49:3

Psalms 119

Proverbs 2:2

Proverbs 3:5

I like how some people like to portray it as if the heart is uniformly portrayed as some vile evil thing in the scriptures. It isn't so. You find it put in both contexts.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Dravin