Any proof?

[Vanhin]

Just some "signs" that he was there!

Many native American cultures maintain oral traditions that a God, who was once with them, would return. Some scholars believe the Hernán Cortés was able to overthrow the Aztec empire, in part because of their belief that he was the returning "White Tezcatlipoca", or Quetzalcoatl.

I think the Hopis of Arizona had an interesting tradition. They believed that the "Lost White Brother", who they call Pahana, would return some day from the east, which will mark the beginning of a new era of peace and prosperity (Locke 2001:139–140, Waters 2004). Many Christians, including Latter-day Saints, immediately see parallels in that with the second coming of Jesus Christ. Not only do we believe that when Christ comes again that he will come from the East (Matt. 24:27), but we also believe that his coming will user in the Millennium; which can certainly be considered an era of peace and prosperity (see Guide to the Scriptures: Millennium).

Edit: So, I think one plausible explanation for similar traditions among Native Americans is just what the Book of Mormon teaches. That Jesus Christ appeared to the ancient inhabitants of the Americas after his resurrection, and promised to return. It's at least some kind of evidence...

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited February 9, 2010 by Vanhin

[markwinfield1]

Just wondering, but do you have a period fetish? Because it's dang annoying to read partial sentences that, taken individually make no sense at all, and when strung together make very little sense.

okay.

[john doe]

The Bible does not call Jesus the only son of Mary; it calls Him the firstbornson.

And you consider this to be news?

[markwinfield1]

maybe not to you.

[rameumptom]

Check out this evidence on my website:

Incan - Life, the Universe, and Etcetera

[mnn727]

Is their evidence or not?Not asking for proof.

Evidence enough to convince me

Moroni 10: 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things...and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will fmanifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

[markwinfield1]

Check out this evidence on my website:

Incan - Life, the Universe, and Etcetera

So Joseph Smith got those "Myth Legends".From his forefathers?And applied it to.The Book Of Mormon?

Edited February 9, 2010 by markwinfield1

[mnn727]

Just some "signs" that he was there!

What kinds of signs would you accept? Do you believe Christ was in the middle east during Biblical times?

[markwinfield1]

What kinds of signs would you accept? Do you believe Christ was in the middle east during Biblical times?

yes.But that doesn't mean.He was exclusive.To 1 place or another.

[mnn727]

OK, so I am trying to find out what signs you would accept that Christ came to the America's so the easiest way to find out would be to ask you what signs you accept that says Christ was in the Middle east when the Bible says He was?

[markwinfield1]

Because i believe that historically jesus existed.just my opinion!Anyways,i'll be back tommorrow.Your supposed to go by faith right?

[mnn727]

Because i believe that historically jesus existed.just my opinion!?

SO, just believing it makes it true? Well I believe he was in the Americas, so it must be true

All kidding aside: all religion/belief is by Faith, there is no proof Christ existed at all outside of religous texts, even though both the Jews and the Romans were historically very good at record keeping.

Even Josephus, whom many people will say proves Christ existed was accoriding to historians only 2 or 3 years old at the time of Christ's crucifiction, so his witness is even a 2nd hand witness.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[JohnOF123]

I came across this and felt I had to chime in...

all religion/belief is by Faith, there is no proof Christ existed at all outside of religous texts.

Even Josephus, whom many people will say proves Christ existed was accoriding to historians only 2 or 3 years old at the time of Christ's crucifiction, so his witness is even a 2nd hand witness.

There’s really no legitimate scholar these days that deny Jesus is a historic figure that walked on this earth about 2000 years ago. There are over 42 sources within about 150 years after Jesus’ death which mention his existence and record many events of his life. Jesus gave us evidence by displaying numerous miracles to hundreds of eye witnesses.

Let me attempt to answer or give my two cents to the original thread here.

Now as far as the resurrection goes, keep this in mind. (Now think about this...) Take a Muslim; he can die for his religion and NOT know it's a lie until it's too late.

Now take the 12 apostles; they saw Jesus die. If you saw your leader who claimed to be Lord die, you would probably hide as they did. But would you die for this cause after you saw the leader who claimed divinity die and then never rise from the dead??? probably not because you would KNOW first hand it was a lie since He claimed He would rise in 3 days... But these apostles DID die for the cause, pretty much every one of them. I think this is logical evidence that they saw Jesus after He rose from the dead. Somehow they knew it wasn't a lie. A man will NOT die for what they believe is a lie. The apostles were totally convinced Jesus wasn't lying once He rose from the dead.

I probably could have restated that better, but hopefully you get the concept.

Proof, no.. Evidence that supports the Christ coming to America theory?

Absolutely.

things such as the white god who promised to return myth in ancient central american legends.

Are you referring to Quetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent deity?

[RipplecutBuddha]

Is there proof that Jesus came to the Americas?

It's a fair question...until we begin analyzing what one would consider proof. You accept as proof enough in the bible that Jesus was real, yet there are any number of atheists and agnostics that would refuse your proof as insufficient. What we as LDS regard as sufficient proof, others outside the religion disregard as 'brain-washing'.

One man's faith is another man's foolishness.

When we honestly analyze any religion, we realize that each one requires faith to accept. In other words, not one religion on earth fits the demands of proof that you seem to be seeking. You don't accept Muhammed's existence as real, but millions of muslims do...who's right, and who has the proof? There's no real answer for that, which is why the debate about religion in general goes on.

So, back to the issue...proof that Jesus came to the Americas....

Let's take this in order. The BoM states that Jesus came to the Americas. Joseph Smith translated the BoM from golden plates. Eleven men of good standing signed their names to statements that the plates did exist, and that they had seen them.

Aside from them, Joseph's wife Emma wrote what the plates felt like when she handled them. Joseph also had at least five scribes during the translation, and there is no record of him making an effort to hide the plates during the process, so we can state with confidence that they saw them as well. Do we have proof that they really saw them? Not aside from their written statements, as well as a lack of any of them later recanting.

Then there's the BoM itself. A thorough study of what the Book of Mormon contains will reveal a wealth of information, knowledge, and writing skill that nobody posessed at the time of translation, much less an uneducated farm boy in a poor family in upstate New York in the middle of the 18th century. The best scholars in the nation could not have written the book because so many facts in the BoM we know today were simply not kown by anyone then.

Then there's the size of the book. Over four hundred pages of dictation produced in less than 90 working days...and only one manuscript. I have a friend that wrote his own book, nearly three hundred pages long, all his own research...and he went through four drafts over a period of three years.

Then there's the doctrines of the BoM. They mesh flawlessly with the docrines of the Bible in ways that many theologians are still discovering today.

Does any of this constitute proof? In my mind, not at all. All the proof I needed was when I prayed about it alone, in the middle of nowhere in Wyoming, and got an immediate answer to my prayers that the BoM is absolutely true, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

However, such information does have value because it presents some interesting questions to the naysayers. If the BoM is false...then how did Joseph Smith come up with it so fast? How did he know what is in the BoM? How did he know to add an ancient style of poetry that nobody knew existed until the 1960's?

The LDS Church has maintained from the beginning that Jesus came to the Americas, and that the record of those visits can be found in the BoM. Nobody has been able to prove that claim wrong after nearly 200 years of attempts. Is that proof? Not any more than any other information I've given.

In the end it's all a matter of faith. In any search for truth, you must exercise faith that the truth can be found, and be willing to do whatever is necessary to obtain it. Anything less will result in failure to reach the goal of finding truth.

Don't rationalize your way out of faith. You have faith in Jesus, so start there. You can only gain from there.

[Blackmarch]

...

Are you referring to Quetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent deity?

among others, quite possibly... it depends on which culture you study, but there are very similar aspects between them. There also quite few very christian-like practices that were only found in certain parts in central america and no where else.

[Hemidakota]

Because i believe that historically jesus existed.just my opinion!Anyways,i'll be back tommorrow.Your supposed to go by faith right?

Even the Roman historian met the person called Jesus and gave a description of Him. As they say, "Proof is in the pudding."

[Hemidakota]

Is there proof that Jesus came to the Americas?

It's a fair question...until we begin analyzing what one would consider proof. You accept as proof enough in the bible that Jesus was real, yet there are any number of atheists and agnostics that would refuse your proof as insufficient. What we as LDS regard as sufficient proof, others outside the religion disregard as 'brain-washing'.

One man's faith is another man's foolishness.

When we honestly analyze any religion, we realize that each one requires faith to accept. In other words, not one religion on earth fits the demands of proof that you seem to be seeking. You don't accept Muhammed's existence as real, but millions of muslims do...who's right, and who has the proof? There's no real answer for that, which is why the debate about religion in general goes on.

So, back to the issue...proof that Jesus came to the Americas....

Let's take this in order. The BoM states that Jesus came to the Americas. Joseph Smith translated the BoM from golden plates. Eleven men of good standing signed their names to statements that the plates did exist, and that they had seen them.

Aside from them, Joseph's wife Emma wrote what the plates felt like when she handled them. Joseph also had at least five scribes during the translation, and there is no record of him making an effort to hide the plates during the process, so we can state with confidence that they saw them as well. Do we have proof that they really saw them? Not aside from their written statements, as well as a lack of any of them later recanting.

Then there's the BoM itself. A thorough study of what the Book of Mormon contains will reveal a wealth of information, knowledge, and writing skill that nobody posessed at the time of translation, much less an uneducated farm boy in a poor family in upstate New York in the middle of the 18th century. The best scholars in the nation could not have written the book because so many facts in the BoM we know today were simply not kown by anyone then.

Then there's the size of the book. Over four hundred pages of dictation produced in less than 90 working days...and only one manuscript. I have a friend that wrote his own book, nearly three hundred pages long, all his own research...and he went through four drafts over a period of three years.

Then there's the doctrines of the BoM. They mesh flawlessly with the docrines of the Bible in ways that many theologians are still discovering today.

Does any of this constitute proof? In my mind, not at all. All the proof I needed was when I prayed about it alone, in the middle of nowhere in Wyoming, and got an immediate answer to my prayers that the BoM is absolutely true, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

However, such information does have value because it presents some interesting questions to the naysayers. If the BoM is false...then how did Joseph Smith come up with it so fast? How did he know what is in the BoM? How did he know to add an ancient style of poetry that nobody knew existed until the 1960's?

The LDS Church has maintained from the beginning that Jesus came to the Americas, and that the record of those visits can be found in the BoM. Nobody has been able to prove that claim wrong after nearly 200 years of attempts. Is that proof? Not any more than any other information I've given.

In the end it's all a matter of faith. In any search for truth, you must exercise faith that the truth can be found, and be willing to do whatever is necessary to obtain it. Anything less will result in failure to reach the goal of finding truth.

Don't rationalize your way out of faith. You have faith in Jesus, so start there. You can only gain from there.

Excellent post....

[Hemidakota]

That Christ showed up in South America.Outside of Mormonism?

There is no accounting of such for South America...but mesoamerica and England so far. I am sure there are many other location He may of revealed Himself after death.

[Traveler]

I thought I would add some evidence of Jesus in America that is not referenced. We learn from Biblical scripture that Jesus is “the Living Water” of life. There is some debate about what this means but it is interesting that one of the doctrines in the Americas concerned what the Spanish call “The Fountain of Youth”. This source of “magical” water was so prevalent in the Americas that several different explorers went looking for the water source.

We know from the Book of Mormon that there were 3 individuals that had partaken of the “living water” from the very source of the “fountain of youth”. They are known in LDS circles as the “3 Nephits”. The Book of Mormon tells us that many individuals had seen and talked with these 3 and gave witness that they did not age and would not die. I submit that the legend of the fountain of youth has, as many legends do a basis in reality and that the fountain of youth is the Christ who is the source of living water.

One more of many pieces of evidence that Christ was in the Americas

The Traveler

[wbrisett]

Mark: You may want to read this:

Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon - Michael J. Preece - FARMS Review - Volume 3 - Issue 1

As a non-member of the Church, I have few answers. But I think the opening statement of this review of the book "Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon" pretty well sums up what others have stated here.

"It seems basic to acknowledge at the outset of this review that any book which proposes to show where the events in the Book of Mormon story took place is on shaky ground by the very nature of its subject. "

That said, if there is evidence of any type it's in the hearts, minds, and actions of those. Jesus warned of false prophets that would come, I know many in the mainstream Christian religions look towards the LDS church this way. However, It's also said that you will know from people's actions where they stand. On that record, I think anyone would find it hard to say members of the Church don't just talk the talk, they actually walk the walk as well. Their actions speak volumes of where their hearts are... I have challenged myself to read the Book of Mormon this year. I'm way ahead of schedule, and it's making me make that reconnection with our Holy Father, and ultimately isn't that what it's about. I seriously doubt that if the Book of Mormon, and the telling of Jesus here in the Americas wasn't true I would make that connection.

I don't think you'll find hard evidence, but if you are earnest in asking I'm sure the Holy Spirit will reveal to you an understanding on the subject.

Wayne

[rameumptom]

So Joseph Smith got those "Myth Legends".From his forefathers?And applied it to.The Book Of Mormon?

Those Incan myths were not readily available in English in Joseph Smith's day, especially not on the frontier.

Few Americans today have easy access to them (except perhaps on the Internet).

The concept that there were several days of darkness, followed by a bearded, white God coming among the Inca to teach them things, then leaving with the promise of returning; is compelling information that one does not find in the Bible, but only in the Book of Mormon.

[gabelpa]

I work in an environment where we are programming according to the laws of physics and Engineering standards. There is a lot of math and a lot of logic around me. As such, we are subject to interpretations of specification and mathematical proofs. There are varying standards for what we are willing to accept as fact. I haven't been through all 7 pages yet, but here is my question for markwinfield1.

What standard of proof do you require for your question?

Edited February 10, 2010 by gabelpa
forgot a line

[justaname]

Its sad to see this "Mark" stringing you all along. With all of the collective knowledge you folks have about the Book of Mormon and other gospel principles, you should know better than to even attempt to prove or provide temporal evidence of the truthfulness of our gospel.

What makes you guys think that you can provide Mark the answers he is "looking" for? It should be obvious to you that Mark will just keep asking asinine questions. Even if you could prove that Christ came to the Americas, it would do absolutely nothing to help him gain a testimony. He would simply move on to some other question that can only be answered through spiritual query.

[markwinfield1]

I guess your the judge.Over me now???

[rameumptom]

Most scholars agree that there was a historical Jesus. That said, all scholars agree that there is no extra-Biblical evidence of his miracles or resurrection. All writings regarding his miracles and resurrection come long after his death, after oral traditions and stories were involved. Not all early Christians believed Jesus resurrected, for instance, which is why the apostle John warned of "anti-Christs" who taught there was no resurrection.

So, who do we believe? The Bible was put together by a bunch of Christians centuries after Jesus' death. IOW, the Bible becomes a book of faith, not of evidence, as we can trace back through history through much of the Bible. There is no evidence of the miraculous side of the Bible outside of the Bible.

As for the Book of Mormon, its claims, if shown true, would all be evidence of the miracles and resurrection of Christ. Why? Because there is no actual provenance that can physically trace it all the way back thousands of years, like we can the Bible.

So, if I find locations from the BoM that are not in the Bible or known in Joseph Smith's day, they become evidence of the Book of Mormon, and of Christ's resurrection and visit to America.

Do we find such locations? Yes. Nahom, the Arabian Bountiful, and the Valley of Lemuel have been found. In Mesoamerica, we've found sites with names like "Lamonai."

Names in the Book of Mormon, which were unknown for centuries, now appear to show these names were correct (such as Sariah, Alma, Paanchi, etc). While one or two names could be considered coincidence, 40 correct names goes outside of the statistical probability for coincidence. That is strong evidence. Leading archaeologist William F. Albright was impressed to find Egyptian names in the BoM, given the BoM was translated in the same year Champollion was translating Egyptian.

Other identifiers in the Book of Mormon, when found to be true, are evidence. Cities of cement. Large cities in the Americas, unknown when the BoM was translated, but found later in mesoamerica, are evidence. That Methodist preacher and OT scholar, Margaret Barker found strong evidence that Lehi's Jerusalem was, in fact, just like the Jerusalem of 600 BC, is evidence.

While no single piece of evidence proves anything, as one is able to stack up evidence into an ever growing pile, the strength of that overall evidence grows stronger and stronger.

The best evidence for Christ being the Savior of mankind does not lie in the Bible, but in the Book of Mormon. If it can be found to be probable, then so also can the resurrection of Christ be probable.

Edited February 10, 2010 by rameumptom