What Say Ye of Salvation By Grace.

[CommanderSouth]

I was listening to Elder Mcconkie's talk on salvation by grace, and I have to say. I came from a pentecostal household, and have been to many different churches and listen to a littany of televangelists, and I know not ONE who preaches you can be saved and live in sin. While I wouldn't say that means there are none, I just don't think it is that prevalent. I am not saying there aren't those who take God's grace lightly, I am simply saying that isn't the majority view from what I have seen.

Just kinda wanted to vent on that, thanks for listening...

[Wingnut]

Being that none is perfect, we are all living in sin, are we not?

[CommanderSouth]

Being that none is perfect, we are all living in sin, are we not?

Correct, it seemed to me though the implication was something like a cross between salvation by grace and eternal security.

Saved by confession, can't loose it no matter what you do. That simply isn't a message I have ever heard preached from any pulpit, even those who teach salvation by grace.

[bytor2112]

Obviously the first steps toward Eternal Salvation are faith in Jesus Christ and repentance, followed by baptism by the proper Priesthood Authority and receipt of the Holy Ghost. I am fairly certain that is why Elder McConkie takes issue with what he describes in the talk. Those first steps provide a cleansing and a renewing and by worthily partaking of the Sacrament we can have that same renewal and cleansing made available to us at our baptism.

I am a former Southern Baptist and they do teach "once saved, always saved" and while there are a great many devout Southern Baptists that live very righteous lives, there are a great many also that profess Christ, but live in a very un-Christ like manner and feel quite assured of their place in heaven.

This second heresy--and it is the delusion and mania that prevails to this day in the great evangelical body of Protestantism--is the doctrine that we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law. It is the doctrine that we are saved by grace alone, without works. It is the doctrine that we may be born again simply by confessing the Lord Jesus with our lips while we continue to live in our sins.

We have all listened to sermons by the great revivalists and self-appointed prophets of the various radio and television ministries. Whatever the subjects of their sermons may be, they always end with an invitation and a plea for people to come forward and confess the Lord Jesus and receive the cleansing power of his blood.

Television broadcasts of these sermons always show arenas or coliseums or stadiums filled with people, scores and hundreds and thousands of whom go forward to make their confessions, to become born-again Christians, to be saved with all they suppose this includes.

While driving along a highway in my car, I was listening to the radio sermon of one of these evangelists who was preaching of salvation by grace alone. He said all anyone had to do to be saved was to believe in Christ and perform an affirmative act of confession.

Among other things he said: “If you are traveling in a car, simply reach forth your hand and touch your car radio, thus making contact with me, and then say, 'Lord Jesus, I believe,' and you will be saved.”

Unfortunately, I did not accept his generous invitation to gain instant salvation; and so I suppose my opportunity is lost forever!-Elder Bruce McConkie

Edited March 18, 2010 by bytor2112

[CommanderSouth]

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the baptists teach if someone "backslides" they weren't saved to begin with?

Also, even though the baptists believe in eternal security, do they preach you can sin and still make it to heaven? I would assume they preach against sin just like anyone else.

[prisonchaplain]

I have to agree that those who find cover for their sins in the doctrine of grace are simply carnal (fleshly...sinful) and self-deluded. There was a time when Christians of that persuasion would work especially hard to live holy, so they might evidence that they were indeed "of the Elect." To live sinfully, and spiritually cavalierly would have suggested that they might not be Chosen.

BTW--neat little acronym: God's Redemption At Christ's Expense

[InquisitiveSoul]

I am a former Southern Baptist and they do teach "once saved, always saved" and while there are a great many devout Southern Baptists that live very righteous lives, there are a great many also that profess Christ, but live in a very un-Christ like manner and feel quite assured of their place in heaven.

So if it's once saved always saved and you ran off to join the Mormons, are you still saved by the Southern Baptist standard?

If so, you are covered on 2 fronts! :)

[Faded]

I was listening to Elder Mcconkie's talk on salvation by grace, and I have to say. I came from a pentecostal household, and have been to many different churches and listen to a littany of televangelists, and I know not ONE who preaches you can be saved and live in sin. While I wouldn't say that means there are none, I just don't think it is that prevalent. I am not saying there aren't those who take God's grace lightly, I am simply saying that isn't the majority view from what I have seen.

Just kinda wanted to vent on that, thanks for listening...

While I was a missionary, I remember once or twice being told straight up by a Born Again Christian that they were saved and even if they murdered somebody tomorrow, they'd still be saved and bound for Heaven. Most memorable was a lay minister who told me this, which diminishes the chances of it being a simple congregation member who misunderstood.

It is people that take the notion of being "saved" to this extent that I would say are truly missing the point and misunderstanding Christ's message entirely.

I think that the incorrect notion is this: Just because you have been snatched away from destruction and received forgiveness and a promise of salvation does not mean that God is going to take away your freedom to choose. You can choose to walk right out of his kingdom, his grace and his promise of salvation, however foolish that choice would be.

The extreme teaching of this doctrine (once saved, always saved no matter what, end of story) seems to be denomination-specific, and not applicable to all evangelical Christianity.

[prisonchaplain]

While I was a missionary, I remember once or twice being told straight up by a Born Again Christian that they were saved and even if they murdered somebody tomorrow, they'd still be saved and bound for Heaven. Most memorable was a lay minister who told me this, which diminishes the chances of it being a simple congregation member who misunderstood.

In order to drive home the point that salvation is by grace, and that yes, even a murderer can be forgiven, they lay it out that way. They don't want to talk to you about holiness expectations, "living the life," etc. because they believe you already engage in works-salvation. In tense interfaith conversation/debate we tend to emphasize and exaggerate our position, so as to be clear. So, despite your experience, the week-to-week teaching of even the most grace-alone oriented churches is not "Sin like the Devil and still go to heaven!"

[prisonchaplain]

So if it's once saved always saved and you ran off to join the Mormons, are you still saved by the Southern Baptist standard?

If so, you are covered on 2 fronts! :)

They'd probably suggest that you were never really saved.

[InquisitiveSoul]

They'd probably suggest that you were never really saved.

That's right!

It's a fine line they walk between being saved and having a blank check to sin and not really ever being saved at all. From talking to some of these folks, I think the actual idea which becomes misunderstood is they are saved even if they make mistakes as we all do. The blank check idea that some seems to suggest has to be false doctrine.

[Faded]

In order to drive home the point that salvation is by grace, and that yes, even a murderer can be forgiven, they lay it out that way. They don't want to talk to you about holiness expectations, "living the life," etc. because they believe you already engage in works-salvation. In tense interfaith conversation/debate we tend to emphasize and exaggerate our position, so as to be clear. So, despite your experience, the week-to-week teaching of even the most grace-alone oriented churches is not "Sin like the Devil and still go to heaven!"

You always so bring clarity to these sorts of topics, and I certainly appreciate it.

You can see where some do seem to come across as, "I've been saved, so now I can do whatever I want for the rest of my life with no consequences."

The unfortunate side-affect of this is that Latter Day Saints can tend to run too far in the opposite direction, when the truth is that we believe something very similar. We come unto Christ, we enter into the covenant relationship, and as long as we do not turn and walk away from Him, we can fully expect salvation. But staying in the covenant involves doing His will, keeping His commandments and putting forth out best effort. All the while, we know that we will sin, make mistakes and fall short, but we know that Christ will make up the difference for us and we do not need to live in constant terror and doubt. Unfortunately, some Latter Day Saints live in constant terror that "I'm just not good enough" and other such sentiments, and this just isn't how God wants us to live.

One thing that puzzles me about this teaching of "grace-only" sects: If a man starts down the path to God and is doing well enough, but at some point he loses his way, wanders off, stops listening to God, and becomes a perpetually sinful person. Let's use the example of a gang member who leaves a life of murder and violence. He received the message of salvation, repents, comes to Christ and lives a good life for a decade or so. But at some point, he loses faith, stops trusting in God, goes back to his gang and returns to his lifestyle of murder and violence:

1.) From the born-again evangelical view, was he ever actually saved at any point?

2.) Because he ultimately fell away, does that mean that he was never actually sincere, or that he was somehow not completely reconciled to God before he fell away?

3.) Are we agreed that he is no longer saved and bound for heaven (unless and until he returns to God)?

Edited March 18, 2010 by Faded

[Dravin]

I was listening to Elder Mcconkie's talk on salvation by grace, and I have to say. I came from a pentecostal household, and have been to many different churches and listen to a littany of televangelists, and I know not ONE who preaches you can be saved and live in sin. While I wouldn't say that means there are none, I just don't think it is that prevalent. I am not saying there aren't those who take God's grace lightly, I am simply saying that isn't the majority view from what I have seen.

Just kinda wanted to vent on that, thanks for listening...

I met more than one person who smugly pointed out that they could unrepentantly kill me where I stood and still get into heaven (this was on my mission) because once saved always saved. My understanding though is such is more of an born again (as opposed to general evangelical) attitude and attitude may be a more accurate way to state it as opposed to teaching. Because yeah, I don't see a preacher getting up and saying, "Once you've accepted Jesus go sin to your heart's content!" though I like PC's fake quote better.

[prisonchaplain]

One thing that puzzles me about this teaching of "grace-only" sects: If a man starts down the path to God and is doing well enough, but at some point he loses his way, wanders off, stops listening to God, and becomes a perpetually sinful person. Let's use the example of a gang member who leaves a life of murder and violence. He received the message of salvation, repents, comes to Christ and lives a good life for a decade or so. But at some point, he loses faith, stops trusting in God, goes back to his gang and returns to his lifestyle of murder and violence:

1.) From the born-again evangelical view, was he ever actually saved at any point?

Perhaps the most crucial clarification I can offer here is that belief in "grace alone" or "Once Saved Always Saved" is not equivalent to "born again." I'm born again, but I believe it is possible to lose salvation. So, in the case you outlined, the person fell away, and lost his salvation.

Other churches, even ones that may not emphasize the born again experience, teach that salvation, once granted will never be rescinded. So, they are left to ponder the veracity of his salvation vs. a last minute recommitment that no one knew about.

[Faded]

Thanks PC.

The "once saved always saved" folks tend to be perceived as at least a sub-group of Born Again Christians, but a group that takes their notions of grace to greater extremes than the majority. They do tend to define themselves as Born Again Christians as well. I was not aware that the other Born Again folks do not identify these people as part of the same movement/grouping.

But I know that their understanding is not universally held nor taught within Born Again Christianity.

[prisonchaplain]

Faded, I'm not sure this is worth a whole new thread, so I'll offer a brief description here. Born Again Christians are those who have had a "crisis salvation" experience. They've made a conscious commitment to Jesus, repented of their sins, and can usually tell you the circumstances surrounding that experience. I would contrast this with the historic mainline churches, which teach the faith more as an on-going experience of faith. Baptisms are generally for babies, one learns to pray very young, often does confess sins, but for these Christians asking "When did you accept Jesus?" is like asking, "So, when did you really feel good about being an American citizen?" So, the bottom line, is that "born again" generally relates specifically to how one is saved.

And it is true that many "born again" Christians are believers in salvation by faith alone, through grace. But then again, Lutherans believe in salvation by faith alone, and they are generally loathe to use the term "born again." I tease my grandmother that she is born again whether she admits it or not! :-)

[WindRiver]

Correct, it seemed to me though the implication was something like a cross between salvation by grace and eternal security.

Saved by confession, can't loose it no matter what you do. That simply isn't a message I have ever heard preached from any pulpit, even those who teach salvation by grace.

I have heard it a thousand times or more all across the bible belt.

Once you confess Jesus as your Savior NOTHING you do in this life will "un save" you.

Have you spent much time at evangelical or southern baptist meetings or talking to their members or preachers in the southern US? I find it startling that you never heard that type of statement if you have.

[bytor2112]

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the baptists teach if someone "backslides" they weren't saved to begin with?

Also, even though the baptists believe in eternal security, do they preach you can sin and still make it to heaven? I would assume they preach against sin just like anyone else.

No, they teach that the Lord may chastise you....but you are still saved by HIS grace and nothing you can do will change that.

[Traveler]

I was listening to Elder Mcconkie's talk on salvation by grace, and I have to say. I came from a pentecostal household, and have been to many different churches and listen to a littany of televangelists, and I know not ONE who preaches you can be saved and live in sin. While I wouldn't say that means there are none, I just don't think it is that prevalent. I am not saying there aren't those who take God's grace lightly, I am simply saying that isn't the majority view from what I have seen.

Just kinda wanted to vent on that, thanks for listening...

The term “salvation” is both interesting and important for someone interested in living with G-d in his Kingdom. The word salvage and salvation have the same root meaning. When we salvage something we are also making a selection process where we select that which is of worth and leave that which has no value. I have stated on other threads that sin has no value to G-d and he will not salvage sin or any degree of it.

It is by the grace of G-d that any salvage of a fallen human sole can take place. But the obvious logic is that the more sin has been allowed to take over an individual the less there is of value for G-d to salvage. Because sin has such devastating power to destroy value in an individual G-d has provided a means (or process) to remove sin and its effects. This is called repentance and baptism (enabled by Jesus Christ’s redemption through the atonement) which all together has a definite effect on what G-d through grace will and can salvage.

The Traveler

[JohnnyRudick]

Correct, it seemed to me though the implication was something like a cross between salvation by grace and eternal security.

Saved by confession, can't loose it no matter what you do. That simply isn't a message I have ever heard preached from any pulpit, even those who teach salvation by grace.

What might be helpful for you to do is a study into the T.U.L.I.P.

faiths of Christianity.

Calvinism and Arminianism with that of Martin Luther, etc.

We come from neither camp by the way:)

Edited March 19, 2010 by JohnnyRudick
Incompleate Thinking on my part here - Needed to add other part;-)

[Moksha]

God has the power of salvation and it is given through His grace. Jesus issued a call to action in his two Great Commandments. Implicit in these commandments is the need for good works.

[Faded]

Faded, I'm not sure this is worth a whole new thread, so I'll offer a brief description here. Born Again Christians are those who have had a "crisis salvation" experience. They've made a conscious commitment to Jesus, repented of their sins, and can usually tell you the circumstances surrounding that experience. I would contrast this with the historic mainline churches, which teach the faith more as an on-going experience of faith. Baptisms are generally for babies, one learns to pray very young, often does confess sins, but for these Christians asking "When did you accept Jesus?" is like asking, "So, when did you really feel good about being an American citizen?" So, the bottom line, is that "born again" generally relates specifically to how one is saved.

And it is true that many "born again" Christians are believers in salvation by faith alone, through grace. But then again, Lutherans believe in salvation by faith alone, and they are generally loathe to use the term "born again." I tease my grandmother that she is born again whether she admits it or not! :-)

Luther really did get the idea up and running, no question there!

I suppose it's a bit like our feelings about FLDS. The FLDS do a long list of astoundingly bizarre things, all the while claiming that they are the "real Mormons." In the process, they cause a great many people to make unfounded incorrect assumptions about the LDS Church.

Based on your description, they certainly would fit within the definition of "Born Again Christian."

So strange to consider that terms we all believe in can be sort of taken over by certain belief sets. All Christians believe that a person must be born again in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

[marts1]

So strange to consider that terms we all believe in can be sort of taken over by certain belief sets. All Christians believe that a person must be born again in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

...This is probably true because so many religions pick and choose what they will or will not accept from the bible.

[CommanderSouth]

Just got settled in from work and running.

The more I talk to people the more I realize how shielded I have been.

I am 24, and I grew up in a devout Pentecostal home, we've been to a plethora of meetings of all branches, Assemblies of God, Church of God, Church of God of Prophecy, from the normal sunday service to the "Signs and Wonders Campmeeting" of the mid 1990s with Rodney Browne. I've watched Copeland, Hinn, Duplantis, Crouch, Roberts and all the like growing up. It wasn't until about I was 20ish I started talking to the Churches of Christ at work, what an experience, it was like someone through water in my face. They don't believe in instrumental worship, the gifts of the spirit, basically NOTHING like we did. Of course this threw me into the whole "Joseph Smith" mode of thinking, then ended up with me in the LDS church. So if I am not as well traveled as most, I do apologize. I know that a lot of baptists teach eternal security, but seeing as we didn't really go to many baptist meetings, I am not well versed in their doctrine, or others who profess such things.

[bert10]

Here is how it works. - Wnut.

Sin is transgressing the law. When a person is led by the Spirit as it is written in Galatians...He is not under the law.

Galatians 5:18 - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

a man is justified by the Spirit

If a person is not under the law then he is not a transgressor of the law and if he is not a transgressor of the law...he is not a sinner.

---------------------------------------

John said that if a man is born of God he is not a sinner...even more than this...He said...HE CANNOT SIN....[unwillingly]

1 John 3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

We are commanded by Jesus to be perfect in LOVE as our Father in heaven is perfect in Love. [Matt 5:48] Jesus never gives a commandment that is impossible to be fulfilled. Jesus was referring to the Love of the Father.

Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Once we learn to be led by the Spirit of God..we have this promise concerning the constant cleansing that we are under by the blood of Christ...

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

To walk in the Light is to be led by the Spirit of God..and when we do...we have fellowship [real fellowship] with each other and with Christ...and as we continue to be led by the Spirit...We are cleansed from all sin by His blood

To walk in perfection of way is to be a wayfaring man as described in Isaiah ...it does not mean to be perfect without any human weaknesses. But it is to walk by the Spirit of God. And God takes care of the rest.

That is how it works. We cannot please God as the natural man. We can only please God when we become the Spiritual man...which is to be born of God who is Spirit.

Again how is this possible?...well you have it plainly in the book of Mormon by Moroni and Moses which says...

Moses 6:60 - For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

<> By Water we keep the commandment

<> We are justified by the Spirit

<>WE are sanctified by the Blood.

What Moroni at great price revealed here is not impossible...all it takes is the vision followed by Hope which will lead to faith and faith to works and then as Paul would say the Prize is in our grasp.

Moroni 10:32 - Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Moroni 10:33 - And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

Hope this help

Peace be unto you

bert10

Being that none is perfect, we are all living in sin, are we not?

Edited March 19, 2010 by bert10