Why some won't & shouldn't get into heaven

[marts1]

If I am talking with a non member I will use the word saved as Jesus intended it to used where He explains in the bible, to be saved is to repent and be baptized. Baptism is a celestial ordinance. It was PC who started this thread...just to avoid confusion.

[Traveler]

Traveler...your belief that God does not punish...is this simply based on your personal relationship with God, and that which He has shown you, or is this a common LDS teaching, grounded in official teachings and Scripture? I'm guessing that you state things stronger than the church would.

Alma 5:40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from G-d, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil.

Sometimes as a parent I would “punish” my children with the hope that in the future they would avoid things that bring spiritual harm. I believe in this life that G-d would likewise use trials – not so much to punish us but that he may give us blessings in eternity.

When we talk about a permeate or eternal state there is no longer a possibility that there could be a change. Therefore there is nothing good that could come from G-d inflicting pain and suffering. I cannot see any sense in it at all. I cannot even accept that such infliction of pain and suffering would do anything to make a single saved sinner fell better about things.

I have experienced myself the complete lack of joy that is accomplished by getting even with someone for something horrible they have done ether to me or someone I love. Jesus commanded (not just a suggestion to consider) that we do good to those that despitefully use us.

I have an extremely difficult time trying to rationalize why anyone that has experienced the goodness of G-d, despite all the evil we do and is within us, could justify that the same G-d could ever do anything but that which is good and of benefit – to anyone. I have carefully listened to all the arguments but I cannot believe, have faith or hope in such a G-d to forgive me or recommend such a G-d to anyone.

The Traveler

[Guest mysticmorini]

Alma 5:40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from G-d, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil.

Sometimes as a parent I would “punish” my children with the hope that in the future they would avoid things that bring spiritual harm. I believe in this life that G-d would likewise use trials – not so much to punish us but that he may give us blessings in eternity.

When we talk about a permeate or eternal state there is no longer a possibility that there could be a change. Therefore there is nothing good that could come from G-d inflicting pain and suffering. I cannot see any sense in it at all. I cannot even accept that such infliction of pain and suffering would do anything to make a single saved sinner fell better about things.

I have experienced myself the complete lack of joy that is accomplished by getting even with someone for something horrible they have done ether to me or someone I love. Jesus commanded (not just a suggestion to consider) that we do good to those that despitefully use us.

I have an extremely difficult time trying to rationalize why anyone that has experienced the goodness of G-d, despite all the evil we do and is within us, could justify that the same G-d could ever do anything but that which is good and of benefit – to anyone. I have carefully listened to all the arguments but I cannot believe, have faith or hope in such a G-d to forgive me or recommend such a G-d to anyone.

The Traveler

are you saying that you don't believe in eternal progression?

[prisonchaplain]

Actually, LDS teaching does, IMO, a better job of resolving the problem with evil than traditional Christianity. . . .

What followed was interesting and well said. However, it still doesn't get to the persistent accusation that if God is all powerful and all knowing, how could he have created (or organized) even one person who would eventually spend an eternity in suffering? Granted, the LDS version offers an explanation of sorts--perhaps one that seems to make God less punitive. However, again, if God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then he allowed a course of events that led to souls, however few, spending eternity in suffering. Could he not have arranged those spirits and the events of history differently?

Mind you...I do not believe we can accuse God. But that statement comes from my faith. The skeptic looks at the suffering of human history and asks "Why?" LDS agency, Protestant "free will," or Calvinist Predestination--I doubt any of these satisfy those scandalized by evil, if they are not convinced of God's goodness.

[Intrigued]

are you saying that you don't believe in eternal progression?

Quite the opposite -- that Traveler does believe in eternal progression.

[marts1]

Quite the opposite -- that Traveler does believe in eternal progression.

Do you mean a contination of lives or something else?

[Moksha]

Padre, what does God get out of having some of his Children live forever in eternal torment without hope of redemption? Would it be akin to the schadenfreude some of his followers will enjoy?

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps repeated rejection and rebellion of an Almighty and holy creator God cannot be but be eternal? Those who so harden their hearts reach a point of no return. God's love is forever--but so is his justice. Moksha, you don't believe the Outer Darkness is an eternal state of being?

[Traveler]

are you saying that you don't believe in eternal progression?

The term perdition means complete and total ruin. Are you saying you do not believe that a “son of perdition” is really possible?

The Traveler

[Moksha]

Moksha, you don't believe the Outer Darkness is an eternal state of being?

I would like to believe that even the most hardened heart might eventually see the light - that both redemption and mercy can hold ultimate sway.

[marts1]

I would like to believe that even the most hardened heart might eventually see the light - that both redemption and mercy can hold ultimate sway.

Does Satan fit into this catagory. Is he not also one of God's children?

[Traveler]

I would like to believe that even the most hardened heart might eventually see the light - that both redemption and mercy can hold ultimate sway.

When we make an honest and true choice – what possible reason could there ever be to change it? What this boils down to, in my mind, is that ether something was missing when we thought we were making a choice or it was not really us that made the choice. While we live in mortality we are not making honest and true choices. This is because when we try to make choices we are not making the choice in the full light of the knowledge of truth. I have speculated this is why we can repent in this life and why Satan will not alter his choices. We make choices without full knowledge – therefore they are choices that we may desire desperately to change (repent) when we have more knowledge. There is also the possible that we can enjoy certain sins so much that we prefer them more than living according to “light” as an honest and true choice.

Without the ability to dabble in sin under some sense of delusion – we would never be able to come to a “Knowledge” of good and evil. Many find a great deal of “fun” in sin and thus once having experienced such prefers the fun of sin over the eternal joy of good.

The Traveler

[Melissa569]

I agree there are SOME who should not get into heaven. Like people who get a thrill from killing, abusers, rapists, people who mean to bring down destruction, people who do not agree that god should be the soul lord and master...

However, people who just do little things (like maybe they cuss, or they don't go to church as often, or they've been divorced a couple of times, or have had alcohol, or shoplifted in their youth, or tried pot)-- those people aren't so horrible. And many still have very loving souls. BUT-- they should have to completely repent for those behaviors and totally give them up before they can come in. And if they die having not repented, then they should have to remain in kind of a "repent limbo" until they do.

The reason I say this is because we cannot simply say "sinners shouldn't get into heaven" because, my friend, we are ALL sinners.

There is not one human on this planet (save for maybe someone who died in infancy, or is still very little, or mentally challenged) who has never sinned.

[Dravin]

The reason I say this is because we cannot simply say "sinners shouldn't get into heaven" because, my friend, we are ALL sinners.

Which is why the scriptures talk about the unclean. We are all unclean and this is where the atonement comes in as it can make us clean if we apply it in our lives, until it is applied we remain unclean.

[marts1]

Which is why the scriptures talk about the unclean. We are all unclean and this is where the atonement comes in as it can make us clean if we apply it in our lives, until it is applied we remain unclean.

Our you saying we become a sinless person when we apply the atonement? Is it a known fact that a person can become sinless in this life?

[Dravin]

Our you saying we become a sinless person when we apply the atonement? Is it a known fact that a person can become sinless in this life?

No I am not saying that, you are conflating clean with sinless for starters. None of us (baring the standard exceptions) will make it to the next life without having sinned, we are all sinners. Therefore it is not a question of have we sinned (e. i. are we sinners) but have we applied the atonement and been cleansed.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Dravin

[Adomini22]

If "calling and election made sure" makes it so......

Not sure whether that makes you sinless or whether sin is then a technicality only.

[Traveler]

If one repents (which includes the “whole” covenant of repentance as offered by G-d the Father through the covenant of Christ’s atonement) they are sinless. If there is any sin that someone prefers over the repenting of it – they will remain “unclean” and as such their desire for that seemingly small sin will exclude them from eternal life with the Father. One of the worse sins is pride – and one of the most popular and fun aspects of pride is thinking you will get a pass for sins you are particularly attached to (do not want to give up) while others will not get a pass for their sins whatever reason you want to make up.

The Traveler

[marts1]

No I am not saying that, you are conflating clean with sinless for starters. None of us (baring the standard exceptions) will make it to the next life without having sinned, we are all sinners. Therefore it is not a question of have we sinned (e. i. are we sinners) but have we applied the atonement and been cleansed.

Just having a hard time seeing where you had a problem with Mellisa's post.

[Dravin]

Just having a hard time seeing where you had a problem with Mellisa's post.

Who says I had a problem with her post? I was just running with her sentiment that saying, "sinners shouldn't get into heaven" isn't particularly meaningful as we are all sinners and pointing out that it's a matter of clean or unclean.

[marts1]

If "calling and election made sure" makes it so......

Not sure whether that makes you sinless or whether sin is then a technicality only.

I would think if you became sinless or very close to it in this life you would be translated of which It's been a looooong time sinse I've heard of that happening.

[marts1]

Who says I had a problem with her post? I was just running with her sentiment that saying, "sinners shouldn't get into heaven" isn't particularly meaningful as we are all sinners and pointing out that it's a matter of clean or unclean.

Sounded like you had a problem..ok good you didn't.

[Adomini22]

I would think if you became sinless or very close to it in this life you would be translated of which It's been a looooong time sinse I've heard of that happening.

Recieving the second comforter and being translated are different from what I understand. That may be on a different thread though.

If you have your calling and election made sure, and are guaranteed the celestial glory, then sin would not have a big effect, I would think..... Of course, who would sin at such a high/understanding level? Beats me....

[marts1]

Recieving the second comforter and being translated are different from what I understand. That may be on a different thread though.

If you have your calling and election made sure, and are guaranteed the celestial glory, then sin would not have a big effect, I would think..... Of course, who would sin at such a high/understanding level? Beats me....

I would think so to which is why I never could understand that scripture that explains all of your sins will be of no consequence unless...

[Moksha]

The Bible contains no fewer than ten instances where Jesus explicitly refers to hell.

Do these instances actually corroborate either your or the Padre's hell or does that happen through potential interpretations? Bible scholars on PBS have said that the First Century Jewish meaning of hell was different from our later meanings.