Why does Socialism seem to lead to the decline of religion?

[volgadon]

The only government that is successful in promoting sacred morals and a spiritual society, is a government that allows it citizens to CHOOSE and exercise their free agency

There is no such government. Never was in the history of your country either. Not even during the halcyon days of the founding fathers.

[volgadon]

Additionally, socialism thrives on the "individual" doing everything for the "state" which will ultimately benefit the "community." That means that the "individual" must have complete dedication to the "state" and cannot be distracted from that goal. They cannot let morals, families, friends, etc get in the way. Religion is founded about morals, families, friends, faith, etc and a religious person is devoted to God and then the state comes afterwards. After all, how can an immoral government exist in the presence of a moral society?

Totalitarianism isn't identical with socialism.

[Guest]

Socialism allows the government to take control of our freedom and destroy our liberty.

Socialism is an economic theory, not a type of government.

Additionally, socialism thrives on the "individual" doing everything for the "state" which will ultimately benefit the "community." That means that the "individual" must have complete dedication to the "state" and cannot be distracted from that goal. They cannot let morals, families, friends, etc get in the way. Religion is founded about morals, families, friends, faith, etc and a religious person is devoted to God and then the state comes afterwards. After all, how can an immoral government exist in the presence of a moral society?

Socialism and Morality is not mutually exclusive. In God's Kingdom, everyone lives the same morality - that is, families, friends, etc. will share the same morals as you. That is the perfection of Celestial Life. In this Celestial living, the State is one with God. An immoral government, therefore, is not possible.

Another reason: religions is a way of unifying people, and a socialist government doesn't want a unified people under God, they want a unified people under the state.

The only government that is successful in promoting sacred morals and a spiritual society, is a government that allows it citizens to CHOOSE and exercise their free agency.

Remember: Socialism is an economic theory, not a system of government, nor a form of anti-religion. When you have citizens who freely choose and exercise their free agency to dedicate their lives in pure charity (that is, love), you'll end up with God's perfect people living pure socialism fully.

So, yeah, attack Marxism, Stalinism, Leninism, whatever-ism all you want. You can't really attack socialism as it is the end-game. What the world will become when Jesus Christ rules the earth.

It is sufficient to say we are not ready to live in a socialist society as we are still fallen people. That puts the error within the hearts of the people, not the system itself. The hope, therefore, lies in everyone working towards the pure love of Christ so we CAN be ready to free choose to live a socialistic life when the time comes.

From John 17:

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Edited May 27, 2012 by anatess

[Saldrin]

only a fallen people would want to live in socialism, it is the antithesis of freedom.

[volgadon]

only a fallen people would want to live in socialism, it is the antithesis of freedom.

How so?

[Hala401]

only a fallen people would want to live in socialism, it is the antithesis of freedom.

So, what sort of government will exist when the world is set aright?

[Guest]

only a fallen people would want to live in socialism, it is the antithesis of freedom.

You are sadly mistaken.

When Jesus Christ rules the earth, you will find that the perfect Law of Consecration will be fully required of each and everyone of us and everything that we are, everything that we have, will be dedicated to the Kingdom of God. EVERYTHING.

Hope you'll be ready to live it.

The more I talk about this, the more it becomes clear to me. Those who CHOOSE to live in full charity - no desire to accumulate posessions for their own self but only for the good of society - will be separated from those who will not choose to live it. And that's why we have 3 eternal kingdoms, my friend.

Capitalism is only superior because we are fallen people - where there's a need to punish greed, reward self aggrandizing work, and protect our castle. There will not be capitalism in the Kingdom of God. Because everything that we are, everything that we have, will be ONE WITH GOD.

Edited May 27, 2012 by anatess

[Sicily510]

Socialism is an economic theory, not a type of government.

Socialism and Morality is not mutually exclusive. In God's Kingdom, everyone lives the same morality - that is, families, friends, etc. will share the same morals as you. That is the perfection of Celestial Life. In this Celestial living, the State is one with God. An immoral government, therefore, is not possible.

Remember: Socialism is an economic theory, not a system of government, nor a form of anti-religion. When you have citizens who freely choose and exercise their free agency to dedicate their lives in pure charity (that is, love), you'll end up with God's perfect people living pure socialism fully.

So, yeah, attack Marxism, Stalinism, Leninism, whatever-ism all you want. You can't really attack socialism as it is the end-game. What the world will become when Jesus Christ rules the earth.

It is sufficient to say we are not ready to live in a socialist society as we are still fallen people. That puts the error within the hearts of the people, not the system itself. The hope, therefore, lies in everyone working towards the pure love of Christ so we CAN be ready to free choose to live a socialistic life when the time comes.

From John 17:

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Dictionary.com

so·cial·ism

   [soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA

noun

1.

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

2.

procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.

3.

(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

Merriam-webster.com

so·cial·ism

noun \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\

Definition of SOCIALISM

1

: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2

a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3

: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Dictionary.com

col·lec·tiv·ism

   [kuh-lek-tuh-viz-uhm] Show IPA

noun

the political principle of centralized social and economic control, especially of all means of production.

Proverbs 11:1

A false balance is a abomination to the Lord: but a just weight is his delight.

Question: Where in the definition of Socialism does it state a "Just" principle?

Answer: It does not, because socialism is characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

Proverbs 12:1

Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The instruction by our savior that we must heed to.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

We are born with the god-given entitlement of the spirit and free agency, yet we do not know where we want to be with our father or with the worldy ways. Our father in heaven has given few men to stand as witnesses of his grace yet we do not acknowledge their testimonies. I.E. prophets, priesthood holders, Young women leaders, ourselves...etc Note:This is my understanding everyone is entitled to their own....

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 ¶And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 ¶For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 ¶He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God

The supreme knowledge and answer for us to choose upon basically the light being "Good" or the evil being "dark". Honestly, I myself is like the wind blowing in every which way I may be influenced but with the knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ (the iron rod) I've been able to learn through my adolescence what was instilled in me since I was born compassion, integrity, and hope. This is a beam "spirit" that we all possess and are entitled to strengthen to make bright as the north star or let it diminish with emptiness.

“Choose you this day whom ye will serve: … but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Josh. 24:15.)

Proverbs 12:3

3 A man shall not be established by wickedness: but the root of the righteous shall not be moved.

Also in many socialist tactics I've witnessed many who want to reproof the constitution but not informing the people that we are the ones that should look into making changes and a difference. Since it clearly states "We the people" in the constitution why is it that Americans are not educated accordingly so that we may improve our own country? Imagine if our Education was focused on the histories of the spirit our founders had in building a country, the framers of the constitution was knowledgeable to make such principles that holds true and of good cause through time. I truly believe that America the beautiful is a country that was inspired by our heavenly father with principles that even the scriptures teach. How miraculous to know that America has a legal document that consecrates its traditions, philosophy, religion, and intellects with our "Creator" (heavenly father). That document is "The Declaration Of Independence", now my question is are you American? These are solutions of what I've sought for in regards to our country.

“A category of government activity which, today, not only requires the closest scrutiny, but which also poses a grave danger to our continued freedom, is the activity NOT within the proper sphere of government. No one has the authority to grant such powers, as welfare programs, schemes for re-distributing the wealth, and activities which coerce people into acting in accordance with a prescribed code of social planning. There is one simple test. Do I as an individual have a right to use force upon my neighbor to accomplish this goal? If I do have such a right, then I may delegate that power to my government to exercise on my behalf. If I do not have that right as an individual, then I cannot delegate it to government, and I cannot ask my government to perform the act for me…In reply to the argument that a little bit of socialism is good so long as it doesn't go too far, it is tempting to say that, in like fashion, just a little bit of theft or a little bit of cancer is all right, too! History proves that the growth of the welfare state is difficult to check before it comes to its full flower of dictatorship. But let us hope that this time around, the trend can be reversed. If not then we will see the inevitability of complete socialism, probably within our lifetime.”

― Ezra Taft Benson

“Rights are either God-given as part of the divine plan, or they are granted by government as part of the political plan. If we accept the premise that human rights are granted by government, then we must be willing to accept the corollary that they can be denied by government.”

― Ezra Taft Benson, The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner

“What about the lame, the sick and the destitute?” Is an often-voiced question. Most other countries in the world have attempted to use the power of government to meet this need. Yet, in every case, the improvement has been marginal at best and has resulted in the long run creating more misery, more poverty, and certainly less freedom than when government first stepped in.

Most of the major ills of the world have been caused by well-meaning people who ignored the principle of individual freedom, except as applied to themselves, and were obsessed with fanatical zeal to improve the lot of man kind-in-the-mass through some pet formula of their own… The harm dome by ordinary criminals, murderers, gangsters, and thieves is negligible in comparison with the agony inflicted upon human beings by the professional ‘do-gooder,’ who attempt to set themselves up as gods on earth and who would ruthlessly force their views on all others—with the abiding assurance that the end justifies the means.”(The Proper Role of Government, Ezra T. Benson)”

― Ezra Taft Benson

My earthly parents were born in Tonga a small tiny island in the Pacific Ocean. My dad was born to a family that helped spread the gospel of "The Church Of Jesus Christ" to the people in the village. My mom was converted at a young age....however, they wanted to come to America because they believed it to be the promise land. My great grandfather on my fathers side was the conductor and composer for the Liahona High School. A school that was established through the Mormon church. I'm very grateful for my heavenly father to enlighten me with such brothers and sisters from my ward who introduced genealogy.

“The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ would take the slums out of people, and then they would take themselves out of the slums.

The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature.”

― Ezra Taft Benson

I know that the Church Of Jesus Christ Of These Latter-days is a true church inspired by our heavenly father and distributed amongst the leaders with good spirits. The gospels, teachings, and daily doses of the mormon messages strengthens my morals and uplifts my spirit. These things I say humbly in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[Vort]

You are sadly mistaken.

When Jesus Christ rules the earth, you will find that the perfect Law of Consecration will be fully required of each and everyone of us and everything that we are, everything that we have, will be dedicated to the Kingdom of God. EVERYTHING.

Not so. The law of consecration exists RIGHT NOW. Everyone who has been through the temple has already accepted it by covenant, to be implemented immediately in their lives. The law of consecration is ALWAYS accepted by covenant and under free choice. No one is compelled to live the law of consecration, ever.

The law of consecration is not communism or socialism. This is an insidious falsehood.

[Guest]

Your entire argument falls here:

It does not, because socialism is characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

And that is ONLY applicable to Marxist, Leninist, etc. TYPE OF IMPLEMENTATION of socialism. CELESTIAL LAW or the Law of Consecration IS socialist. No, it's not Marxist, it's not Leninist, it's not Stalinist or whatever else -IST you have today. BUT, IT IS SOCIALIST.

The means of PRODUCTION, the means of DISTRIBUTION, the means of CONSUMPTION is all run BY GOD, OF GOD, and is ONE WITH GOD. And when YOU DO NOT DESIRE to be ONE with God, then you'll just have to get voted off the island.

[Vort]

CELESTIAL LAW or the Law of Consecration IS socialist. No, it's not Marxist, it's not Leninist, it's not Stalinist or whatever else -IST you have today. BUT, IT IS SOCIALIST.

This is a special definition. You are welcome to it, but don't expect anyone else to use it.

[Guest]

Not so. The law of consecration exists RIGHT NOW. Everyone who has been through the temple has already accepted it by covenant, to be implemented immediately in their lives. The law of consecration is ALWAYS accepted by covenant and under free choice. No one is compelled to live the law of consecration, ever.

The law of consecration is not communism or socialism. This is an insidious falsehood.

TODAY'S implementation of the Law of Consecration is not PERFECT. You can go find it in all the general conferences attributed to it in all of LDS.org.

When the time comes that all of mankind is ready to live the PERFECT Law, you'll end up with Socialism ON STEROIDS. Where everybody VOLUNTARILY desires to live it and the Priesthood in its perfect state will be at its head.

For now, while we are still subject to imperfect people, ANY form of socialistic implementation will fail - and that includes the perfect Law of Consecration. And you can take THAT to the bank.

[Guest]

This is a special definition. You are welcome to it, but don't expect anyone else to use it.

Of course. Because this is America. Where worlds like Socialism is given a completely different meaning by political pundits to scare people.

Kinda like Oriental. Do you know that I - an Asian - called somebody Oriental and my in-laws were shocked and finally said, "Oh, it's okay, you're Asian, you can use that word". Uh, there's a different meaning to Oriental in America?

Now, lookie here. Sicily graciously gave us the definition already:

1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.

Now, how is that not the Law of Consecration?

Edited May 27, 2012 by anatess

[volgadon]

Double post.

Edited May 27, 2012 by volgadon

[volgadon]

Proverbs 11:1

A false balance is a abomination to the Lord: but a just weight is his delight.

Question: Where in the definition of Socialism does it state a "Just" principle?

Where in the online Merriam-Webster's definition of a constitution does it state it is a "Just"(sic) principle?

Do you see how bizarre this dueling dictionaries argument is?

[volgadon]

This is a special definition. You are welcome to it, but don't expect anyone else to use it.

No, that socialism = compulsion is a special definition.

[james12]

Totalitarianism isn't identical with socialism.

"Totalitarianism is the new word we have adopted to describe the unexpected but nevertheless inseparable manifestations of what in theory we call socialism." (F. A. Hayek) In other words socialism is simply the means to the end, totalitarianism.

Let me summarize Hayek's book "The Road to Serfdom" in a few bullets. The book was first published in 1944.

- Crisis and the desire for security lead to national planning.

To gain security and mobilize an economy freedoms are surrendered.

- "Planners" promise Utopias for each individual segment of the economy.

Farmers get one plan, repair men another, teachers yet another.

- "Planners" and citizens cannot agree on one Utopia.

Inevitably these plans clash and the perfect plan for the farmer causes problems for the teacher.

- "Planners" work to get agreement.

In order to get agreement some planners try to silence others or create propaganda.

- Confidence in planners fades.

The public sees the planners cannot get things done and lose confidence.

- In desperation planners authorize a new leader willing to hammer out a plan at any cost.

This new leader will uses any means to get agreement. He may focus on a negative unifying plan instead of a positive task such as envy of those better off or hatred of an enemy.

- The new leader faced with disagreement on multiple sides must disregard morals and force obedience.

Even with this negative unifying plan the leader must physically force some to obey.

- No one is allowed to oppose the leaders plan.

The ability to force obedience now becomes the primary virtue. The Utopian goal must be maintained at all costs.

- To effectively have people serve the leaders plan disagreement must cease and everyone believe in the plan.

It is not enough simply to force people to follow but they must fully agree. This requires changed beliefs and reaches even down to religion. (Perhaps this in some respects answers the original question of the thread.)

Thus, socialism becomes tyranny and freedom becomes servitude. No doubt some will disagree with the above, but history has proven the point a number of times.

Edited May 27, 2012 by james12

[Sicily510]

It all comes down to our own indvidual questions.....

Does heavenly father measure us as a society or individually?

Are the worth of souls expedient to the eyes of our heavenly father?

Are we capable of being Christ like in our deeds?

Why does the lord ordain certain men to administer the perfected gospel "Jesus Christ"?

Did heavenly father build a nation under his law? And if so where is this nation?

Socialism is a theory but to equate it with "Law of consecration" is heinous because this (law of consecration) is a sacred law of morals, line upon line guidance, and heavenly fathers plan. Whereas, socialism was a theory derived from men to be understood by men without the true understanding and significance of our heavenly fathers plan. That is why there is the laws of men and laws of higher powers and that the American constitution is to separate religion from state. Laws of the state, supreme, judicial and constitution if we unite utilizing the socialism theory of men then we are trying to perfect a law that deems us incapable of heavenly fathers law which is above all. It would be like we would reason with heavenly father to lower his expectations of us. Now is that being humble? To oppose to a higher understanding of our heavenly father by equating socialism against him instead of proving ouselves for him?

And socialism contradicts the purpose of Jesus Christ's Atonement, because it would be like we don't need to go through Jesus Christ to return to heavenly father (which we do). And heavenly father doesn't distribute earthly materials because it has no value to him, why do you think we are easily tempted by our adversary to be influenced by such things? Why are we given the opportunity to distribute amongst each other? It's a test of our faith, integrity, and loyalty to heavenly father that we desire him. Satan wants us to be confused and always seek for reproval to rationalize our iniquities, Jesus Christ teaches us humility, accountablity, and responsibilities for our own eternal salvation after all we must sacrifice change for the greater goodness of our hearts and faithfulness to heavenly father.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Sicily510

[volgadon]

It all comes down to our own indvidual questions.....

Does heavenly father measure us as a society or individually?

Both. He is especially concerned with how we relate to others within our society.

Socialism is a theory but to equate it with "Law of consecration" is heinous because this (law of consecration) is a sacred law of morals, line upon line guidance, and heavenly fathers plan. Whereas, socialism was a theory derived from men to be understood by men without the true understanding and significance of our heavenly fathers plan.

We aren't talking so much of the motive as of the method, or classification. Socilaism isn't a unified theory, socialism/communism/communalism are kinds of socio-economic theories.

[annewandering]

You are sadly mistaken.

When Jesus Christ rules the earth, you will find that the perfect Law of Consecration will be fully required of each and everyone of us and everything that we are, everything that we have, will be dedicated to the Kingdom of God. EVERYTHING.

Hope you'll be ready to live it.

The more I talk about this, the more it becomes clear to me. Those who CHOOSE to live in full charity - no desire to accumulate posessions for their own self but only for the good of society - will be separated from those who will not choose to live it. And that's why we have 3 eternal kingdoms, my friend.

Capitalism is only superior because we are fallen people - where there's a need to punish greed, reward self aggrandizing work, and protect our castle. There will not be capitalism in the Kingdom of God. Because everything that we are, everything that we have, will be ONE WITH GOD.

Bravo Anatess! Couldnt have said it better. :)

[Sicily510]

You are sadly mistaken.

When Jesus Christ rules the earth, you will find that the perfect Law of Consecration will be fully required of each and everyone of us and everything that we are, everything that we have, will be dedicated to the Kingdom of God. EVERYTHING.

Hope you'll be ready to live it.

The more I talk about this, the more it becomes clear to me. Those who CHOOSE to live in full charity - no desire to accumulate posessions for their own self but only for the good of society - will be separated from those who will not choose to live it. And that's why we have 3 eternal kingdoms, my friend.

Capitalism is only superior because we are fallen people - where there's a need to punish greed, reward self aggrandizing work, and protect our castle. There will not be capitalism in the Kingdom of God. Because everything that we are, everything that we have, will be ONE WITH GOD.

You state that "The more I talk about this, the more it becomes clear to me. Those who CHOOSE to live in full charity - no desire to accumulate posessions for their own self but only for the good of society - will be separated from those who will not choose to live it."

I'm confused.....what's wrong with full charity?

Kingdoms of Glory

Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected. After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our desires and actions. Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, "In my Father's house are many mansions" (John 14:2).

There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord's commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have "received the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

Lets not construe nor persecute but lead with correct principles that are referenced in the scriptures. And I apologize if I misunderstood because your statement "When Jesus Christ rules the earth, you will find that the perfect Law of Consecration will be fully required of each and everyone of us and everything that we are, everything that we have, will be dedicated to the Kingdom of God. EVERYTHING. Do you mean possession? I thought that we are taught we don't take any possessions but our spirit to the lord. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Sicily510
excluded some explanations

[Tyler90AZ]

To compare totalitarianism to socialism is ridiculous.

To say that the United Order was not a form of communism is ridiculous.

Jesus Christ appears to be a communist!

[Tyler90AZ]

To ram regarding Healthcare not being a requirement:

From the spiritual point of view

When Jesus came to the Americas before he taught the people he made sure their temporal needs were met.One of those temporal needs he met was heeling the sick. Then after the temporal needs were met he taught spiritual things.

From another perspective:

I just don't feel it is right to have people sick when we can afford to heal them.Just think about a dying person who could be saved with healthcare.

------------------

During the United Order they were required to give their excess back to the church. Basically the only property that was private ownership was a plot of land. That is definitely a form of communism... Even if they wouldn't have been told to give back excess it still would be Communism. The economic theory Zion goes by is communism. James, I understand that you are saying there is more to the United Order, you are correct. The United Order was political, economical and religious. That doesn't negate that fact that it was economically communist.

-----------------

As far as Capitalism is concerned:

People tout capitalism because they say it has never failed. Well the thing is that it is a fairly new economic theory.

ANother thing is that capitalism is the most exploitable economic theory. Everybody is exploit for the dollar... You can see that by the way the wealth gap has shot up. The rich are only getting richer. If the occupy movement didn't raise awareness it would have only continued.

-----------------

As far as the law of consecration in the temple:

Vort, do you not think for a minute that the definition of the law of consecration changed the moment the United Order failed? Basically what I am saying is that it was in the Temple when the United ORder was going on also. The whole explanation of the Law of Consecration is about the United Order. Nobody and I repeat nobody lives up to the Law of Consecration, that would take giving everything you have. You would have nothing but your needs met.

-----------------

Totalitarianism does not equal socialism

Socialism is an economic theory.

Totalitarianism is a political theory.

[Guest]

You state that "The more I talk about this, the more it becomes clear to me. Those who CHOOSE to live in full charity - no desire to accumulate posessions for their own self but only for the good of society - will be separated from those who will not choose to live it."

I'm confused.....what's wrong with full charity?

Nothing. Why do you think there's something wrong with it? Full Charity is perfection.

Oh, I think I know where this comes from. Because, in your understanding - Socialism = Wrong. Not that the different types of implementation of Socialism that has so far been attempted are wrong... no, you equate Socialism itself as wrong. Therefore, when I said that Socialism is full charity you immediately assign Wrong to it.

But see, analyze that. Socialism is full charity. That means there's nothing wrong with it. Only the attempted implementations of it are wrong.

Okay, I'll put up a juxtaposition. See if you can follow this. The Plan of Salvation was perfect. Jesus Christ offered a way of implementing the Plan of Salvation through His Atonement. Lucifer offered his own way of implementing the Plan of Salvation - by removing choice. Now, Lucifer's implementation is wrong. But Lucifer's implementation does not make the principle of the Plan of Salvation itself wrong.

In the same token, the attempted major implementations of Socialism (Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc. etc.) may be wrong but it doesn't make the principles of Socialism itself as wrong.

Kingdoms of Glory

Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected. After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our desires and actions. Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, "In my Father's house are many mansions" (John 14:2).

There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord's commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have "received the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

Lets not construe nor persecute but lead with correct principles that are referenced in the scriptures. And I apologize if I misunderstood because your statement "When Jesus Christ rules the earth, you will find that the perfect Law of Consecration will be fully required of each and everyone of us and everything that we are, everything that we have, will be dedicated to the Kingdom of God. EVERYTHING. Do you mean possession? I thought that we are taught we don't take any possessions but our spirit to the lord. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Socialism is not just possessions... I'm not talking merely of Market Socialism. I'm talking about Socialism as... everything that makes a society function.

When I said Everything that we are and everything that we have, I mean EVERYTHING - our talents, our knowledge, our production. On the Second Coming, Christ will come to earth in power and glory. And during this time, Jesus Christ will govern and divide those who are ready to live His Law from those who are not. Capitalism will not have a place in this society anymore, I don't think. Socialist principles will apply with Jesus Christ at its head.

Now, the reason I'm pointing all these out is because it was trigerred by somebody (I don't remember anymore who) said that Socialism is Satan's Plan. All I'm trying to do is point out to you guys that Socialism as a principle or a socio-economic theory is closest to how it is in God's Kingdom as we know it.

Edited May 28, 2012 by anatess

[Sicily510]

Nothing. Why do you think there's something wrong with it? Full Charity is perfection.

Oh, I think I know where this comes from. Because, in your understanding - Socialism = Wrong. Not that the different types of implementation of Socialism that has so far been attempted are wrong... no, you equate Socialism itself as wrong. Therefore, when I said that Socialism is full charity you immediately assign Wrong to it.

But see, analyze that. Socialism is full charity. That means there's nothing wrong with it. Only the attempted implementations of it are wrong.

Okay, I'll put up a juxtaposition. See if you can follow this. The Plan of Salvation was perfect. Jesus Christ offered a way of implementing the Plan of Salvation through His Atonement. Lucifer offered his own way of implementing the Plan of Salvation - by removing choice. Now, Lucifer's implementation is wrong. But Lucifer's implementation does not make the principle of the Plan of Salvation itself wrong.

In the same token, the attempted major implementations of Socialism (Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc. etc.) may be wrong but it doesn't make the principles of Socialism itself as wrong.

Socialism is not just possessions... I'm not talking merely of Market Socialism. I'm talking about Socialism as... everything that makes a society function.

When I said Everything that we are and everything that we have, I mean EVERYTHING - our talents, our knowledge, our production. On the Second Coming, Christ will come to earth in power and glory. And during this time, Jesus Christ will govern and divide those who are ready to live His Law from those who are not. Capitalism will not have a place in this society anymore, I don't think. Socialist principles will apply with Jesus Christ at its head.

Now, the reason I'm pointing all these out is because it was trigerred by somebody (I don't remember anymore who) said that Socialism is Satan's Plan. All I'm trying to do is point out to you guys that Socialism as a principle or a socio-economic theory is closest to how it is in God's Kingdom as we know it.

What I don't follow is where do you get that socialism is full charity? I would like to share a link, I also pasted the body of the website here:

http://http://www.latterdayconservative.com/faq/is-socialism-wrong-and-what-is-socialism/

Is Socialism Wrong? And What is Socialism?

Occasionally I get emails from people asking for statements from the prophets on socialism. These requests typically come as a result of discussions with other Latter-day Saints who don’t understand why socialism is evil, or even understand what socialism is. Some of the latest questions have stemmed from discussions with those who don’t understand why government controlled health care is socialistic.

One of the purposes of my website ( Latter-day Conservative - LDS Prophets, America, Freedom, Liberty, Constitution, Mormon Politics ) is to show that it’s not just my opinion that socialism is wrong, but that the latter-day prophets since Joseph Smith have also taught that socialism is wrong, and more than that, they’ve also defined it.

I have compiled the following quotes in attempt to answer the question “Is socialism wrong? And what exactly is socialism?” These are not my words, only the words of the prophets. Also keep in mind that these are only some of the statements regarding socialism. The prophets have also told us that we should uphold the US Constitution, yet the socialistic laws and policies within the government are in violation of the Constitution. The prophets have also made many statements against communism, which shares many of the same ideas as socialism.

Is Socialism Wrong? And What is Socialism?

Joseph Smith

“

“I attended a second lecture on Socialism, by Mr. Finch; and after he got through, I made a few remarks… I said I did not believe the doctrine.” (History of the Church 6:33)

”

Heber J. Grant

“

“We again warn our people in America of the constantly increasing threat against our inspired Constitution and our free institutions set up under it. The same political tenets and philosophies that have brought war and terror in other parts of the world are at work amongst us in America…

“… Communism and all other similar isms bear no relationship whatever to the United Order. They are merely the clumsy counterfeits which Satan always devises of the gospel plan… Latter-day Saints cannot be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies. They will prove snares to their feet.” (Grant and McKay 273, 343)

”

David O. McKay

“

“Church members are at perfect liberty to act according to their own consciences in the matter of safeguarding our way of life. They are, of course, encouraged to honor the highest standards of the gospel and to work to preserve their own freedoms. They are free to participate in non-church meetings that are held to warn people of the threat of Communism or any other theory or principle that will deprive us of our free agency or individual liberties vouchsafed by the Constitution of the United States.” (”Statement Concerning the Position of the Church on Communism” 477)

”

First Presidency 1941 ( Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., David O. McKay )

“

“We believe that our real threat comes from within and not from without, and it comes from that underlying spirit common to Nazism, Fascism, and Communism, namely, the spirit which would array class against class, which would set up a socialistic state of some sort, which would rob the people of the liberties which we possess under the Constitution…

“As we see it, there is no way in which we can, to use your own words, “preserve and perpetuate our freedom—freedom to govern ourselves, freedom of speech, and freedom to worship God according to our own light,” except we shall turn away from our present course and resume the normal course along which this great country traveled to its present high eminence of prosperity, of culture, of universal education, and of the peace and contentment which we enjoyed prior to the inauguration of the “New Deal”. (1932-3)

“These things are not matters of partisan politics with us. We care nothing as Church leaders about partisan politics as such, nor about the dominance of one party or the other. We grant to every man the right to vote as he wishes, and we would not control his vote even if we could. But we do reserve to ourselves the right to tell our people what we think is right regarding politics as affecting the fundamentals of our government system, to warn them of the dangers that lie under the present course, and to try to persuade them that their peace, their happiness, and their security do not lie along the path of the present trends of government.

“Truly, we do not believe that—again to quote your own words—we can “preserve and perpetuate our freedom—freedom to govern ourselves, freedom of speech, and freedom to worship God according to our own light” unless we turn squarely about and return to the old-time virtues, and re-enthrone our liberties and free institutions.” (A Letter to the Treasury from the LDS First Presidency in 1941 )

”

Ezra Taft Benson

“

“No true Latter-day Saint can be a Communist or a Socialist because Communist principles run counter to the revealed word of God and to the Constitution of this land which was established by men whom the God of Heaven raised up unto that very purpose [D&C 101:80].” (”A Four-Fold Hope” 11)

“President McKay has said a lot about our tragic trends towards socialism and communism and the responsibilities liberty-loving people have in defending and preserving our Constitution. (See Conference Report, Apr 1963, pp. 112-13.) Have we read these words from God’s mouthpiece and pondered on them?” (”Be Not Deceived” 1064; compare GFC 340)

“Let us not be deceived in the sifting days ahead. Let us rally together on principle behind the prophet as guided by the promptings of the Spirit. We should continue to speak out for freedom and against socialism and communism. We should continue to come to the aid of patriots, programs, and organizations that are trying to save our Constitution through every legal and moral means possible.” (”Be Not Deceived” 1065; compare GFC 342)

“We must be righteous and moral. We must live the gospel principles—all of them. We have no right to expect a higher degree of morality from those who represent us than what we ourselves are. In the final analysis, people generally get the kind of government they deserve. To live a higher law means we will not seek to receive what we have not earned by our own labor. It means we will remember that government owes us nothing. It means we will keep the laws of the land. It means we will look to God as our Lawgiver and the Source of our liberty.” (CHB 28-31)

“I fear for the future when I realize that for some thirty years our once-free institutions, political, economic, educational and social, have been drifting into the hands of those who favor the Welfare State, and who would “centralize all power in the hands of the political apparatus in Washington. This enhancement of political power at the expense of individual rights, so often disguised as ‘democracy’ or ‘freedom’ or ‘civil rights,’ is ’socialism,’ no matter what name tag it bears…

“I fear for the future when I see an affluent but complacent citizenry paying little or no attention to these and many other socialistic trends in America.

“Dr. V. Orval Watts, noted political economist, has described this socialist system which I fear-and I have but suggested a very few evidences. Here are his words: ‘Socialism… is the theory and practice of coercive collectivism. It is the evil fruit of greed for other men’s possessions and greed for control over other men’s labor.’” (Elder Ezra Taft Benson December 10 1963. A Race Against Time.)

“We have moved a long way – and are now moving further and more rapidly down the soul-destroying road of socialism. The evidence is clear – shockingly clear for all to see…

“Now we should all be opposed to Socialistic-Communism, for it is our mortal and spiritual enemy – the greatest evil in the world today. But the reason many liberals don’t want the American people to form study groups to really understand and than fight Socialistic-Communism is that once the American people get the facts they will begin to realize that much of what these liberals advocate is actually helping the enemy.

“The liberals hope you’ll believe them when they tell you how anti-Communist they are. But they become alarmed if you really inform yourself on the subject of Socialistic-Communism. For after you inform yourself you might begin to study the liberal voting record. And this study would show you how much the liberals are giving aid and comfort to the enemy and how much the liberals are actually leading America towards Socialism itself.

“For Communism is just another form of socialism, as is fascism. So now you can see the picture. These liberals want you to know how much they are doing for you – with your tax money of course. But they don’t want you to realize that the path they are pursuing is socialistic, and that socialism is the same as communism in its ultimate effect on our liberties. When you point this out they want to shut you up – they accuse you of maligning them, of casting aspersions, of being political. No matter whether they label their bottle as liberalism, progressivism, or social reform – I know the contents of the bottle is poison to this Republic and I’m going to call it poison.” (Ezra Taft Benson. Stand Up For Freedom. Assembly Hall at Temple Square, Feb 11, 1966. Given to The Utah Forum for the American Idea)

”

Howard W. Hunter

“

“You were given a great message by Elder Marion G. Romney which was inspiring and profound. He compared socialism with the United Order. I encourage you to study carefully that message. He gave much of the basic theory, the principles, the similarities and the differences between these two basically conflicting systems. As I accept his premises, logic, and conclusions, with your permission, at this time, I would like to use his message as a springboard for my own. The basic principle in his message is the same principle in mine, as already discussed – the principle of the Law of the Harvest – As a Man Sows, So Shall He Reap.

“From my own experience in business and as a lawyer and church worker, and from my firsthand observations in this country and other countries of the world, there appears to me to be a trend to shift responsibility for life and its processes from the individual to the state. In this shift there is a basic violation of the law of the harvest, or the law of justice. The attitude of “something for nothing” is encouraged. The government is often looked to as the source of wealth. There is a feeling that the government should step in and take care of one’s needs, one’s emergencies, and one’s future. Just as my friend actually became a slave to his own ignorance and bad habits by refusing to accept the responsibility for his own education and moral growth, so, also, can an entire people be imperceptibly transferred from individuals, families, and communities to the federal government…

“What is the real cause of this trend toward the welfare state, toward more socialism? In the last analysis, in my judgment, it is personal unrighteousness. When people do not use their freedoms responsibly and righteously, they will gradually lose these freedoms…

“If man will not recognize the inequalities around him and voluntarily, through the gospel plan, come to the aid of his brother, he will find that through “a democratic process” he will be forced to come to the aid of his brother. The government will take from the “haves” and give to the “have nots.” Both have last their freedom. Those who “have,” lost their freedom to give voluntarily of their own free will and in the way they desire. Those who “have not,” lost their freedom because they did not earn what they received. They got “something for nothing,” and they will neither appreciate the gift nor the giver of the gift.

“Under this climate, people gradually become blind to what has happened and to the vital freedoms which they have lost.”

(Speeches of the Year 1965-1966, pp. 1-11, “The Law of the Harvest.” Devotional Address, Brigham Young University, 8 March 1966.)

”

I would also recommend that everyone read the talk by Elder Marion G. Romney entitled “Is Socialism the United Order?” This talk was recommended by Elder Hunter, and as mentioned by Elder Romney, he was asked by “the Brethren” to give this talk in General Conference Priesthood meeting of April, 1966. Here are some excerpts from that talk:

“

“Thus in both implementation and ownership and management of property, the United Order preserves to men their God-given agency, while socialism deprives them of it… Socialism is political, both in theory and practice. It is thus exposed to, and riddled by, the corruption that plagues and finally destroys all political governments that undertake to abridge man’s agency.

“…No, brethren, socialism is not the United Order. However, notwithstanding my abhorrence of it, I am persuaded that socialism is the wave of the present and of the foreseeable future. It has already taken over or is contending for control in most nations.

“We here in the United States, in converting our government into a social welfare state, have ourselves adopted much of socialism. Specifically, we have to an alarming degree adopted the use of the power of the state in the control and distribution of the fruits of industry. We are on notice according to the words of the President, that we are going much further, for he is quoted as saying: ‘We’re going to take all the money we think is unnecessarily being spent and take it from the ‘haves’ and give it to the ‘have nots.’” (1964 Congressional Record, p. 6142, Remarks of the President to a Group of Leaders of Organizations of Senior Citizens in the Fish Room, March 24, 1964.)

“Socialism takes: United Order gives.

“That is the spirit of socialism: We’re going to take. The spirit of the United Order is: We’re going to give.

”

Even the scriptures warn us against socialism:

“

“Wo unto you poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men’s goods, whose eyes are full of greediness, and who will not labor with your own hands!” (D&C 56:17)

“They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.” (Isaiah 65:22)

”

What greater condemnation of Socialism could there be than from God himself? A witness from the Old Testament, and one from the current dispensation through Joseph Smith, as well as many other warnings through His prophets and apostles throughout the years.

I recognize that some people, with good intentions, have been deceived into thinking that socialism is good. I think what needs to be realized and understood by those who feel that socialism is in line with the Gospel and teachings of Christ is that the problem is not regarding whether or not we should help each other, we do have a responsibility to help those in need, the problem is in others using force and violating our agency to accomplish it. The ends do not justify the means. Socialism violates man’s agency. We must be free to give unto others of our own choosing.

Socialism and other false “isms” which take away our agency are part of an ongoing battle; the war that started in heaven continues on earth today.

Also another link that relates:

The War in Heaven on Earth Today

The War in Heaven on Earth Today – Latter-day Conservative

I believe that socialism is wrong because I see many socialist who dictate but never participate in helping improve California from the inside out, I stay in East Oakland where I see homeless in every corner. The state is focused on budget cuts from the welfare system, cutting self-sufficiency programs and has minimal job opportunities. One of the main concerns is a social movement involving "Gay Rights", this movement has become more important than the educational system. We have campaigns that are promoting "Vote No on C", this will gradually take away the education from the youths of today and tomorrow. I pray for my two kids, I have hardship supporting them and I'm a single mother. I know that through church and hardwork I am able to accomplish much, that is why I am here today. Trust the adversary works in his wicked little schemes of self-pitty, self-worth, he delighteths in making me feel miserable and weary. With heavenly father and Jesus Christ embracing me through the holy spirit and the gospel I am able to thrive and overcome the many obstacles.