Changes to Unofficial Mormon Doctrines/Culture

[InquisitiveSoul]

As I mentioned before, I've been reviewing my notes from the period when I was investigating the church. I made some notes regarding changes to Mormon Culture.

One thing I've wondered about is soft drinks containing caffeine. I'm aware of the fact that there isn't any official doctrine prohibiting members from drinking Pepsi or Mt Dew. Certainly, one can argue you will enjoy better health if you stay away from products such as Pepsi, but it's a personal choice.

When I was growing up and saw Mormon kids, it was a well known "fact" among non Mormons that our Mormon friends didn't drink Coke or Pepsi. When we would have them over we would always make sure we had some lemonade on hand. I can remember one kid who would buy a Coke after school and drink it on the bus before he arrived at his stop and might run into his parents who forbid caffeine.

Fast forward 15 years, Elders at my house, I offer them a drink and frequently one asked for a Dr Pepper or a soft drink containing caffeine. What happened? What changed? It seems Mormons went from being peculiar in the sense that they abstained from caffeine even though it isn't specifically mentioned in the Word of Wisdom.

There seems to be other areas where Mormon Culture has changed gradually. Rated R movies doesn't seem to be a big deal it was 20 years ago. Again you can argue ratings are subjective, but the emphasis is gone.

Maybe the change comes from Mormon parents being less strict than in the past? What do you think?

[Elgama]

Pepsi and Coca Cola recipes have changed since the 60s as well:) How things are rated at the cinema has changed. It is now quite acceptable for a woman to leave her bustle and corset behind when she leaves the house and we can show a bit of ankle in our dress without offending anyone:)

[InquisitiveSoul]

Pepsi and Coca Cola recipes have changed since the 60s as well:) How things are rated at the cinema has changed. It is now quite acceptable for a woman to leave her bustle and corset behind when she leaves the house and we can show a bit of ankle in our dress without offending anyone:)

This is true!

[Elgama]

This is true!

just maybe these things are left to the members and don't become doctrine because Heavenly Father knows the reason foir abstaining will change clearly with tea and coffee etc its unlikely to evolve in the same way

[Suzie]

Mormon Culture has changed gradually during the years, could it be social pressure, modern parenthood, ...not sure. Now for me personally I never truly understood the big deal about Coke or similar soft drinks. Personally, I don't drink it but again, I don't drink much soft drinks. I rather water. I have seen members reject the whole idea of drinking Pepsi but they would eat half of an apple pie by themselves, 3 big slices of chocolate cake or a huge t-bone steak with mash potatoes and gravy and a whole pastry for dessert without second thoughts whatsoever. It's silly to me.

[Wingnut]

Social norms + a new generation = changes in culture

[Tarnished]

I grew up in a household where no caffeine and no rated R movies was a hard and fast rule. I made sure my friends knew that I could not drink caffeine or watch R rated movies. I was ok with it all.

Then I went off to college and had a culture shock. There were many members who would drink caffeine and watch R rated movies. I will admit that it shook me up a bit. Eventually I fell in love with a boy and got married, he drinks caffeine and watches R rated movies but is an active member. What I learned from my experience is this: We have been advised not to watch R rated movies, but it is still a choice of ours. There are some R rated movies that I would consider more ok than others. As for caffeine it is a decision that we have to make in our homes. There is no actual rule that we must avoid caffeine. Currently in my marriage my husband drinks caffeine and I do not. I have chosen not to not really because I think I "should" but rather because I don't like the way my body reacts to it. I am drug sensitive, meaning different drugs affect me more extremely than others. One can of caffenated soda can give me the jitters for the entire day. And there have been some cold medicine that with a normal dose has given me halucinations. As such I avoid drugs as much as I can and caffiene is one of those.

As far as R rated movies, we own quite a few. However as we are currently pregnant I plan to cut that number down as there are some movies I really do not want in my house with a child around.

It really comes down to how each member chooses to live their life. Some people choose to do things one way and others choose another way, when it comes to caffeine and movies no one way is right, it just depends on what you feel is best for your family.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I think R-rated movies have gained wider acceptance because it's just so easy to get one and watch it privately now. Years ago, you had to make a conscious decision to find a theatre, drive there, pay a fee, and maybe even convince someone to go with you.

Now, you can just drive up to the redbox and get one anonymously, watch it alone, and its just plain easy. You can even download them.

Regarding caffeine drinks, they aren't part of the Temple Recommend interview questions specifically, so there's no impunity for drinking them.

And finally the growth of the Church brings in non-members who don't break free of old habits easily. Many struggle with the hard commandments like coffee and tea; they hang on to old habits that are discouraged by the interpretive commandments like r-rated movies and cola drinks.

[martybess]

I think things haven't changed that much as far as soft drinks go. I think those friends you had back then had parents who taught them that it wasn't right but there were still ppl who drank it. I bet the ratio of ppl who do and who don't hasn't changed that much either. There are extremist (not the right word but you know what I mean) in every society. There is no commandment from the prophet not to drink coke but as far as R rated movies go the Prophet of God told us not to watch them and this is blatantly ignored by ppl.

"We counsel you, young men, not to pollute your minds with such degrading matter, for the mind through which this filth passes is never the same afterwards. Don’t see R-rated movies or vulgar videos or participate in any entertainment that is immoral, suggestive, or pornographic. Don’t listen to music that is degrading. " Ezra Taft Benson, “To the ‘Youth of the Noble Birthright’,” Ensign, May 1986, 43

[Vanhin]

Mormon Culture has changed gradually during the years, could it be social pressure, modern parenthood, ...not sure. Now for me personally I never truly understood the big deal about Coke or similar soft drinks. Personally, I don't drink it but again, I don't drink much soft drinks. I rather water. I have seen members reject the whole idea of drinking Pepsi but they would eat half of an apple pie by themselves, 3 big slices of chocolate cake or a huge t-bone steak with mash potatoes and gravy and a whole pastry for dessert without second thoughts whatsoever. It's silly to me.

Okay, now I'm hungry... Thanks.

Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

Pepsi and Coca Cola recipes have changed since the 60s as well:) How things are rated at the cinema has changed. It is now quite acceptable for a woman to leave her bustle and corset behind when she leaves the house and we can show a bit of ankle in our dress without offending anyone:)

:lol::lol:

[Maureen]

In the '70's my LDS friend would say "Lips that touch Coke, will never touch mine." It definitely was taboo to drink these kind of soft drinks. When my SIL went off to BYU in the '80's, it was very common to have Coke in the vending machines. Maybe a few people took notice that soft drinks with caffeine were really not part of the WofW and it took flight. Maybe members started to distinguish doctrine from habit and changed the habit. And cultural habits will be different in different locations. I wonder how many UK LDS members still drink tea?

M.

[Vanhin]

I think the reason caffeinated drinks were ever lumped in with the Word of Wisdom by some members was because they needed a reason in their mind for the prohibition against coffee and tea. Something they could tell their non-member friends as the reason. So if it's not good to drink it in coffee then it must not be good to drink it in soft drinks, if caffeine is the reason.

However, the Lord has not mentioned any specific substances in coffee or tea as the reason for the prohibition. The Lord said we shouldn't drink "hot drinks" and the Church has clarified that that means coffee and tea. That's it. There are many harmful substances in those drinks besides caffeine. Though, caffeine adds to the damage because it gets you hooked on those harmful substances. Ultimately, you don't need a reason, just don't drink coffee or tea.

The rating system of movies are the rating system of men. Some PG movies are as bad as R movies of old. We should follow the guidance of the Spirit and make our own choices.

I knew a good brother who abstained from PG-13 movies. Did not allow them into his house. So I asked him, "So, you have not seen Lord of the Rings?" he said nope. He told me that all his friends who like those movies are almost like a cult following. They quote from it like scriptures. He said the only exceptions he ever made to watching PG-13 movies was "Star Wars"... He said, "Hey, it's Star Wars!! I'm not going to miss those movies."

Oh the irony...

Regards,

Vanhin

[Wingnut]

In the '70's my LDS friend would say "Lips that touch Coke, will never touch mine." It definitely was taboo to drink these kind of soft drinks. When my SIL went off to BYU in the '80's, it was very common to have Coke in the vending machines. Maybe a few people took notice that soft drinks with caffeine were really not part of the WofW and it took flight. Maybe members started to distinguish doctrine from habit and changed the habit. And cultural habits will be different in different locations. I wonder how many UK LDS members still drink tea?

M.

Yet when I was at BYU in the late 90's, all they had in the cafeterias were caffeine-free Coke and Diet Coke. It's the only place I've ever seen or heard of caffeine-free Barq's root beer.

Because Barq's wasn't disgusting enough already.

[Hemidakota]

Vanhin, how true.

Even dark chocolate is considered higher in caffeinated count than coffee or tea. I cannot see if we begin with soda, we better add chocolate candy, ice cream, cakes, and so forth.

[Vanhin]

Yet when I was at BYU in the late 90's, all they had in the cafeterias were caffeine-free Coke and Diet Coke. It's the only place I've ever seen or heard of caffeine-free Barq's root beer.

Because Barq's wasn't disgusting enough already.

I love Barq's... Maybe it's because of the "bite". Hehe.

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

On a side note.

I have now stopped drinking caffeine, but only because it was causing me to drink way too much soda. I lost 8 lbs in the first 3 weeks from not drinking so much pop alone... But I don't go around preaching it to others as the gospel truth.

Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

Same here and so did my wife. Amazing how many empty calories soda really has.

Hard part for us Americans, habitual movie goer, buying popcorn is never without soda to wash it down. I don't how the family will like popcorn and water together as a combo.

[Vanhin]

Vanhin, how true.

Even dark chocolate is considered higher in caffeinated count than coffee or tea. I cannot see if we begin with soda, we better add chocolate candy, ice cream, cakes, and so forth.

Exactly,

I am so grateful that God does not command us in all things. He allows us to make choices for ourselves.

It makes me think of this scripture.

27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward. (D&C 58:27-28)

All the Lord requires from us right now is something that is adapted to the weakest of us. Something any of us should be able to do without any problem. Beyond that, he allows us to make our own choices.

From the WoW:

Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints. (D&C 89:3)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Same here and so did my wife. Amazing how many empty calories soda really has.

Hard part for us Americans, habitual movie goer, buying popcorn is never without soda to wash it down. I don't how the family will like popcorn and water together as a combo.

I love flavored carbonated water now. It helps me through. Some of it has a good bit of sodium still in it, but way better than before.

Regards,

Vanhin

[MarginOfError]

My soda of choice is Pepsi. But I don't drink it. But my choice has nothing to do with the Word of Wisdom and everything to do with the fact that regular consumption of it has no benefit to it at all. I do, however, by a couple liters when I have to drive long distances (or for any scout trip). I find the benefit of being awake while driving to far outweigh any [negligible*] damage it might do to my health.

*when it's consumed only once every month or two it just won't have a chance to take effect.

[Saguaro]

One problem with the prohibition on R rated movies is that the rating system is very inconsistent. Many PG-13 movies now have things that you would expect to see in R rated movies. On the other hand, I recently watched the original Clash of the Titans from 1981, it was rated PG yet it had several scenes of nudity that I wouldn't expect to see now in a PG movie. Many rated R movies are well written and acted and are worth seeing. I think the point here is to follow the spirit of the law and only watch movies that you feel are appropriate.

The key sometimes is to educate yourself about the content of a movie before you see it. I know a couple who love comedies, and they would often go to the theater to see the latest comedy and end of being disappointed or walking out because of the crude content, but they didn't bother to do their homework before going. Funny thing is they've done this several times, I guess some people never learn.

[bl8tant]

One problem with the prohibition on R rated movies is that the rating system is very inconsistent. Many PG-13 movies now have things that you would expect to see in R rated movies. On the other hand, I recently watched the original Clash of the Titans from 1981, it was rated PG yet it had several scenes of nudity that I wouldn't expect to see now in a PG movie.

We watched "Sixteen Candles" a few nights ago with our 15-year-old. Whoa! For a PG movie, it sure had a lot of stuff in it that we would have rather him not seen.

My younger kids often badger me to see the latest PG-13 action flick. I patiently explain to them each time that the rating agency has its own criteria that don't necessarily match up with ours, and that the ratings represent a continuum anyway. Just because something is PG-13 doesn't mean it's OK-- it could be just >this< close to getting an R.

[Maureen]

Vanhin, how true.

Even dark chocolate is considered higher in caffeinated count than coffee or tea. I cannot see if we begin with soda, we better add chocolate candy, ice cream, cakes, and so forth.

Not so. For example:

Chocolate bar with Dark Chocolate (42 grams (1.48 ounces)) = 30mg

Brewed Coffee (8 ounces) = 60-120mg

Black Tea (8 ounces) = 45 mg

Green Tea (8 ounces) = 20mg

Coke (12 ounces) = 38mg

Caffeine Content of Coffee, Tea, Chocolate

M.

[Wingnut]

At the time the R rated counsel was first given, there were only G, PG, and R ratings (and probably an X as well, but that's irrelevant). There was no PG-13 rating. That was first used within a year of that counsel. That explains why there are bits of nudity in some PG movies -- it wasn't enough to warrant an R rating, but there was no middle ground.

It's been over 20 years since anything specific has been said about R ratings. Current counsel is more general, and is aligned with the 13th article of faith.