This doesn't make sense to me

[grandpalw]

Cassio, If the spirit can be transmitted through mere words, yours have come as close as I have ever seen. I will accept your prayer for it is given with pure intent. Thank you for understanding.

[Cassiopeia]

Cassio, If the spirit can be transmitted through mere words, yours have come as close as I have ever seen. I will accept your prayer for it is given with pure intent. Thank you for understanding.

Just remember, that you are loved. Loved no matter what you do or decide. You are okay with the Lord. He sees better than any of us that this is what we are here to do. We are here to learn and to know and to feel. Christ knows how important the process you are going through is.

He would never take that from us. You'll be okay. No matter what you decide. Because you are loved.

[mnn727]

Not everything is about being offended and prideful.

I stand by my statement but clairify it for better understanding - Once someone is offended and thats the reason that they left, then its their pride that keeps them from coming back.

Note: I didn't say that everyone that left was offended and prideful.

Becoming ofended is a choice you make, you can chose to be offended or chose to have other reactions to the person/event.

Edited July 16, 2010 by mnn727

[Cassiopeia]

I stand by my statement but clairify it for better understanding - Once someone is offended and thats the reason that they left, then its their pride that keeps them from coming back.

Note: I didn't say that everyone that left was offended and prideful.

Becoming ofended is a choice you make, you can chose to be offended or chose to have other reactions to the person/event.

And I say you can only speak for yourself as you do not understand how things are for other people. And it is a weak and false claim to make that we choose to be offended.

People often do things that are offensive. And yes, if someone leaves the church using the reason that they were offended it is certainly their choice to do so. But they did not choose to be offended in the first place. That smacks of a pop psychology that has been misused by some to remove themselves from being accountable for the things they've done to others out of callousness.

But to paint this picture so black and white is an error.

People actually do come to the conclusion that their experiences were not what they thought or upon deeper reflection feel they don't believe enough of the gospel to remain.

Or, they leave because they didn't have a testimony but rather joined for a different reason.

It is not our place to judge them. Do you know every single person who has left? Can you prove it is their pride that makes them leave or keeps them away?

Le'ts hope others are certainly kinder than you are being when you are being judged for choices you make.

[Snow]

How can a person have a strong testimony and then turn their back on it? It doesn't make sense to me if they absolutely "know" it's true because God told them and then walk away.

It seems to me that if God spoke to you and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the LDS Church and the BOM are true then aren't you accountable for your decision to walk away. Aren't you actually walking away from God?

It's because, no matter what people say, they don't KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt. They are exercising faith and they are or they become CONVINCED. Conviction is different than knowledge. A person can become convinced and can become unconvinced.

[Sean1427]

There are two aspects of conversion. The first is the conversion that comes from the spirit, where witness is born to an individual that the gospel is true. The second conversion, which is just as important as the first, is a social conversion. The latter comes from members of the Church who treat you in such a way that you truly feel that you're at home. If the latter is missing, then individuals who know the Gospel is true might have a very difficult time feeling included. I remember during a mission conference where the president pointed out that most of those who are brought into the Church by the missionaries eventually "fall away." Since then I've heard and seen this repeatedlly. How many times do missionaries work hard to bring someone into the Church, only to see the individuals whom they brought in leave because the fellowship from the members was only temporary? Hence, the tremendous need to remember that home/visiting teaching is missionary work to members and missionary work is home/visiting teaching to non-members. There is no expiration date to fellowshipping and being friend to those around us. Granted, the burden is on each individual to remain "active." However, it's not easy for those who don't feel like they are truly part of the "home" ward and, by extension, the Church. (It's also good to remember that we are all inactive, just in different ways, and to that degree one could say that we have left the Church.) I have friends who are older males who were not successful dating and are therefore still single. (As one who lives and works in the ME I can see where arranged marriages might have worked for these individuals for while they were not very good at dating, they would have made wonderful husbands and fathers.) While they still believe in the Church and the Gospel, they feel extremely awkward attending Church because they say that as a male member who's never been married they feel more like an outcast without much hope. They've told me that while everyone feels sorry for a single woman in the Church and all blame the man, the man is automatically judged as having done something wrong to the point they lose hope and don't feel comfortable attending Church. These are simply examples. Reasons differ for each individual as to why they may not be "active," but the point I'm trying to make is that everyone's conversion consists of two parts, and if one part is missing, then conversion, in terms of Church attendance, may be lacking.

[Sean1427]

After my last post, I read Cassiopeia's response to a post by mnn727 and thought I'd share something that I thought of as I read Cassiopeia's response. I can't give the exact source for the story, and I know I'll be paraphrasing it poorly, but it's a story told by Hugh Nibley about a priesthood holder from another state who was sent to a stake in Arizona or southern Utah many years ago to participate in an excommunication hearing for a man no one in the stake was too fond of. If I remember correctly, the man smoked, used some foul language, and maybe even drank a little. The night before the excommunication hearing was to take place, the man who'd been sent there had a dream. In his dream he found himself in a large assembly room full of people. Everyone was excited about what was to soon happen. The visitor, unaware of even where he was, asked people why everyone was so excited. In reply they informed him that Christ was coming to speak to them in just a few moments. Yet the man noticed that there were two chairs side-by-side on the stage, and when he asked who the second chair was for, no one seemed to know. Soon everyone, almost on cue, took their seats and quieted down and waited in great anticipation for Christ and the other guest speaker to make their entrance. Soon after they'd seated themselves, Christ walked in. But He was definitely not alone, for by his side was the other speaker that day who the man dreaming recognized immediatly as the man the man he'd been called in to possibly help excommunicate the next day. The following day the out-of-state visitor refused to vote for this brother's excommunication.

I remember the story in part because it reminded me of my father who came into the Church later in life. Even as a non-member he was a better man than most members in terms of honesty, integrity, character and service to others. As a non-member, he let my mother pay tithing on his income. He let us, their children, be blessed and baptized. He donated his labor as a stone mason to building the first chapel in our area. And he supported my older brother on his mission. He did these things as a non-member. After he joined, he ever quite understood everything but he stayed active and did whatever he was asked. But when my brother died unexpectedly while working with my father, my father's faith and testimony became weak. He had grown up smoking and was never able to completely break that habit. He didn't smoke much would from time to time when he was stressed. And whenever he did, we had problems at church because other members didn't like to sit near us because of the smoke they could smell on him and us. When my brother died, his smoking became more pronounced. And he often did it just before we went to church. After the funeral, it became more difficult for my father. No one from the leadership helped my father walk through the internal struggles with which he wrestled. When we went to church, it was noticeable people were moving away from us when they smelled the smoke. And when our home teacher asked if the bishop could give my father a call in hopes that it might help my father, the bishop told him that as long as my father smoked, he would never get a call in the ward. My father suffered from Alzheimers for 16 years. During the last 10 years of his life, he rarely went to church, mostly because he was sick. And in those 10 years I can count on one hand the number of members who came by to see him. Four times during 10 year period members came by to administer the sacrament. The fourth time they came by they told us that now that a neighbor, who happened to be a more popular member of the ward, was terminally ill, they'd be coming by to administer the sacrament every week. But the neighbor died a week later, and that was the end of it. I share this to point out something. When my father died, it was a real struggle to decide whether to have his funeral in the ward/chapel. To see my father ignored by the ward for 10 years did not set well with many in my family. We never expected to have them coming every week; we're too independent for that. But we did hope that people would come by once in a while just to let my father and my mother know that they were not forgotten. And the thought of having his funeral in a ward where everyone had forgotten about him was a difficult pill to attempt to swallow. To this day, it's hard for me to want to visit the ward. It's not that I'm judging anyone. I realize people have their own lives and all that entails. But it would be hard for me to visit my parents' ward and remember how everyone simply forgot my parents. This is part of the social conversion I mentioned earlier. And I think it hits on what Cassiopeia mentioned when she said that it's not up to us to judge why someone might not be doing what we think they ought to be doing. Then again, maybe it's all off-topic.

[HoosierGuy]

When I first joined the church, I had a lot of issues. I couldn't go do the things my friends wanted to do, so I drifted away from them. Everyone in the church my age was married and spent their days at home or much younger and didn't have much in common with me.

My family disagreed with me and used vicious barbs.

I was completely alone in trying to stay in the church and there were many times that I thought I couldn't do it. I'm a social animal and I found that I was utterly alone. I tried throwing myself in to service to others(My Bishop's idea). That didn't help. I tried throwing myself in to scripture. That didn't help. I tried praying. That didn't seem to help.

Sounds somewhat like me. One reason I joined the church was that I was looking for friends, not the only reason though. Very few friends to be found in the LDS church.

[Cassiopeia]

After my last post, I read Cassiopeia's response to a post by mnn727 and thought I'd share something that I thought of as I read Cassiopeia's response. I can't give the exact source for the story, and I know I'll be paraphrasing it poorly, but it's a story told by Hugh Nibley about a priesthood holder from another state who was sent to a stake in Arizona or southern Utah many years ago to participate in an excommunication hearing for a man no one in the stake was too fond of. If I remember correctly, the man smoked, used some foul language, and maybe even drank a little. The night before the excommunication hearing was to take place, the man who'd been sent there had a dream. In his dream he found himself in a large assembly room full of people. Everyone was excited about what was to soon happen. The visitor, unaware of even where he was, asked people why everyone was so excited. In reply they informed him that Christ was coming to speak to them in just a few moments. Yet the man noticed that there were two chairs side-by-side on the stage, and when he asked who the second chair was for, no one seemed to know. Soon everyone, almost on cue, took their seats and quieted down and waited in great anticipation for Christ and the other guest speaker to make their entrance. Soon after they'd seated themselves, Christ walked in. But He was definitely not alone, for by his side was the other speaker that day who the man dreaming recognized immediatly as the man the man he'd been called in to possibly help excommunicate the next day. The following day the out-of-state visitor refused to vote for this brother's excommunication.

I remember the story in part because it reminded me of my father who came into the Church later in life. Even as a non-member he was a better man than most members in terms of honesty, integrity, character and service to others. As a non-member, he let my mother pay tithing on his income. He let us, their children, be blessed and baptized. He donated his labor as a stone mason to building the first chapel in our area. And he supported my older brother on his mission. He did these things as a non-member. After he joined, he ever quite understood everything but he stayed active and did whatever he was asked. But when my brother died unexpectedly while working with my father, my father's faith and testimony became weak. He had grown up smoking and was never able to completely break that habit. He didn't smoke much would from time to time when he was stressed. And whenever he did, we had problems at church because other members didn't like to sit near us because of the smoke they could smell on him and us. When my brother died, his smoking became more pronounced. And he often did it just before we went to church. After the funeral, it became more difficult for my father. No one from the leadership helped my father walk through the internal struggles with which he wrestled. When we went to church, it was noticeable people were moving away from us when they smelled the smoke. And when our home teacher asked if the bishop could give my father a call in hopes that it might help my father, the bishop told him that as long as my father smoked, he would never get a call in the ward. My father suffered from Alzheimers for 16 years. During the last 10 years of his life, he rarely went to church, mostly because he was sick. And in those 10 years I can count on one hand the number of members who came by to see him. Four times during 10 year period members came by to administer the sacrament. The fourth time they came by they told us that now that a neighbor, who happened to be a more popular member of the ward, was terminally ill, they'd be coming by to administer the sacrament every week. But the neighbor died a week later, and that was the end of it. I share this to point out something. When my father died, it was a real struggle to decide whether to have his funeral in the ward/chapel. To see my father ignored by the ward for 10 years did not set well with many in my family. We never expected to have them coming every week; we're too independent for that. But we did hope that people would come by once in a while just to let my father and my mother know that they were not forgotten. And the thought of having his funeral in a ward where everyone had forgotten about him was a difficult pill to attempt to swallow. To this day, it's hard for me to want to visit the ward. It's not that I'm judging anyone. I realize people have their own lives and all that entails. But it would be hard for me to visit my parents' ward and remember how everyone simply forgot my parents. This is part of the social conversion I mentioned earlier. And I think it hits on what Cassiopeia mentioned when she said that it's not up to us to judge why someone might not be doing what we think they ought to be doing. Then again, maybe it's all off-topic.

I'm quoting your post in full because it bears repeating.

thank you for sharing such a moving experience and the hugh nibley story. I'd heard it long ago.

If there is anything I can say that might help anyone it is that as Latter-day Saints (I know I'm guilty of it in my past) it is so easy to get caught up in judging others. I know one Bishop who said, the sweetest smell in the world to him was the smell of ciggarette smoke on one of his ward members. When I asked why, he said, "because this is where they belong." NOT that he was advocating smoking but he wanted anyone and everyone to feel welcome at church.

None of us are perfect. And we all falter in our faith one way or another. For some it's quite easy to tell when they do. *sighs* ahh..the sweet smell of a camel cigarrette. But how many of us are hiding behind the wall of obedience?

Our sins may not be as obvious. We are obedient in every way that the Bishop and others can tell. But how many of us harbor the sins of pride and vanity? How many of us harbor hard feelings and ill will towards our loved ones and our neighbors? Are we willing to go the extra mile?

One thing that has always goaded me is when people make a comment like this..."I have the most wonderful neighbor. She isn't LDS but she's awesome."

Why must we make a distinction between people like that? I know I'm probably going a bit off topic, but I want people to understand something. What we think, and feel in our minds and hearts shows on the outside. You may think you aren't offending someone but when you look down on someone because they have a WoW problem or don't attend regularly, you DO approach them differently and it hurts.

I promise you it hurts.

I want you all to know that I might be a bit outspoken on certain topics and in particular about judging others and having attitudes that set us away from the spirit instead of setting us apart from the world but that's because I've had to fight to come back and I fight to stay. I want everyone to feel welcome and to find their way. The church is not an elitist club. All are welcome. All are sinners. All are striving towards making it back to our Father in Heaven.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Cassiopeia

[zenvis]

Unless you actually leave the church or lose your faith, I doubt it will make sense to you. It's a very personal thing and not many are willing to openly discuss leaving the church.

I know when I did for 7 years, I refused to discuss it with anyone. I didn't want to influence them. People should be allowed to have their faith and not have it ripped from them.

I've seen many wonderful and amazing things in my life and I've asked myself how I could just forget them as time went on. Where the still not the truth?

And for me the answer was quite simple. Faith requires work and constant use of it. If you don't, the wonderful miraculous things we have seen and heard and felt, fade like a memory and we question ourselves.

I had help in that. I had a husband who being a return missionary and a very abusive sort of person used to tear away at my testimony and experiences because he had to be in control. He hated it when I told him I couldn't agree to something because I prayed and couldn't feel good about it.

I have had members behave in unthinkable ways and I let it get to me.

The ONLY thing that keeps me tethered is my faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus Crist. Without that, it's just another church with more bladdy blahh blah.

Like I said, it probably won't ever make sense to you and my advice to you is to pray against the day that you might lose heart and faith and wander away. And to remember those who do wander are still your brothers and sisters and they need your love, not your recriminations.

And life is never so simple that either God spoke to you or he didn't. That sort of black and white thinking is fraught with peril. God can speak to you, you can know it and the devil just might use that against you. So be on your guard and remember none of us are safe against falling away. You have to work at it every day of your life.

Cassiopeia,

I completely agree with what you are saying. We do need to constantly be on our best guard and as for your husband, well, he's a.. I wont say. Agency is an individual thing I should know I have a wife that is very similar to you. She is a free spirit and prays to know what is true instead of taking it as gospel from the pulpit. Even my own inspired thoughts led by the spirit have been questioned and she again prayed to know if it was true. I didn't stop her because if it is then she will get the same feeling as I get. If there is a contradiction I look at myself, not her, for the answer. My wife has never been wrong when she followed the spirit and she knows me better then myself sometimes.

When it comes to moments of spiritual weakness I have found comfort that I can talk to her about it. The great thing about my relationship is that she doesn't expect me to be some all powerful priesthood being that is untouchable by the devil. There is times when I have faltered and stumbled in my faith and to see the spirit in me have a human experience and show my weaknesses assures her that I am still progressing. Its about being teachable and child like that helps us recognize that there is more to learn.

I like you have come across Saints that believe quirky things. I am still their friend (or family) but I have had to find confidence in the Lord and flexible people like myself and my wife. Perhaps you have encountered this your self where a Saint has a near panic attack from the personal faltering and it worries them but when they turn to people who are iron in the gospel (and sometimes as inflexible as it) it makes the matter worse. "How dare they have a faith problem" they say and push the troubled person away or hope that the issue goes away.

I am grateful that I have had some real great friends, family and spiritual leaders that show compassion when they have encountered such a worried soul. Times like those, people should not be turned away because their faith is different but brought closer and helped out, not like a mental patient who's crazy but an honestly concerned human being. We do it for our investigators, a.k.a. the Gentiles, why not us, the Saints.

My encouragement to you is keep the faith and remember that the people that inhabit this church are in no wise perfect but the church is true. We may be on the same path in the same direction, sure the obstacles in our path is different but if we endure and press forward we will see the goal. Take care of yourself.

[Cassiopeia]

Cassiopeia,

Perhaps you have encountered this your self where a Saint has a near panic attack from the personal faltering and it worries them but when they turn to people who are iron in the gospel (and sometimes as inflexible as it) it makes the matter worse. "How dare they have a faith problem" they say and push the troubled person away or hope that the issue goes away.

I've had many blessings in my life and have seen such miracles that I've shared with friends in the past. Over the years I have found that when I struggle or falter my friends abandon me. I've even had them get angry with me. When I point out to them how unfair they are being they always say, "but it scares me that you have had such great experiences and such strong faith can falter. What does it mean for me if you doubt?"

I now refuse to tell anyone of my experiences. It's just easier to slip in unnoticed that to be vocal about the great things the Lord has shown me throughout my life so when I falter, people don't judge me for it. It's like they think I should have perfect faith when I've seen so much.

It's not fair.

[Moksha]

It doesn't make sense to me if they absolutely "know" it's true because God told them and then walk away.

Part of this is the misapplication of the word "know" in the first place. They believed something to be true and their beliefs changed. It happens.

As to being offended, this happens too. Elder Bednar had a well known talk about this. His suggestion was not being offended so easily. After hearing this, other similar complaints and even Elgama's dilemma, I suspect that some type of solution-oriented mediation process would be helpful.

[zenvis]

I've had many blessings in my life and have seen such miracles that I've shared with friends in the past. Over the years I have found that when I struggle or falter my friends abandon me. I've even had them get angry with me. When I point out to them how unfair they are being they always say, "but it scares me that you have had such great experiences and such strong faith can falter. What does it mean for me if you doubt?"

I now refuse to tell anyone of my experiences. It's just easier to slip in unnoticed that to be vocal about the great things the Lord has shown me throughout my life so when I falter, people don't judge me for it. It's like they think I should have perfect faith when I've seen so much.

It's not fair.

I don't know what to tell you Cassiopeia. Its true that some times when I am at church I just say nothing because I sense an aura of shallowness and anything that brought out a deeper, richer spiritual experience would just bounce off the wall does come now and then. I suspect that all (ok some) Saints feel that way. I when relate a spiritual experience its usually a small one, something to keep the conversation going.

In my regular job I travel from Nebraska to Washington to Idaho to Arizona, so I see Saints all over the country. Some wards are just celestial suns and others are just stars if you get the reference. I really hope that you meet someone that is willing to know you better and share from your experience.

[Melissa569]

In regards to the OP-- It sounds like the woman you mentioned may have run into someone in the church, or something that recently developed in the church, that she does not think holds true to the original gospel. Of course, I say you just have to ignore that stuff and "keep on truckin" rather than totally turn your back on everything. But some people confuse turning their back one one small aspect, with turning their back on the entire church.

Just because a church was initially influenced by god, doesn't mean it can't later develop imperfections that some followers notice and disagree with. This has happened a million times over throughout history. No system is perfect. Churches depend on the passing down of information from one generation of humans to the next, in order to be held together and kept alive. There have been many attempts to start a religion that held perfectly to the exact word of god-- but again, and again, they have failed. Anything can fail, its up to *us* as individuals (and a team) to pick it back up and keep it moving straight forward.

Humans are not perfect. And as long as we have free will, nothing we say or do is going to be perfect either. Even if its preaching.

Yes, you can take in the wisdom of current living profits and church leaders (carefully filtering their words to separate what your heart tells you is devine mandate, from what may only be personal opinion-- I don't care who it is, you should never blindly follow anyone). But remember that they are still humans, with just as much free will over their words and actions as you have.

Nothing is forcing them to speak ONLY the untainted word of god without their own personal influence behind any of it. A high position in the church does not take away your free will.

No matter who you are, or what religion you are part of, there will always come a time when you cannot take someone else's word, and you will have to rely on your own judgement to decide what is true, or what is false-- to keep you on the right track.

Again, the woman you mentioned should have stayed with the church though, because one wrong / offensive person or idea doesn't make the mission of the entire church wrong as a whole.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Melissa569

[pam]

Yes, you can take in the wisdom of current living profits and church leaders

I think you mean prophets

[JohnnyRudick]

I think you mean prophets

I don't know:rolleyes:

I have talked to many in and outside (mostly outside:mellow:"

who truly do mean "profits":p

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[FunkyTown]

Sounds somewhat like me. One reason I joined the church was that I was looking for friends, not the only reason though. Very few friends to be found in the LDS church.

Hmm... That may be why I stayed active. I wasn't looking for friends when I joined the church. Instead, I had friends that drifted away because of the church.

Because I only joined because I believed it, it was difficult to wander away.

Hmm... Tricky. What would have kept you active?

[grandpalw]

The original question was "How can a person have a strong testimony and then turn their back on it?"

This question presents a conundrum for this site. It would be best answered by someone who has experienced the question asked. Yet most, myself included, would be reticent to share their feelings for several reasons. One of those could be that their knowledge or reasons stated could be viewed as anti mormon, even if this were not at all the intention.

I am not referring to most of the situations being discussed in this thread as I have seen too many people use the excuse that they were offended. And while yes people can be offensive, especially in our Church, we should be in the Church because we believe the teachings are true above all else. Also I know that people can become inactive and still live most if not all of the Gospel principles with the exception of attanding Church every Sunday.

But, what if I start to question one of the Churches teachings. I will not go any further than this as it is not my desire in the least to be the cause of anyone to question the Church. But I do wish I could discuss it so as to resolve my feelings.

But what if after much reading, research, and study, I cannot truly answer that I believe every single thing that the Church teaches. Does that make me no longer a mormon. Does that mean "I have lost my testimony" even though I believe in all the principles and precepts of the Gospel.

If I "come clean" with my leaders, I may risk losing temple recommend, priesthood, membership. And to be quite honest, I want my family to stay active. I want to stay active. I want to see the rest of my children married in the Temple. Let me make this clear, I am not refering to any sinful action or deed on my part whatsoever. I am in an untenable position as I can't state my issue, and as I reread my own explanation I realize I am not making much sense.

How about if I use an actual event to descibe a hypothetical that is a close analogy. The Mountain Meadows massacre, what if one were to believe that a prophet did direct that action, and I am not saying I do or that one did, but what if. And what if this action was claimed to be prophetic (it wasn't and I am not implying it was, this is just a hypothetical) and one could just not believe that a prophet would do that. Similar in that some people have a hard time in the thought that Nephi was commanded by God to kill in order to obtian the plates. My personal belief struggle is on a similar plane.

So perhaps this question would be best asked with more specifics attached. One can have a testimony about many things, and therefore lose, or possibly never have a testinony about many subjects.

[Cassiopeia]

The original question was "How can a person have a strong testimony and then turn their back on it?"

This question presents a conundrum for this site. It would be best answered by someone who has experienced the question asked. Yet most, myself included, would be reticent to share their feelings for several reasons. One of those could be that their knowledge or reasons stated could be viewed as anti mormon, even if this were not at all the intention.

I am not referring to most of the situations being discussed in this thread as I have seen too many people use the excuse that they were offended. And while yes people can be offensive, especially in our Church, we should be in the Church because we believe the teachings are true above all else. Also I know that people can become inactive and still live most if not all of the Gospel principles with the exception of attanding Church every Sunday.

But, what if I start to question one of the Churches teachings. I will not go any further than this as it is not my desire in the least to be the cause of anyone to question the Church. But I do wish I could discuss it so as to resolve my feelings.

But what if after much reading, research, and study, I cannot truly answer that I believe every single thing that the Church teaches. Does that make me no longer a mormon. Does that mean "I have lost my testimony" even though I believe in all the principles and precepts of the Gospel.

If I "come clean" with my leaders, I may risk losing temple recommend, priesthood, membership. And to be quite honest, I want my family to stay active. I want to stay active. I want to see the rest of my children married in the Temple. Let me make this clear, I am not refering to any sinful action or deed on my part whatsoever. I am in an untenable position as I can't state my issue, and as I reread my own explanation I realize I am not making much sense.

How about if I use an actual event to descibe a hypothetical that is a close analogy. The Mountain Meadows massacre, what if one were to believe that a prophet did direct that action, and I am not saying I do or that one did, but what if. And what if this action was claimed to be prophetic (it wasn't and I am not implying it was, this is just a hypothetical) and one could just not believe that a prophet would do that. Similar in that some people have a hard time in the thought that Nephi was commanded by God to kill in order to obtian the plates. My personal belief struggle is on a similar plane.

So perhaps this question would be best asked with more specifics attached. One can have a testimony about many things, and therefore lose, or possibly never have a testinony about many subjects.

Like everything about us, faith is a progressive trait. We grow in strength and faith. It's not an easy thing. I do not believe that you have to understand every single thing about the church or have a testimony of all of it. I think what matters is that you are so faith in your obedience. Sometimes answers come as we get older.

There are times in our lives when we are tried so much that we do lose faith. However, to me, your attendance and remaining obedient is what matters. I don't think it is required that we have a perfect faith in everything thing perfectly.

I admire you for your diligence in wanting to be active and for your family to be active as a result of your obedience.

[ryanh]

Prophetic Priorities - Hinckley, Richard G.

May 15, 2007 BYU Devotional:

I will repeat the essence of what told the students at Ricks college in a talk gave there six and a half years ago.

Some of you struggle with certain doctrines or practices of the church, past or present; they just don’t quite seem to fit for you. I say, so what? That’s okay. You’re still young. Be patient, but be persistent. Keep studying them, thinking about them, and praying about them. Everyone has questions. I suppose even the prophets themselves had and have some questions. But don’t throw away the jewels you do have in the meantime. Hold on to them; build on them.

Did you know that the two greatest intelectual achievements of the first half of the last century, the general theory of relativity and quantum mechanics, are in some points in conflict with each other? They cannot both be right in every detail. These are not my words but the words of Stephen Hawking, the great British physicist. Yet scientists rely on both of these theories every day to advance scientific knowedge, knowing that someday the differences will be understood, reconciled, and corrected.

So it is with the gospel and our testimonies, yours and mine. This is not to suggest that the gospel is imperfect, but our understanding of it sometimes is. Like the scientist who uses relativity and quantum mechanics, we do not discard the gospel or our testimony because not every piece “fits” today. Years ago a Church leader used the following metaphor: have you ever watched a stonemason build a rock wall? He will sometimes pick up a rock that just does not fit anywhere in the niches in the wall. But does he abandon the wall and walk away? No, he simply sets the rock aside and keeps build¬ing until a niche appears where it fits and then proceeds until the wall is finished. So perhaps should we temporarily set aside questions that we continue to struggle with and that we can¬not quite seem to answer today, having faith that at sometime in the future a niche will appear in the rock wall of our testimony where they fit perfectly. Don’t abandon the rock wall of your testimony because one or two rocks don’t seem to fit. That has been my personal experience.

[Cassiopeia]

ryanh,

AWESOME post. Thank you. It illustrates so eloquently what I failed to.