This doesn't make sense to me

[yorkiebeebs]

How can a person have a strong testimony and then turn their back on it? It doesn't make sense to me if they absolutely "know" it's true because God told them and then walk away.

It seems to me that if God spoke to you and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the LDS Church and the BOM are true then aren't you accountable for your decision to walk away. Aren't you actually walking away from God?

Recently, on a non religious forum, a LDS person told me privately that she has a strong testimony that the LDS Church is true. The next thing I know she is posting publiclly that she is leaving the LDS Church because she was offended by something. That just doesn't line up in my mind.

God either spoke to you or he didn't.

[Hemidakota]

It starts with a hard heart, which leads to spiritual memory lost over time. It is snowball affect that keeps rolling unless humilty strikes.

[Hemidakota]

Recently, on a non religious forum, a LDS person told me privately that she has a strong testimony that the LDS Church is true. The next thing I know she is posting publiclly that she is leaving the LDS Church because she was offended by something. That just doesn't line up in my mind.

God either spoke to you or he didn't.

Don't worry, if this is the case, she will be back...

[FunkyTown]

Having a belief - Even a firm belief - Is not always enough. We're human and have human frailties and weaknesses.

When I first joined the church, I had a lot of issues. I couldn't go do the things my friends wanted to do, so I drifted away from them. Everyone in the church my age was married and spent their days at home or much younger and didn't have much in common with me.

My family disagreed with me and used vicious barbs.

I was completely alone in trying to stay in the church and there were many times that I thought I couldn't do it. I'm a social animal and I found that I was utterly alone. I tried throwing myself in to service to others(My Bishop's idea). That didn't help. I tried throwing myself in to scripture. That didn't help. I tried praying. That didn't seem to help.

I was at the point that I was saying, 'God - I know this is true, but I don't know if I have the strength to do what you need me to.'

After 2 years without close friends, I hit a wall spiritually. I kept at it, but to this day I have no idea how. And I wasn't alone. Of the 4 men who joined the church at my age in my ward, I am the only one still active.

Everybody has different breaking points. Instead, I have a 'But for the grace of God' attitude towards it. You have to understand why someone thinks the way they think. Instead of saying that you don't understand, try to understand. Put yourself in their shoes. You can't excuse the decision to leave what you know is true, but until you understand why they made that decision, you can't help.

And you need to help. Satan knows our weaknesses and he uses them to drive us away from what we know is true.

How can a person have a strong testimony and then turn their back on it? It doesn't make sense to me if they absolutely "know" it's true because God told them and then walk away.

It seems to me that if God spoke to you and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the LDS Church and the BOM are true then aren't you accountable for your decision to walk away. Aren't you actually walking away from God?

Recently, on a non religious forum, a LDS person told me privately that she has a strong testimony that the LDS Church is true. The next thing I know she is posting publiclly that she is leaving the LDS Church because she was offended by something. That just doesn't line up in my mind.

God either spoke to you or he didn't.

[Blackmarch]

How can a person have a strong testimony and then turn their back on it? It doesn't make sense to me if they absolutely "know" it's true because God told them and then walk away.

It seems to me that if God spoke to you and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the LDS Church and the BOM are true then aren't you accountable for your decision to walk away. Aren't you actually walking away from God?

Recently, on a non religious forum, a LDS person told me privately that she has a strong testimony that the LDS Church is true. The next thing I know she is posting publiclly that she is leaving the LDS Church because she was offended by something. That just doesn't line up in my mind.

God either spoke to you or he didn't.

I don't know what causes such, and I don't really want first hand experience... but it seems that greater the height that someone attains the greater the fall, should they fall.

[Elgama]

In my case I am inactive because I know my children are unsafe at church, No I am not walking away from God because I did it as a result of a blessing he gave me, and it turned out the wisdom of not attending another unit was also correct. Hopefully in time we will be able to return to church

[ryanh]

The reasons people may fall away after the Gospel is given to them is varied. A testimony is a living thing - well comparable to a plant. It can be killed if water, sun, and nourishment are withheld, or neglected.

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon astony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Matthew Chapter 13

See: Of Seeds and Soils for more discussion.

[Traveler]

How can a person have a strong testimony and then turn their back on it? It doesn't make sense to me if they absolutely "know" it's true because God told them and then walk away.

It seems to me that if God spoke to you and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the LDS Church and the BOM are true then aren't you accountable for your decision to walk away. Aren't you actually walking away from God?

Recently, on a non religious forum, a LDS person told me privately that she has a strong testimony that the LDS Church is true. The next thing I know she is posting publiclly that she is leaving the LDS Church because she was offended by something. That just doesn't line up in my mind.

God either spoke to you or he didn't.

The spirit has a lot to do with a person’s knowledge and feelings concerning the saints and the Kingdom of G-d as it has been established by covenant in these last days. I have known several that have parted from the saints for a variety of reasons. Some have returned.

I have observed something rather interesting. As the spirit leaves a person departing from the saints they will say that the doctrine really does not make sense and that there are a number of principles that they were never able to accept. Often they will express doubts about G-d and Jesus. When a person returns they will then say that they never really lost their testimony and that even while they were gone they still believed all the doctrine. This paradox has puzzled me but then I have come to realize the effects of the spirit.

When the spirit is with a person it seems to them that they have always believed the simple truths of the gospel. When the spirit has departed from a person it likewise seems to them that the same simple truths have never really made sense.

There is a tendency to minimize the influences the Holy Spirit has as well as the influence unholy spirits have. I am convinced that our thought and action are inseparable from the spirits that influence them.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

The reasons people may fall away after the Gospel is given to them is varied. A testimony is a living thing - well comparable to a plant. It can be killed if water, sun, and nourishment are withheld, or neglected.

See: Of Seeds and Soils for more discussion.

Actually in her case, she is still built on the rock. Just beaten down and flooded for now.

[hordak]

The reasons people may fall away after the Gospel is given to them is varied. A testimony is a living thing - well comparable to a plant. It can be killed if water, sun, and nourishment are withheld, or neglected.

I would add to this not everyone who says "I know the church is true" necessarily has a testimony.There are many who didn't actually investigate the church but were simply raised in it.. I spent a large part of my youth as a good example of a "strong faithful member" with a "great testimony". Yet it didn't exist.

converts are what are known as "first generationers". That means, you don't have generations of parents / aunts / uncles / cousins / friends. You go in as a pioneer - you go into it alone.

This is why it is better for first generationers. I think it's more likely that they have put the church to the test, not that the born in churchers don't, but a convert "has to" investigate, while others can go on cruse control for years or even decades.

The important thing to note is that a testimony is not a measurable thing. It is easy to say, so- and so left so they must be offended, or want to sin but the fact is we don't know, it is above our pay grade.

Personally i think many who leave don't/didn't have a testimony. From my own personal experiences i left the church in my late teens, and took on some bad habits. From an outside perspective it was easy for people to think,

The church is against smoking drinking etc., hordak smokes and drinks, Therfor he must have left because he wanted to sin. (In fact some did) But they were wrong.

I would never risk eternal life for something so trivial. If i had had a testimony then i wouldn't have had done that stuff. The fact is i didn't have one, i didn't leave church to sin, i left church because i didn't believe, since i didn't believe there was no reason to follow the churches rules. It's like seeing a Jew, or Muslim leave their faith and concluding they did it for the Bacon and pork chop.

So in conclusion why would a person with a "strong testimony" leave the church. We don't know. It is between them and God.

[Dravin]

It seems to me that if God spoke to you and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the LDS Church and the BOM are true then aren't you accountable for your decision to walk away.

While many people like to claim they know beyond a shadow of a doubt I imagine for most people (myself included) this is not true. I have doubts, they aren't big ones, they aren't persistent ones but occasionally the thought crosses my mind concerning the truthfulness of this gospel. I then usually rely on the experiences surrounded when I did know this Church was true. But I don't know know like say I know I had a bowl of Trix for breakfast, I have faith that the experiences I had were not, as Korihor put it, "... the effect of a frenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so.

People are certainly held accountable to the amount of light and knowledge they receive:

23 And now behold I say unto you, that if this people, who have received so many blessings from the hand of the Lord, should transgress contrary to the light and knowledge which they do have, I say unto you that if this be the case, that if they should fall into transgression, it would be far more tolerable for the Lamanites than for them.

Of course God, not I, is the proper judge of just how much light and knowledge they have received. As pointed out previously in the thread, many people who you might assume have received a rather significant amount of light and knowledge (note it's received, not been exposed to else all those doors I tracted into on my mission are in trouble) haven't actually done so.

God either spoke to you or he didn't.

That's the crux of the issue isn't it? People are great at rationalizing, whether it be taking a warm fuzzy feeling they got at the temple/reading their scriptures/random day dreaming when their girlfriend popped into there head as a sign from God they are commanded to marry that person or someone who has received a witness discounting it as emotional gymnastics, or if you prefer the effects of a frenzied mind.

One final thought, Christ said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." I think the reverse applies, when we stop doing God's will it becomes easier and easier to lose that knowledge that Christ (or his modern representatives in the Church or even the revelation we've received) isn't speaking of themselves. People are really, really good at putting their will above God's and rationalizing, just consider the example of Balaam in the OT.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Dravin

[pam]

How could Laman and Lemuel see angels and then still murmur against Lehi and Nephi? I've never understood that as well. But it's the same concept.

[zenvis]

How can a person have a strong testimony and then turn their back on it? It doesn't make sense to me if they absolutely "know" it's true because God told them and then walk away.

It seems to me that if God spoke to you and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the LDS Church and the BOM are true then aren't you accountable for your decision to walk away. Aren't you actually walking away from God?

Recently, on a non religious forum, a LDS person told me privately that she has a strong testimony that the LDS Church is true. The next thing I know she is posting publiclly that she is leaving the LDS Church because she was offended by something. That just doesn't line up in my mind.

God either spoke to you or he didn't.

I believe that sometimes people create this belief that truth is relevant and only facts hold some consistency. Each person at some time in their life has wavering in their faith and its because their faith is growing and/or changing. When it comes to those with strong testimonies, I compare it it to Mount Rushmore, those that have a strong faith are those who are closest to god or the top. Without a good group of friends and family supporting you in your testimony you can fall and the higher you are (or more truth you have) the harder the fall.

A good example was the death of my brother that tore my parents marriage apart because communication collapsed between the two. They were both hurt but they failed to turn to each other for strength, because of their failure a divorce occurred and my father left the church. He honestly believed that the blessings and fasting was going to heal his son and my mother refused to get counseling and talk about their loss.

My point was when life got tough and asked them to stretch their faith from new experiences they fell from the top. It happens to Saints. Its our responsibility to get up when that happens. We do not just dwell in the belly of the whale because our faith failed us we get out and try again.

[Cassiopeia]

Unless you actually leave the church or lose your faith, I doubt it will make sense to you. It's a very personal thing and not many are willing to openly discuss leaving the church.

I know when I did for 7 years, I refused to discuss it with anyone. I didn't want to influence them. People should be allowed to have their faith and not have it ripped from them.

I've seen many wonderful and amazing things in my life and I've asked myself how I could just forget them as time went on. Where the still not the truth?

And for me the answer was quite simple. Faith requires work and constant use of it. If you don't, the wonderful miraculous things we have seen and heard and felt, fade like a memory and we question ourselves.

I had help in that. I had a husband who being a return missionary and a very abusive sort of person used to tear away at my testimony and experiences because he had to be in control. He hated it when I told him I couldn't agree to something because I prayed and couldn't feel good about it.

I have had members behave in unthinkable ways and I let it get to me.

The ONLY thing that keeps me tethered is my faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus Crist. Without that, it's just another church with more bladdy blahh blah.

Like I said, it probably won't ever make sense to you and my advice to you is to pray against the day that you might lose heart and faith and wander away. And to remember those who do wander are still your brothers and sisters and they need your love, not your recriminations.

And life is never so simple that either God spoke to you or he didn't. That sort of black and white thinking is frought with peril. God can speak to you, you can know it and the devil just might use that against you. So be on your guard and remember none of us are safe against falling away. You have to work at it every day of your life.

[Hemidakota]

I do believe our personal testimony is the anchor for the gospel and activity in the church.

[Elgama]

And sometimes its ripped from us, although we will always be accountable for our own actions, I feel its important that as members of the church we do our best not to take the church from others.

[Justinator1]

It is far more important, and in the end effective, to have a testimony of the Divinity of Christ then it is to have a testimony of the church. If you truly have faith in Christ and His Atonement, the rest will come.

[mnn727]

How can a person have a strong testimony and then turn their back on it? It doesn't make sense to me if they absolutely "know" it's true because God told them and then walk away.

Testimonies can fade if you don't keep feeding them.

All 3 of the Witnesses turned away despite having seen the plates and Moroni.

Many people get offended and their pride won't let them get past it.

[Cassiopeia]

And sometimes its ripped from us, although we will always be accountable for our own actions, I feel its important that as members of the church we do our best not to take the church from others.

I completely agree with you. People tend to think that if we were strong enough nothing can lead us away and certainly not others actions. This is an excuse careless people make because they don't want to be accountable for not paying attention to how they treat others.

It is far more important, and in the end effective, to have a testimony of the Divinity of Christ then it is to have a testimony of the church. If you truly have faith in Christ and His Atonement, the rest will come.

Even your faith in Christ can be rendered when you meet with enough opposition and don't have the support system you need. We were placed here with each other for a reason.

Testimonies can fade if you don't keep feeding them.

All 3 of the Witnesses turned away despite having seen the plates and Moroni.

Many people get offended and their pride won't let them get past it.

Not everything is about being offended and prideful.

Sometimes it's about being so crushed so hurt and losing heart and faith. It isn't our pride that always keeps us from activity.

Look deeper than primary and sunday school answers.

[Elgama]

I completely agree with you. People tend to think that if we were strong enough nothing can lead us away and certainly not others actions. This is an excuse careless people make because they don't want to be accountable for not paying attention to how they treat others.

Even your faith in Christ can be rendered when you meet with enough opposition and don't have the support system you need. We were placed here with each other for a reason.

Not everything is about being offended and prideful.

Sometimes it's about being so crushed so hurt and losing heart and faith. It isn't our pride that always keeps us from activity.

Look deeper than primary and sunday school answers.

I agree my own situation right now is not one I expected to be in I had put up with years of nastiness. But its different when your children are affected you are called to protect them

[Cassiopeia]

I agree my own situation right now is not one I expected to be in I had put up with years of nastiness. But its different when your children are affected you are called to protect them

Absolutely.

[MichaelCraig]

Please forgive me for asking something so obvious to most folks and for unintentionally going a little off discussion, but, it seems by the way many here speak about testimony it's meaning is closest to the last one in my Webster: "A public profession of religious experience". My question is for a general definition for "testimony". Please forgive me if this is something that I should start a new thread for. If I should please advise and I will. I am honestly wishing to know because it doesn't seem to mean the exact same thing it does for non-LDS folks. Thank you and again I'm sorry if asking on this thread is not appropriate. :)

[Dravin]

Most LDS in my experience use the phrase 'bear testimony' or 'share testimony' when they talk about a public (or private for that matter) profession of religious experience. Otherwise when speaking of testimony they generally are talking about the religious/spiritual experiences they have had (singular or plural) that confirmed the truthfulness of something to them. So one can receive a testimony (had a spiritual experience that confirms it) of the Book of Mormon and the Church in general or of a specific doctrine, such as having a testimony of Tithing.

My experience isn't extensive but I don't see LDS folks using the word much if any differently than other folks like we do with some words. The only difference, and it may not be a difference at all, is we use having a testimony as a shorthand for knowing/believing that something is true, but I've seen non-LDS Christians use it in the same way. They talk of having a testimony of Christ meaning they know he is the Christ and that they've had spiritual experiences confirming it. They also use the same phraseology of bearing witness/testimony (though I think they lean towards witness) of this to others.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Dravin

[grandpalw]

The original question was "How can a person have a strong testimony and then turn their back on it?"

This is a rather timely question, because I have been a member for over 40 yrs, and some thing have come to light recently that have made me start to question my testimony, or more appropriately, my personal belief in some of the teachings. Does this make me a bad person? Have I 'sinned' and lost the spirit. No, at least I don't tink so.

My point is it can happen and I am afraid it is happening. I don't feel I can talk to anyone here about this, as I feel they will jump to all kinds of different conclusions. Having served in a bishopric, I have witnessed first hand what happens to people who "lose their testimonies". I don't have any desire to be made into a special project by all the quorums or auxilliaries. I still attend services every Sunday and attend my qourum meetings. But I have to be honest, I feel like I am just going through the motions. And at this point I haven't shared this with my family, mostly because I place great value on the blessings that come from living gospel principles. And I am not sure that I am at the point where one would say I've "turned my back on it" but I am turning sideways to it.

I can already foretell many of the responses I will get. 'I'll pray for you' ,'You need to look really deep to determine what you have done wrong', 'Go see your bishop','Have you been to the Temple',"do you pay tithe' etc.etc.... Lets just let it suffice to say that I do all that is asked and more. ANd have for 40 plus years.

I guess in response to the original question is it happens, and I am not sure why.

[Cassiopeia]

The original question was "How can a person have a strong testimony and then turn their back on it?"

This is a rather timely question, because I have been a member for over 40 yrs, and some thing have come to light recently that have made me start to question my testimony, or more appropriately, my personal belief in some of the teachings. Does this make me a bad person? Have I 'sinned' and lost the spirit. No, at least I don't tink so.

My point is it can happen and I am afraid it is happening. I don't feel I can talk to anyone here about this, as I feel they will jump to all kinds of different conclusions. Having served in a bishopric, I have witnessed first hand what happens to people who "lose their testimonies". I don't have any desire to be made into a special project by all the quorums or auxilliaries. I still attend services every Sunday and attend my qourum meetings. But I have to be honest, I feel like I am just going through the motions. And at this point I haven't shared this with my family, mostly because I place great value on the blessings that come from living gospel principles. And I am not sure that I am at the point where one would say I've "turned my back on it" but I am turning sideways to it.

I can already foretell many of the responses I will get. 'I'll pray for you' ,'You need to look really deep to determine what you have done wrong', 'Go see your bishop','Have you been to the Temple',"do you pay tithe' etc.etc.... Lets just let it suffice to say that I do all that is asked and more. ANd have for 40 plus years.

I guess in response to the original question is it happens, and I am not sure why.

Let me be the first to congratulate you on your pursuit to better understand what you really do believe.

And going through the motions is not a bad thing. Keeping a routine while you explore your thoughts and your heart is awesome. It will help take some of the fear and pressure off of you.

You haven't done anything wrong. Questioning what we know is a life time pursuit. I often worry about the person who never comes face to face with their actual testimony and belief. It is through this visiting and revisiting of gospel doctrine and issues that we deepen our understand of what we actually do believe and feel.

Our Father in Heaven does not want blind obedience. If you'd like me to pray for you, it will be that you will be at peace and calm in your heart as you explore the answers to your questions and feelings so whatever choice you make will not be made out of fear or haste.

You take your time. You've got my support. I'm sure you have Christ's support as well.