Surprising quote in the Ensign about long hair.

[Wingnut]

I think you should care, personally, because you are a member missionary, and an example to the world.

As a member missionary, I would like to make sure that my non-member friends don't think that Mormons are a bunch of conformist sticks in the mud.

[NeuroTypical]

Such discussions seem to me, to be all about what you must do in order to be accepted by a certain culture or group. I speak from personal experience, that there's more to being LDS than being accepted by a bunch of Mormons. I might even go so far as to say, I consider it possible to be a good Mormon (i.e. doing everything God wants of you) even if a big stack of Mormons do NOT accept you.

I don't get to judge whether someone else is a good Mormon or not. And neither do any of you. I just get to judge myself. We don't get to judge this guy:

(Yes, those are all the LDS prophets, and Jesus, and a tatoo of him as well.)

[Tarnished]

It's not that members are judging each other, it is that everyone in our communities watch Mormons and judge our appearances and our actions. The world is not fair and nonjudgemental. The world makes split second judgments based on our appearances. If our appearance is going to close the door to someone hearing about the gospel, then it is not worth it, is it?

And if our judgments on other people's appearance is going to close the door to someone hearing about the gospel then it is not worth it, is it?

I recently read an online comic which though beautifully drawn was very offensive to me, it was offensive because it featured Utah Mormons at their worst level of fanaticism. They gossiped about people constantly about why this woman worked and sent her daughter to day care, about the way certain people dressed or the things certain people ate, or drank. The main character was an ex-member and she hated the members for the judgmental way that they looked at everyone around them. This offended me because I for a fact know that not every member out there is judgmental, that not every member is going to speak badly about some woman who has to work and send her child to daycare. I know that not every member is going to make such a big deal about someone's appearance that they drive that person from the church. But there are enough out there that do act this way, that fit the fanatical Mormon mold. And it does not make them more righteous. When you drive someone from the gospel because you think you know how they should best live then you are going against the principles of the gospel instead of living them.

Jesus said love everyone, no matter what they look like, no matter how they act, no matter how they choose to live their life. Love them and support them and don't judge them for who they are.

[justaname]

Such discussions seem to me, to be all about what you must do in order to be accepted by a certain culture or group. I speak from personal experience, that there's more to being LDS than being accepted by a bunch of Mormons. I might even go so far as to say, I consider it possible to be a good Mormon (i.e. doing everything God wants of you) even if a big stack of Mormons do NOT accept you.

I don't get to judge whether someone else is a good Mormon or not. And neither do any of you. I just get to judge myself. We don't get to judge this guy:

(Yes, those are all the LDS prophets, and Jesus, and a tatoo of him as well.)

Where did you get this picture? Do you know this guy? I think I do. I met a guy on my mission that had the same tats on his back. He also has the 1st principles and ordinances of the gospel on his fingers and Adam-Ondi-Ahman (sp?) on his shoulder. He drove a VW bug that has mountains of church literature in the back seat. Interesting dude.

[justaname]

Just a personal experience. . .

I was called into the EQ presidency a while back while having a fairly long goatee. The SP member who extended the call asked me if I would shave it off. I told him Id think about it and ask my wife. (She likes it on me). Asking why I was hesitating about doing it, I told him that I felt it had no bearing on my ability to perform the calling and didnt prevent the EQ from submitting my name. He told me to go home and fast and pray about it. I did, and I spoke with my wife about it. I decided to trim it down, using a #1 clipper guard. When I showed up for church that day, the SP was there to set us all apart. When it was my turn, the SP member who extended the call leaned down to ask my full name, and said, "You look great, thanks for accepting the call. I know you will do great." I have since served in other callings where the clean shaven look is preferred, but I have kept my goatee, though I keep it closely trimmed and always maintained. No one has said anything since.

[Suzie]

For me, the best quote EVER of Hugh Nibley:

"The worst sinners, according to Jesus, are not the harlots and publicans, but the religious leaders with their insistence on proper dress and grooming, their careful observance of all the rules, their precious concern for status-symbols, their strict legality, their pious patriotism. Longhairs, beards, and necklaces, LSD and and rock, Big Sur and Woodstock, come and go, but Babylon is always there: rich, respectable, immovable.... We want to be vindicated in our position and to know that the world is on our side as we all join in a chorus of righteous denunciation; the haircut becomes the test of virtue in a world where Satan deceives and rules by appearances."

Nibley, "What is Zion?," in What Is Zion? Joseph Smith Lecture Series, 1972-73 (Provo, UT; Brigham Young University Press, 1973)

[crazypotato]

And if our judgments on other people's appearance is going to close the door to someone hearing about the gospel then it is not worth it, is it?

I recently read an online comic which though beautifully drawn was very offensive to me, it was offensive because it featured Utah Mormons at their worst level of fanaticism. They gossiped about people constantly about why this woman worked and sent her daughter to day care, about the way certain people dressed or the things certain people ate, or drank. The main character was an ex-member and she hated the members for the judgmental way that they looked at everyone around them. This offended me because I for a fact know that not every member out there is judgmental, that not every member is going to speak badly about some woman who has to work and send her child to daycare. I know that not every member is going to make such a big deal about someone's appearance that they drive that person from the church. But there are enough out there that do act this way, that fit the fanatical Mormon mold. And it does not make them more righteous. When you drive someone from the gospel because you think you know how they should best live then you are going against the principles of the gospel instead of living them.

Jesus said love everyone, no matter what they look like, no matter how they act, no matter how they choose to live their life. Love them and support them and don't judge them for who they are.

,

Ugh.

Are you seriously implying that my opinion is fanatical? I assume your little blurb was directed towards me since there is my quote from the top and your assumption that I gossip and judge other ward members is rather judgemental and self-righteous, too, if that is your assumption. Hopefully you are not lumping me in with that group and that I am misinterpreting you.

[NeuroTypical]

Jesus said [...] Love them and support them and don't judge them for who they are.

Love them, yes. Support and don't judge? Well, the matter isn't that cut and dried. We are explicitly commanded in scripture to judge in certain circumstances, and not judge in others. It's important to know when a righteous judgement is necessary.

As far as this thread goes, "He's not righteous because he has a beard" is pretty much never a righteous judgement.

LM

[Tarnished]

,

Ugh.

Are you seriously implying that my opinion is fanatical? I assume your little blurb was directed towards me since there is my quote from the top and your assumption that I gossip and judge other ward members is rather judgemental and self-righteous, too, if that is your assumption. Hopefully you are not lumping me in with that group and that I am misinterpreting you.

I am very careful when I word responses to you, and no I am not calling you anything. What I am saying is that there is a tendency among Utah Mormons to have fanatics. To tell the truth, though I don't agree with the way you portray many of your opinions I do find that we tend to agree when it comes down to brass tacks. Please understand that when I make my comments I am not insinuating anything about any of the other posters. I truthfully don't care how you choose to believe the gospel or how you live your life. It is your choice and it is your right to make that choice. What I do care about though is when certain opinions in the church cause grief to members who are doing the best that they can, but are not fitting into the ideal mold.

[Tarnished]

Love them, yes. Support and don't judge? Well, the matter isn't that cut and dried. We are explicitly commanded in scripture to judge in certain circumstances, and not judge in others. It's important to know when a righteous judgement is necessary.

As far as this thread goes, "He's not righteous because he has a beard" is pretty much never a righteous judgement.

LM

I agree with you here, and when I say support I don't mean, "Oh that is a wonderful choice you have made!" I mean rather help them in the gospel, support them in a belief of Christ. And when I say judge I mean, don't judge them on their appearence or on how they choose to live their life, do judge circumstances though and don't let someone take you someplace you don't feel comfortable. There is proper judgement at proper times.

[justaname]

Tarnished, you need to post something. Anything. Say hello, goodbye, share a joke, bear your testimony, or pretend you just won an Oscar. You have an unlucky # of posts. =)

[NeuroTypical]

And when I say judge I mean, don't judge them on their appearence or on how they choose to live their life, do judge circumstances though and don't let someone take you someplace you don't feel comfortable. There is proper judgement at proper times.

I think I know what you mean. My wife works with troubled youth. A lot of drug addictions, horrible lifestyles, and the like. She is occasionally able to work miracles with some of them. I think it has much to do with the fact that she isn't looking down at them from some righteous pedestal. She truly cares about and loves them.

She once got an ok from our Bishop, to buy cigarettes for one of them as he was trying to get his body off of it's addiction to meth. According to this kid, most of the "good people" in his life didn't want him around, avoided eye contact with him, assumed he was 'up to no good' whether he actually was or not, and in general, shunned him and treated him like an outcast. Now that's certainly understandable, especially from some of the parents of daughters that this guy enjoyed hanging around with. To say he was living a lifestyle contrary to the desires of God, would be quite an understatement. But a lot of people struggle with how to love people at the same time you see him as a danger to you and yours. We need to learn how to do that. Because kids like him are a dime a dozen, and they are all our neighbors, just as much as all the people we know and love and like to be around.

LM

[crazypotato]

I think the best solution to the long hair/beard/dress code or whatever issue is how JustaName and Margin of Error described. If you feel a rule is a bit outdated or unrealistic, rather than assuming that the people behind the rules are being too judgmental or self-righteous, how about having a respectful conversation with them explaining that according to modern society, you do not look like a hippie from the 60s?

If you don't want to just follow the rule, then don't, but do it respectfully without making a big stink about it. The people making the rules are often just older and still may associate long hair with 60s free love druggie hippies.

[Suzie]

Well, the "rule" I believe is just for missionaries and Temple workers. On occasion, a Stake President may ask someone to shave to receive a certain calling but that's totally at their local level, his own preference and of course not an official church policy.

If we think about it, members in good standing with long hair, multiple earrings, beards and even tattoos all over can still go to the temple and make sacred covenants, the HOUSE OF THE LORD!. Of course, I am not condoning these things however I want to point out how silly the issue is based on this.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Suzie

[mightynancy]

If you are not an exception to God's rule, then I hope you'll consider wearing your hair more like the GAs.

Really? Not a one of them has a haircut that would look cute on me. Their coiffure would even be called an "extreme hairstyle" on me. Sigh.

[jayanna]

Well, the Dallas temple has a worker with long hair and a long beard. He is nice, he is really really old. I think the important thing is the spirit in which you grow your hair out. Are you doing it to defy social pressure or get attention, or are you doing it because you are trying to emulate someone or do you just look terrible without it? No one really knows but you and God. I am sorry that you think people don't like you because of it.

I kind of get snickered at in my ward because I'm overweight. Don't get me wrong, I'm not obese, but I did put on some poundage. I used to run a whole lot, but had to quit due to heart disease. It has been very hard for me to change my entire lifestyle, I was very athletic. Suddenly stopping the calorie burn was havoc on my metabolism. There is a clique of very popular sis.'s in my ward to routinely tell me that I am not obeying the word of wisdom. They think I don't notice them laughing, but I can hear them making jokes, planning enrichment meetings just for me, etc. I just attended one, actually. It was very informative (recipes!), and I thanked the sis. who gave the presentation, even though I caught her making one of the jokes when I walked up on her unawares one day. So, the point is, I can understand how it hurts to be looked at sideways.

My Heavenly Father knows me and loves me. Besides, if I had a w.o.w. problem I'm sure my hubby would call my attention to it, seeing as he is in the bishopric. Btw he used to have a mustache and beard, and when he just decided to shave it, I hardly recognized him! But he was much nicer to kiss!

Really it comes down to you and God.

[Carl62]

It's not that members are judging each other, it is that everyone in our communities watch Mormons and judge our appearances and our actions. The world is not fair and nonjudgemental. The world makes split second judgments based on our appearances. If our appearance is going to close the door to someone hearing about the gospel, then it is not worth it, is it?

So then what you're saying is that you think we (non conformist LDS) need to alter our appearance in order not to offend judgemental people that they may be receptive to our message and even join the church? Wouldn't we just be bringing in nothing but more judgemental people? Don't we have enough judgemental people in the church already that we're having to deal with? Whatever happened to those wonderful words of "judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement" (John 7:24). You remember who said that, don't you? Oh, and last thing I remember, the person who said this had a beard and long hair also.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Carl62

[MarginOfError]

So then what you're saying is that you think we (non conformist LDS) need to alter our appearance in order not to offend judgemental people that they may be receptive to our message and even join the church? Wouldn't we just be bringing in nothing but more judgemental people? Don't we have enough judgemental people in the church already that we're having to deal with? Whatever happened to those wonderful words of "judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement" (John 7:24). You remember who said that, don't you?

Kind of goes along with another scenario I hear pretty often.

Person A: I don't think it matters how we do this.

Person B: If it doesn't matter, then you should be happy to do it my way.

Person B, just doesn't seem to get it.

[Carl62]

If you are not an exception to God's rule, then I hope you'll consider wearing your hair more like the GAs.

I've seen a lot of GAs who have very little to no hair. Are you implying that we need to go in that direction in order to please the Lord? If God has set the standard for how GAs are supposed to wear their hair and we are to follow their example, then why do we still show pictures of Jesus with shoulder length hair and a beard? Also, wouldn't we want to look more like our Saviour and not conform like he did? Aren't we supposed to be in the world and not of it?

Edited July 30, 2010 by Carl62

[NeuroTypical]

I guess in the interests of full disclosure, I should just let y'all know. My wife and I have the (very serious and honest) plan to retire, buy and learn to ride some Harleys, join Bikers Against Child Abuse, and become what they are and do what they do.

We'll probably clean up a little on Sundays for church, though.

[Wingnut]

I guess in the interests of full disclosure, I should just let y'all know. My wife and I have the (very serious and honest) plan to retire, buy and learn to ride some Harleys, join Bikers Against Child Abuse, and become what they are and do what they do.

We'll probably clean up a little on Sundays for church, though.

There's a guy in my mom's ward who is the secretary (or treasurer?) for his local chapter of BACA. He's very involved.

[MarginOfError]

I've seen a lot of GAs who have very little to no hair. Are you implying that we need to go in that direction in order to please the Lord? If God has set the standard for how GAs are supposed to wear their hair and we are to follow their example, then why do we still show pictures of Jesus with shoulder length hair and a beard?

Come to think of it, why don't our images of him show him in a business suit. Those robes are so inappropriate.

Also, wouldn't we want to look more like our Saviour and not conform like he did?

Well, in regards to dress and grooming, the Savior very much was a conformist. Conformity was preferred in matters of social preference. Conformity was a bad thing when it was dogmatic and doctrinally unsound.

Aren't we supposed to be in the world and not of it?

That has become so cliche that I really don't know what it means anymore.

[MistyWarren]

I used to wear long hair. I had it for about a couple of years until the summer of this year. It was so hilarious how even my stake leaders were so affected that rumors started to spread. It even got to the point where the bishop was forced to interview me. The reason being that I was setting the wrong example for the youth. People were talking like "the bishop will lose moral authority since he can't make an adult follow the standards of the church so why would the youth follow the bishop's counsel?"

Unfortunately I was no longer connected to any youth organization in the church and I didn't quite get the logic behind the argument. I didn't have any stake callings and my current calling didn't involve working with the youth of the ward. And another thing, why would the bishop's moral authority be measured by how much the bishop is able to make me obey the bishop's counsel (or stake president's or stake president's counselors for that matter - the counselors in particular were being pushy at one point)

Some members nagged at me while others often took it to the point of ridicule. It was so hilarious.

However, there were an elite few who recognized that they should respect the choices I made and never even made mention of my neatly combed and trimmed long hair. Those people have earned my respect.

The story even gets more bizarre. You see, as the summer of this year was way too hot and keeping a long hair was no longer that practical. So I went in the opposite direction, I had my head shaved bald.

Guess what? I got the very same reaction as if I were long haired still. I thought, wow! You can't please them any other way. The same people wanted to stereotype me into what they believed were the "standard" hair style. They have a standard for everything - hair style, what priesthood holders should wear to church (should be white shirt and tie), how long should the tie be , standard priesthood demeanor...

I think that they were creating standards that weren't really there. I still have my head shaved and I wear colored shirts and sandals to church since I feel comfortable and reverent in them (besides, I injured my both my pinkie toes while practicing kicks).

This whole issue with long hair reminds me of the situation in Alma 32 where the poor were driven out of the synagogues because of the coarseness of their apparel without seeing the faith in their hearts. Alma et al were more successful with them.

I think we sometimes step beyond the bounds and concentrate too much on the forms of worship rather than the heart of worship when we pay too much attention to outward appearances.

[bl8tant]

I've seen a lot of GAs who have very little to no hair. Are you implying that we need to go in that direction in order to please the Lord

I hope so, 'cause that's an automatic "gimme" for me at the rate my hair is leaving.

[FlaviusHambonius]

Well I'm just glad that we don't have a time machine to go back to the early '70s and see me in my youth passing the sacrament with all of the other deacons.

Our hair would have been way to long by todays standard in the church. Throw in a pair of platform shoes from time to time and we would have heads spinning in todays church.

The hair just got longer and longer as the years went by and nobody seemed to ever say much at all about it because it was just part of what became the norm in society and much within the church at the time.

The Bishops sons even had what would be called by some here today as 'Hippie Hair'.

Fads come and fads go with society seeming to dictate what that particulair fad or flavor might be.

The 70's you had long hair all around, the back and sides -- the 80's came the dreaded mullet for some -- the 90's seemed like you had a little bit of everything going on --

Now the last several years in todays society the flavor seems to be either a very short cropped hair or a shaved head and of course it is a must to have the all to common goatee with the bald head.

I think this trend is something that most men of today seem to love -- especially the ones that have lost their hair or are losing it rapidly -- who wouldn't love it? Your going bald and still fall into the norm of society's dress code.

I personally like to change it up a little -- get tired of short hair -- grow it longer -- get tired of that -- back to short with maybe a beard or goatee or maybe clean shaven.

Hopefully we as believers in Christ can set our sight on a higher plane and not look at our brothers and sisters at the outward appearance but on the inward heart -- after all isn't that what it's all about?

They say once you die that your hair keeps growing -- so maybe those that just absolutley love that clean haircut and shave will come forth in the ressurection with longer hair and a beard -- General Authorities along with everyone else.

P.S. I forgot to mention those ties of the 70's that were about 8 inches wide at the bottom to go along with that long hair -- wow, what a combo!

Edited July 30, 2010 by FlaviusHambonius