ward implications of breast implants

[Matthew0059]

It seems almost like an obsession.

So what about the rich brother who drives he latest porsche to Church? Will he be the cause of contention and "cancer" in the ward after all there are so many poor saints or those who cannot afford such luxury and they may put themselves in debt in order to get one?

Possibly. You meant this as a ludicrous scenario, but there is a legitimate issue here. Because we're under the law of tithing, a rich member can pay a full tithe and get away with living in the lap of luxury while his fellow members go hungry. There is ALWAYS more to the story- but if the reason for having the automobile is 'this is a symbol of my wealth and power, therefore I use it', that man is sinning.

Such a man, unless he repents, could not live in a Zion society

We do not have control over people's choices but we DO have a choice over our reaction over their choices.

Agreed. I find it interesting, though, that virtually everyone on this thread who takes that stance also defends purely cosmetic surgery.

[crazypotato]

I find surgery to be more of a dramatic alteration than makeup and jewelry. Makeup washes off, jewelry can be taken off, there is no threat to your health.

I agree with Elgama that the most important commandment is to love God and then love each other. I don't think the OP is disagreeing with you on that though.

He is just trying to remind us all that we don't live in a bubble. Our western culture is very individualistic. Our culture teaches us to be free and independent and not let anyone tell us what to do or make us feel a certain way about ourselves. I think our cultural view may trickle into our gospel thinking. Other cultures seem to be more community/family oriented, where people regularly sacrifice their own selfish desires for the greater good of the family or community. For example - parts of Asia, they still have big family businesses, live with their extended families, revere their elderly, and all work together as a team. In these cultures, I think people are more self-aware than their actions affect everyone, negatively and positively.

I think all the OP is trying to say, is that we need to think of families, wards, and communities more than ourselves, as to how our decisions will impact them, rather than just thinking that it's a free country and I can do whatever I want and nobody should care or judge me. I don't think the debate is so much about implants as about sociology.

[crazypotato]

Possibly. You meant this as a ludicrous scenario, but there is a legitimate issue here. Because we're under the law of tithing, a rich member can pay a full tithe and get away with living in the lap of luxury while his fellow members go hungry. There is ALWAYS more to the story- but if the reason for having the automobile is 'this is a symbol of my wealth and power, therefore I use it', that man is sinning.

Such a man, unless he repents, could not live in a Zion society

Agreed. I find it interesting, though, that virtually everyone on this thread who takes that stance also defends purely cosmetic surgery.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because there are other things that people can do to negatively impact their ward doesn't negate the OP's opinion.

Just because there are posters on here that don't care or judge what other people do to their bodies does not mean that other people are not influenced. We all influence each other. I have been asked several times why people in Utah are all so rich? I don't live in Utah anymore, but when I go, I am always a little surprised by how many people live in really nice houses, and how alike the people dress and do their hair, etc. When I went to BYU, I remember feeling like I was in the Stepford Wives movie sometimes. Another thread we had here was how crazy all the Utah drivers are. I am not trying to bash Utah, I am just saying that Utah seems to have a lot of copy cats living together. I know that everyone there does not copy each other and that I am generalizing. But there are fashion trends, housing trends, hair and clothes trends, crazy car driving trends that especially influence the youth and the adults.

[Matthew0059]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because there are other things that people can do to negatively impact their ward doesn't negate the OP's opinion.

Just because there are posters on here that don't care or judge what other people do to their bodies does not mean that other people are not influenced. We all influence each other. I have been asked several times why people in Utah are all so rich? I don't live in Utah anymore, but when I go, I am always a little surprised by how many people live in really nice houses, and how alike the people dress and do their hair, etc. When I went to BYU, I remember feeling like I was in the Stepford Wives movie sometimes. Another thread we had here was how crazy all the Utah drivers are. I am not trying to bash Utah, I am just saying that Utah seems to have a lot of copy cats living together. I know that everyone there does not copy each other and that I am generalizing. But there are fashion trends, housing trends, hair and clothes trends, crazy car driving trends that especially influence the youth and the adults.

The LORD will begin the Earth's cleansing with a cleansing of the Saints; particularly (IMO) Utah.

[Guest]

Agreed. I find it interesting, though, that virtually everyone on this thread who takes that stance also defends purely cosmetic surgery.

No, the way I understand this thread, we don't defend breast surgery. What we do is understand that we could not possibly know what every woman is going through to have to resort to that alteration.

Here's a similar scenario. Word of Wisdom states that you should eat sparingly and not in excess. When brother Joe walks in the ward clearly 100 lbs overweight, we don't have this same discussion. Why? Because, everybody accepts the fact that brother Joe could be overweight because of a medical condition (even if in reality he's just a lazy slob guilty of gluttony). Now, when Sister Jane walks in the ward looking different on the chest, albeit still dressed modestly, we immediately point at her and say, She Wants to Be A Sex Object! It could possibly be that she had what you would consider a reconstructive surgery.

On another note, I don't understand what you mean by purely cosmetic surgery. Unless you are fixing your mammaries so that it can produce milk when it couldn't, any breast surgery is cosmetic. Yes, that includes reconstruction after a mastectomy.

If you lose your leg, you get prosthetics to replace the function lost - walking/running/etc. It is not there for cosmetic purposes. If you lose a breast, you don't get breast implants to replace the function lost. You replace it so it looks good again. Purely cosmetic.

Edited August 4, 2010 by anatess

[Snow]

What I learned from this is that when very good LDS members get implants they can be more destructive than less active people because other members see their actions as validating and credible. And when it comes to cosmetic surgery to have a certain body image (not reconstructive to deal with a medical/health issue) – these women’s actions caused harm to others (e.g., creating a ward divide rather than unity, made women with smaller breasts feel ‘less than’, promoted an unhealthy sexual objectified body image, created tension between daughters and parents, . That is why I see an important missing aspect to the breast implant debate – that aspect if the sociological implications of breast implants. .

What a bunch of baloney. The women's actions didn't cause any harm to anyone. Except for young children, people are agents and choose for themselves how to act and how to react.

[Snow]

Possibly. You meant this as a ludicrous scenario, but there is a legitimate issue here. Because we're under the law of tithing, a rich member can pay a full tithe and get away with living in the lap of luxury while his fellow members go hungry. There is ALWAYS more to the story- but if the reason for having the automobile is 'this is a symbol of my wealth and power, therefore I use it', that man is sinning.

Such a man, unless he repents, could not live in a Zion society

I see somebody died and left you pope, as if you get to decide who gets what blessings. Who's more likely to get a ticket in? A guy in a Porche or some pomp who self-rigtheoulys pretends to speak for God and declares that God rejects people he doesn't like.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Snow

[Suzie]

Agreed. I find it interesting, though, that virtually everyone on this thread who takes that stance also defends purely cosmetic surgery.

I think you are confusing "defending" with not making a big deal about it.

[Elgama]

Agreed. I find it interesting, though, that virtually everyone on this thread who takes that stance also defends purely cosmetic surgery.

Well actually I do - my illness and children have taken a toll on my teeth. My breasts survived kids well but my teeth collapsed. I am saving up to have work done. Its not painful and I can manage without the surgery or even false teeth. But you know what I would love it to just look better.

Not sure that is much different. I don't have any self esteem issue its not necessary but yes ny life will be enriched. A woman who has sacrificed her body in pregnancy, childbirth and rearing has given at least 10% to building up the kingdom of God. If she has paid tithes and offerings she has given what the Lord requires. And it may even enrich her marriage, either through her own confidence increasing or just on a fun level.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Elgama

[hordak]

Well actually I do - my illness and children have taken a toll on my teeth. My breasts survived kids well but my teeth collapsed. I am saving up to have work done. Its not painful and I can manage without the surgery or even false teeth. But you know what I would love it to just look better.

Not sure that is much different. I don't have any self esteem issue its not necessary but yes ny life will be enriched. A woman who has sacrificed her body in pregnancy, childbirth and rearing has given at least 10% to building up the kingdom of God. If she has paid tithes and offerings she has given what the Lord requires. And it may even enrich her marriage, either through her own confidence increasing or just on a fun level.

Ya know that's a good point. No one seems to take issue with cosmetic dentistry.

I didn't have dental insurance growing up. So while many of my peers (church member included) were getting braces so they could fit into a society that values straight teeth, i was left with what i got.

Luckily i have good genetics as it pertains to teeth, and they are straight but i do have a face like a bull dog

http://thm-a01.yimg.com/nimage/1bb688f97582ab2a(underbite)

If i were to go out and get a risky surgery to correct the issue would it be my choice/fault?

Or would the blame lay with those superficial parents and kids who fell into societies view that nice teeth look better and modeled this behavior by selfishly getting their kids braces, retainers etc without once thinking that someone like myself might buy into this idea as well and see part of my self worth based on teeth alignment?

I'm thinking it's the first 1.

[Suzie]

That's not quite accurate. I don't see a problem with minor accessorizing to accentuate one's natural beauty- it is to accentuate sexuality that I have a problem with. Personally, I like my girls' face with minimal or no makeup, natural hair color, small earrings (if any), no more than 1-2 rings on her fingers... As I said before, though, the key difference between breast implants and what you've listed is the aspect of appearance being enhanced.

Oh I see what you are saying. Well, of course that's just your opinion and I absolutely respect that (actually I am not keen about plastic surgery because most of the time the result hardly ends up looking natural). However, I think the only two points I disagree with you is:

1. Stating that it is a "sin". What is the basis for this? As any other sin, does it require repentance and even confession to the Bishop? Does it stop someone from entering the house of the Lord?

2. Blaming the person making the choice for whatever is happening in the ward. I absolutely disagree with that. In my ward, there are people just like me. Some make better choices than I do, others do not but I wouldn't expect to put the blame on them for my own choices. I am a big woman, not a wimp. Therefore, I would expect to have what it takes to check my own life and see what can I do to improve/change in my OWN personal life than be checking other people's boobs, tattoos or earrings.

This is NOT for you but when I read things like the OP, it makes me think lots of people are so disconnected with REALITY. I have lived in different parts of the world where our brothers and sisters suffer hunger, deprivations of every kind, health related issues and so much more... and there are only a few who extent a hand to these sweet souls in those parts of the world and they are so grateful for whatever it is given to them because the pain is big and their suffering long.

This is such a petty issue when there are so many URGENT matters. It saddens me that our priorities and thoughts are so screwed up and so self centered that we forget or neglect the REAL purpose of why we are here.

The members of this ward I believe need a reality check, go out and do some serious service to people who are truly in need (breast implant sister included) and all those stupid fight over a piece of silocone, over whether is a sin or is not a sin, whether someone offended me or haven't, whether someone gave me a seat or haven't will GO AWAY!

It is when we are so concentrated in our own selves and our own little world that we find these issues (breast implants) troublesome.

My two cents for what they are worth.

[miztrniceguy]

Sometimes, people have body image issues.

That's the fault of the world.

Sometimes, those body image issues can be resolved by breast implants.

Most often they can not. If you want to stop breast implants, then help all women to feel beautiful regardless of what the world says..

If you can't do that, then don't be surprised that some people want to change the way they look.

Does that mean we should regularly compliment all the women in the ward about how nice their breasts are so they will have a good self-image?

[FunkyTown]

Does that mean we should regularly compliment all the women in the ward about how nice their breasts are so they will have a good self-image?

You should always deal with women in all ways according to the EWC rule. Basically, add the EWC rule to the end of any sentence that has to do with dealing with women.

That's the 'Except when creepy' rule.

"You should tease women." "Except when creepy."

"You should compliment women." "Except when creepy."

"You should ask women out." "Except when creepy."

And this is meant in the purest sense. Creepy being 'Creep-like'. If you ask women out when you're married, that's being like a creep.

If you compliment women on their boobs, that is very dangerous territory depending on how close you are. It could be fine. Probably creepy, though.

[UrbanFool]

Does that mean we should regularly compliment all the women in the ward about how nice their breasts are so they will have a good self-image?

And on that note, I'm off to the cannery to do a little good for my fellow galactic residents.

[Guest]

Ya know that's a good point. No one seems to take issue with cosmetic dentistry.

If i were to go out and get a risky surgery to correct the issue would it be my choice/fault?

Or would the blame lay with those superficial parents and kids who fell into societies view that nice teeth look better and modeled this behavior by selfishly getting their kids braces, retainers etc without once thinking that someone like myself might buy into this idea as well and see part of my self worth based on teeth alignment?

I'm thinking it's the first 1.

It would be a non-issue because teeth does not equal sex in the USA.

Ergo... this problem with implants is really not about cosmetic surgery. It's about this convoluted mindset that breasts are nothing but sexual objects.

But, if you really apply the Prophet's counsel on vanity - surgical cosmetic dentistry and boob jobs should be on the same boat... Shouldn't be done as a way to enhance one's self to feel "accepted" or "worthy". Make sense?

[Suzie]

But, if you really apply the Prophet's counsel on vanity - surgical cosmetic dentistry and boob jobs should be on the same boat... Shouldn't be done as a way to enhance one's self to feel "accepted" or "worthy". Make sense?

Completely.

[justaname]

Crazy Potato:

Your comments are great and let me provide an answer to your question regarding why members will still not follow the explicit counsel of General Authorities regard not going for body modifications and staying away from the over-sexualized woman image. The answer is that these members know more than General Authorities and can find all sorts of ways to rationalize such behaviors. Justaname exemplifies this.

Justaname:

I do appreciate your comments and they support the topic I have outlined that individual actions really do affect others and the ward implications of a single woman's actions. However, I think the linkage of your wife's breast implants to another women with cancer is ridiculous. One is a real medical issue (e.g., mastectomy) and the other is not. You are rationalizing a behavior that Elder Holland has clearly outlined is not appropriate and can harm others.

With this said, however, I have always supported reconstructive surgery that is oriented toward remedying illness, accident, and abnormalities. If you wife was completely flat, I would honestly see this as an abnormality that is focused on reconstructive surgery. However, I do not know where the line is between an abnormality in size. I know an AA cup means breast are smaller, what I do not know is what size is too small to be considered an abnormality. This is a blurred line. At the same time, however, I know of women who have used an abnormality as a rationalize when there was not not (e.g., not perfect symmetry).

In my mind, Elder Holland counsel is very straight forward -- but I guess you know more than him. I have also learned that most, if not all, cosmetic oriented breast implants are based on the concept of coveting. It might be coveting a Hollywood star, or it might be coveting one's own past image, but it is an action of coveting and as you outlined, it causes problems for others.

The other aspects is that as a man, I know that I do not understand the emotional aspects of being a smaller-breasted women, in which even when dressed modesty, such women can be the end of jokes and mockery. Sadly, there are too many men (both in and outside of the Church) that find average to larger size breast attractive. My point is that although I disagree with you, I do not want to undermine the emotional aspects and I may lack real life experience in this areas because I'm male.

This post is great. Let me translate your passive aggressive statement:

"Let us take justaname for example. This here is the perfect example of a "good member" who justifies the counsel of an apostle. Justaname's wife ignored this counsel and therefore committed the sin of coveting. This "good member" sinned and therefore caused other people to sin. Let us not be like the justanames."

You talk about sociological impacts of peoples choices relative to breast implants, but you ignore the sociological impacts of the high and mighty members judging us "worldly" members. Do you realize that your judging and pointing fingers at these women, and the men they are married to, is just as damaging to the spirit in a ward?

Why is it sad that men are attracted to normal to large size breasts? Is it better to be attracted to smaller breasts? Physically, Im attracted to a fit woman with average to large breasts. Maybe this is because this is what Hollywood wants me to be attracted to. Maybe if I was born in Samoa Id be attracted to a large woman, but that would be because I was culturally inclined to be attracted to large women. Either way, Im sinning right?

Matthew, do you really think a guy that drives a Porsche is not fit for Zion? The guy drives a Porsche which means he has money. According to your logic, that means he has money left over and should be giving it to the rest of the members. How do you know he is not doing that? It's called fast offerings and we are told the formula for how to calculate what we should give, but we have also been counseled to be generous with our offerings. Let me clue you in on something, unless you are the finance clerk in your ward, you really have no idea what this guy is donating to fast offerings. (I know this is a fictitious Porsche driver but bear with me.) There is a guy in my ward who drives a really, really nice car. So does his wife. He also happens to donate a significant amount of money to our ward mission fund. Each month he donates double the amount of my mortgage to fast offerings. I know Im going to sound arrogant here, but Im already a sinner so who cares, but my mortgage isnt cheap. Beyond his financial contributions to our ward and our missionaries, he is a spiritual giant. If I was half the man and priesthood holder he was, Id feel ready to meet my Maker. I could go on and on about this individual and the man he is, but Id rather keep a little anonymity for myself and for him.

Im rambling, so Ill summarize:

-God is our judge and he judges righteously.

-Fellow members think they are judges and judge poorly.

-God looketh upon the heart, not upon the breasts or the car.

-Remember the beam.

[crazypotato]

The problem with this thread and hundreds of other threads on LDS.net is that people start getting personal - we bring up personal examples and then everyone reading makes a judgment.

Sometimes I wonder if having these kinds of discussions on the internet, where we don't really know each other, is a good means of communicating at all.

It seems like one person, say the OP, will write their opinion on the best way to follow a gospel principle. Then others chime in about whether the OP is too judgmental or not, using personal examples. Then, because personal examples are used people may disagree with your own personal experience, the examples are judged. It seems like a vehicle for contention.

I don't think that Justaname and his wife are sinners for getting implants. It is true that it is not my business to decide whether they are or not. I also don't think the OP is a self-righteous, judgemental person. I truly believe he is concerned with ward and societal trends, not with judging individuals on here or elsewhere as good or bad. As he has stated, he is looking at this sociologically. Written communication is the least effective way to talk to people. I have had my feelings hurt and have felt attacked on LDS.net, and I have seen others attacked and hurt, and I have been accused myself of being self-righteous on here.

If I were a moderator of this site, I would be tempted to close a lot more of these threads faster than they are, but perhaps they don't want to censor people or be too controlling. I am not criticizing the moderators. I just think I see truth in what everyone says, but there is too much contention and arguing. Everyone here is doing what they think is best according to how they interpret the gospel, and perhaps gospel discussions would avoid a lot of this crap if they were only done in settings where a word of prayer inviting the Holy Ghost in. Otherwise, are we inviting contention?

[Snow]

Ya know that's a good point. No one seems to take issue with cosmetic dentistry.

That's because people are repressed and have unhealthy views on sexuality. Undoubtedly there will be some posters who will equate a bosom with sex and claim - whatever nonsense about sex or such attractiveness being bad, ie just another opportunity to pass moral judgement on others whose appearance or wealth or standing give rise to some lesser secure people feeling inferior.

[bl8tant]

God looketh upon the heart, not upon the breasts or the car.

I thank you, kind sir, for helping me choose my new signature.

[Suzie]

If I were a moderator of this site, I would be tempted to close a lot more of these threads faster than they are

Oh wow, good thing you are not. :)

I am not keen about the idea of closing threads because people start getting their feelings hurt or interpret things in the wrong way. If that's the case, why to bother participating in a discussion at all? IMO, as long as everyone is respectful then a good debate (even one with opposite and strong view points) should be welcome.

I always say, if someone feels they cannot handle emotionally a thread (for whatever reason) or they do not like people disagreeing with their view point or challenged, then maybe they shouldn't participate in that particular thread and participate in others they feel they can handle.

If someone results to name calling or hijacking threads then of course moderators should intervene.

IMO, of course.

[pam]

If I were a moderator of this site, I would be tempted to close a lot more of these threads faster than they are, but perhaps they don't want to censor people or be too controlling. I am not criticizing the moderators

Many lately prefer to do the critizing of moderators privately.

[havejoy]

If everyone on this board would just realize and admit that I am always right the threads would be a lot shorter and none of them would need to be closed.

Just saying.

[crazypotato]

Many lately prefer to do the critizing of moderators privately.

No criticism was meant. My point was not to criticize the moderators, but all of us posters for getting personal with each other, and then I added that moderators probably do not want to be hyper about shutting threads down.

[Soulsearcher]

Faith and opinions are very personal, so I'm not sure what this site would be with out people getting personal. Would be rather dull and dry.