What will tomorrow bring?

[Boris_natasha]

?????? Bearing false witness......um...what exactly? Lie? um....No. Me treating marriage lightly...again no....I fully support marriage as between a man and a woman. Perhaps the words from a Prophet might help you with your confusion: We want to help these people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them with their difficulties. But we cannot stand idle if they indulge in immoral activity, if they try to uphold and defend and live in a so-called same-sex marriage situation. To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families.- President Gordon B Hinckley

Bearing false witness by inplying that if gay marriage were made legal it would bring about perverted unions. Treating marriage lightly by saying that pure eternal marriage can never occur between gay couples. Lying and creating chaos by painting a generalized view of gays.

[Boris_natasha]

Then you might try NOT supporting something that can only harm them and the LDS Church's view is the Lord's view.

I support people who have made a sane, well-considered decision to marry. I support them even more when they are wanting to be companions that are going to make the world a better place, because their gay marriage will legally be considered equal to hetero marriage. These are only my views.

[Dravin]

Bearing false witness by inplying that if gay marriage were made legal it would bring about perverted unions.

Why not answer the question? Either such a relationship (I imagine bytor was suggesting a polygamist relationship between consenting adults) would be acceptable (having met the criteria stated) or there are more (unspoken) criteria involved here. The fun thing here will be to see if your position is ironically familiar to some of those opposing homosexual marriage or not.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Dravin

[bytor2112]

I do believe that the council of the prophets is divinely inspired. But I also believe that I can, and do, pray that God will give word that will shed light on this issue. Because I disagree that this is an issue of permitting immorality.

Shed light on the issue? I posted a direct quote from a Prophet of God who stated directly that is an immoral activity. The quote was from President Hinckley and don't you think that President Monson also speaks the will of the Lord in regards to this issue?

Seriously, I think like many others you are confusing your empathy for people who struggle with same sex attraction and allowing those compassionate feelings to over rule righteous council.

[bytor2112]

I support people who have made a sane, well-considered decision to marry. I support them even more when they are wanting to be companions that are going to make the world a better place, because their gay marriage will legally be considered equal to hetero marriage. These are only my views.

There marriages will never be equal to hetero marriage and I am sorry, but it doesn't make the world a better place. It gives the adversary yet more influence over people's lives and a state seal of approval doesn't make their "marriage" right, equal , moral or good.

[bytor2112]

Bearing false witness by inplying that if gay marriage were made legal it would bring about perverted unions. Treating marriage lightly by saying that pure eternal marriage can never occur between gay couples. Lying and creating chaos by painting a generalized view of gays.

Gay marriage IS a perverted union. Eternal Marriage can never occur between two men or two women. These are not Bytor's rules...they are the Lord's. Perhaps you should acquaint your self with the Gospel and gain a testimony of following the Prophet. Go ask your Bishop or Stake President about these issues and you'll likely here the same thing.

It's not about hate or disdain for those who struggle AGAINST these unholy desires, it is about further perpetuating the lie that the adversary has made so attractive to them and even some that should know better.

Frankly, I think they will ultimately be allowed to marry and will likely become the law of the land. The world is indeed a wicked place and is becoming more wicked.

Edited August 5, 2010 by bytor2112

[FunkyTown]

There marriages will never be equal to hetero marriage and I am sorry, but it doesn't make the world a better place. It gives the adversary yet more influence over people's lives and a state seal of approval doesn't make their "marriage" right, equal , moral or good.

Funny how in political discussions, we're always on opposite ends, but in moral discussions we're always on the same side.

Bytor is right. Legalizing sin doesn't make it sinless.

Do I understand why it's a sin? No. Do I recognize it's a difficult practice to cease? Absolutely. Can I condemn another engaging in it? No. I'm far from perfect and haven't abandoned my own selfish desires entirely to give all to God. I have been angry, or selfish, in the past.

But that doesn't mean I excuse my own actions, nor can I excuse others because it is politically expedient.

[bytor2112]

Funny how in political discussions, we're always on opposite ends, but in moral discussions we're always on the same side.

Bytor is right. Legalizing sin doesn't make it sinless.

Do I understand why it's a sin? No. Do I recognize it's a difficult practice to cease? Absolutely. Can I condemn another engaging in it? No. I'm far from perfect and haven't abandoned my own selfish desires entirely to give all to God. I have been angry, or selfish, in the past.

But that doesn't mean I excuse my own actions, nor can I excuse others because it is politically expedient.

Always?? No, we agree on many things politically. Heck, I sometimes agree with liberal issues....but more often than not, I remain a small government conservative.

[Just_A_Guy]

Always?? No, we agree on many things politically. Heck, I sometimes agree with liberal issues....but more often than not, I remain a small government conservative.

And, FWIW, FunkyTown strikes me as one of those rare self-described moderates who really IS a moderate (rather than a progressive trying to pass himself off as a "moderate" in order to make conservatives look loony).

[MarginOfError]

And, FWIW, FunkyTown strikes me as one of those rare self-described moderates who really IS a moderate (rather than a progressive trying to pass himself off as a "moderate" in order to make conservatives look loony).

You don't have to pass yourself off as a moderate to make conservatives look loony. It's just a fact...conservatives are loony. Then again, so are liberals. The moderates are the only sane people left on earth.

[FunkyTown]

You don't have to pass yourself off as a moderate to make conservatives look loony. It's just a fact...conservatives are loony. Then again, so are liberals. The moderates are the only sane people left on earth.

CENTRIST! *shakes fist* Moderates are wishy-washy.

Centrists are the ones who, on liberal-dominated forums get called fascist and on conservative dominated forums get called communists.

[Boris_natasha]

Why not answer the question? Either such a relationship (I imagine bytor was suggesting a polygamist relationship between consenting adults) would be acceptable (having met the criteria stated) or there are more (unspoken) criteria involved here. The fun thing here will be to see if your position is ironically familiar to some of those opposing homosexual marriage or not.

It would seem to me that bytor, you and I are not promoting polygamy in hetero marriages. Because it would be against the Plan of Salvation, therefore, it would be considered a perverted union. It is unfair, wrong and a total falsehood to imply that gay marriage would somehow make polygamy valid. That was my answer, and I stand by that.

[Dravin]

It would seem to me that bytor, you and I are not promoting polygamy in hetero marriages. Because it would be against the Plan of Salvation, therefore, it would be considered a perverted union.

Your argument, such as it is, is ironically familiar. I suspected it would be such. Tweak a few words and you sound like a standard argument against legalized homosexual unions.

It is unfair, wrong and a total falsehood to imply that gay marriage would somehow make polygamy valid. That was my answer, and I stand by that.

You might as well take a stance on the word "purple". Bytor is not implying that homosexual unions morally legitimize unauthorized polygamous unions. He's saying if one can make the moral judgement of declaring polygamous unions should have no legal backing (as your argument above is a moral one) why can't one make the moral judgement of declaring that homosexual unions should have no legal backing (with almost the same arguments verbatim)? He's using his question to suggest that the same arguments can be used to either legitimize them or condemn them, so why is the same argument applied to one (homosexual relationships) work for you but when that same argument is applied to the other (polygamy) it doesn't work?

You're taking a stance against a straw-man, which I suppose is comforting in it's own way but not overly impressive. You keep on saying that he's implying that homosexual unions legitimize polygamous ones, he's actually doing the opposite, that polygamous unions can benefit from much of the same arguments without being legitimate delegitimize homosexual ones. For the record I don't think all the arguments can be carried straight across but the ones you've presented can, so either there are some you've not shared (For instance legally speaking nobody is enjoying legal polygamous unions so there is no discrimination argument that can be made) or you are being inconsistent in your application of them. So ultimately Bytor is asking what are the ones you've not shared, or why aren't you being consistent in equally applicable (in his mind) arguments?

Edited August 5, 2010 by Dravin

[pam]

The moderates are the only sane people left on earth.

I think you misspelled moderates. I think you meant moderators. :)

[Soulsearcher]

They said sane not senile :)

[Dravin]

They said sane not senile :)

Bold statement for someone who apparently lost their soul in the couch, most folks reserve that for their keys.

[Moksha]

They said sane not senile :)

Wait a minute, I will protest that as soon as this Denture Grip dries.

[Boris_natasha]

I just have to wonder, while those of you who were proudly thinking you'd know what I'd say and what kind of person I am, did you know I'd wind up in the hospital suffering physical and emotional trauma because of some of your comments? I could'nt stop crying all that day, night, and following morning. Of course, this is meaningless to you. I was so distraught, I had a heart attack. Minor, of course, but you can't imagine the effect on my family. They could not understand how such a shy, quiet, gentle soul like me would deserve being hurt. I wasn't even trying to argue or debate in my comments. Most of all, I felt betrayed by the countless other LDS members who think like me, but didn't even bother to comment. This is why some people think all LDS are dead inside.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Boris_natasha

[beefche]

I just have to wonder, while those of you who were proudly thinking you'd know what I'd say and what kind of person I am, did you know I'd wind up in the hospital suffering physical and emotional trauma because of some of your comments? I could'nt stop crying all that day, night, and following morning. Of course, this is meaningless to you. I was so distraught, I had a heart attack. Minor, of course, but you can't imagine the effect on my family. They could not understand how such a shy, quiet, gentle soul like me would deserve being hurt. I wasn't even trying to argue or debate in my comments. Most of all, I felt betrayed by the countless other LDS members who think like me, but didn't even bother to comment. This is why some people think all LDS are dead inside.

If this is true and you actually were hospitalized, then I say this with all sincerity. You should seek counseling to determine why you allow an internet forum to influence your life so much that it causes you ill health. And I would recommend you stay away from internet forums until you can interact in a way that is healthy.

[HEthePrimate]

The world won't come to an end if "Adam and Steve" next door get married. Or if they don't. But who am I to stand in the way of love?

HEP

[Dravin]

did you know I'd wind up in the hospital suffering physical and emotional trauma because of some of your comments?

Nope, as a general rule I assume people, particularly those who wonder out into the internet, are made of sterner stuff, both physically and emotionally such that calling someone a liar and having people object to such a characterization doesn't cause them supposed grievous harm. Particularly if they are inclined to jump in and sling accusations.

They could not understand how such a shy, quiet, gentle soul like me would deserve being hurt. I wasn't even trying to argue or debate in my comments.

Yes so shy, quiet and gentle that they accused someone of being a liar and taking marriage lightly. I'm curious, do you normal not try to start arguments or debates by calling people liars and ascribing negative positions to them? Just a helpful FYI, that behavior is highly contrary to your stated goals.

If what you say is true, that calling someone a liar and having people object causes you such extreme emotional pain and results in physical damage to your body, instead of melodrama intended to elicit pathetic appeal, you should probably follow Beefche's advice. I suppose even if your post is pure manufactured melodrama her advice is still applicable to a degree.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Dravin

[Just_A_Guy]

I just have to wonder, while those of you who were proudly thinking you'd know what I'd say and what kind of person I am, did you know I'd wind up in the hospital suffering physical and emotional trauma because of some of your comments? I could'nt stop crying all that day, night, and following morning. Of course, this is meaningless to you. I was so distraught, I had a heart attack.

Guys, expect to see more claims like this in the future. Many, many more. The right to marry is small potatoes. The Holy Grail here for many, many people is the right not to hear things that offend us and the right to punish the people who say them.

And that disease isn't limited to gay-rights supporters, by the way.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Boris_natasha]

Today is a day I will never forget. And it is one of the reasons I LOVE being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I was visited and blessed by the branch president and his counselors. I also got a visit from the Stake President, his wife and several church members. After we talked, shared internet stories, and said many prayers, I began to feel better. I needed their hugs, laughter and perspective. They really expressed such compassion. I just thank God for that sweet spirit and sense of loving community in the LDS church out here. But the best of all, my husband, who is not LDS and never cared for the LDS church, vowed to give the Sunday services a try. Wow! I'm so thrilled. I've been praying that he'd come around some day. He was just so inspired by the outpouring of love.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Boris_natasha