Feeling a little thin-skinned

[pam]

Thank you Suzie..exactly what I've been trying to say.

[Moksha]

why do we care if we make a good impression or not? It's almost embarrassing to me that we're so caught up in our public image. But aside from that, hopefully, the truly elect and pure of heart will be touched by the spirit when they hear the Gospel (whether or not they have seen the ads).

The Church's stated goals have nothing to do with working solely with the truly elect. They include proclaiming the Gospel to the world and the huge Church missionary effort is geared toward continually bringing people into the Church. To that end, being viewed unfavorably by the majority of people (see the most recent FAIR conference: 5 to 2 ratio of unfavorable to favorable) is an impediment to the Church's goals.

[carlimac]

The Church's stated goals have nothing to do with working solely with the truly elect. They include proclaiming the Gospel to the world and the huge Church missionary effort is geared toward continually bringing people into the Church. To that end, being viewed unfavorably by the majority of people (see the most recent FAIR conference: 5 to 2 ratio of unfavorable to favorable) is an impediment to the Church's goals.

Everyone is taking everything I'm saying so literally. "Truly elect" is a phrase that means (to me anyway) nothing more than someone who is prepared to recognize the truth of the Gospel when they hear it. What I'm trying to say is that while many will look suspiciously and criticize the church for these ads, hopefully there will be some people in whom an interest will spark through the ads. Or at the very least, the ads won't be a deterrant or a negative association for them when they do hear the gospel message . It seems like they would be a negative for some according to what I'm reading in the blogs.

Just for the record, I love the Gospel. I'm a very strong active member and always intend to be. But sometimes the Church PR people, expert or not, get a little overzealous and the effect can be a bit cheesy sometimes. A little like BYU sports fans who in my book rate as the most annoying I've ever come across. And I'm a BYU alum!

Edited August 15, 2010 by carlimac

[pam]

What I'm trying to say is that while many will look suspiciously and criticize the church for these ads, hopefully there will be some people in whom an interest will spark through the ads.

Isn't that what I've been saying?

[Wingnut]

I'd be more comfortable with flyers or a carnival put on by the church where all the public is invited for free and everyone has a good time.

A carnival? You're not really serious, are you? What does a carnival have to with either doctrine or the LDS culture or the people part of it? Absolutely nothing. The Church does temple open houses that welcome the public. This ad campaign is aimed at showing people that Mormons are similar to them -- everyday normal folk. People don't go around looking for carnivals to happen, and even if they did, many might not get near enough to find out that it's free. In order to make it known that it was free, as you suggest (which would be a really expensive yet highly ineffective undertaking), they'd have to -- gasp! -- advertise!!! Additionally, a carnival would only have a minor, local effect. A widespread ad campaign like this affects many more people -- who might not go to a carnival -- for the same cost.

And flyers? This isn't junior high. Though it's worth noting that pass-along cards are a comparable concept.

You are using technology, you are using the Media. What can you expect? You can only get two reactions: The positive ones and the negatives ones. The negatives ones WILL happen with or without the ads. The Church has experts on the field, they know exactly what they are doing and the whole purpose of the ads is to let people know that Mormons aren't only missionaries dressed in suits, moms with 10 children and all we do is go to Church and worship. The Church wants to let people know that our members can also be fun, exciting, intelligent and pretty much like your next door neighbor! That's the message they are trying to send.

Wish I could thank this post twice!

carlimac, to be blunt, if you don't like the comments on "the blogs," don't read them!

[pam]

Someone else mentioned how the ads should be about the Atonement etc. Somehow atonement and carnival don't seem to go together. :)

Edited August 15, 2010 by pam

[Honor]

"...the Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done." -Joseph Smith

Get ready.

[carlimac]

Isn't that what I've been saying?

Yup! Looks like we're both saying the same thing.:)

[carlimac]

Someone else mentioned how the ads should be about the Atonement etc. Somehow atonement and carnival don't seem to go together. :)

Ok you smart alecs. You could at least inquire about what I'm mean by carnival before you go poking fun. (Almost every time I've been on this forum I end up bashed by Wingnut or sadly questioned by Pam- at least your gingerbread man looks sad. Why not give him a happy face so I don't always think your posts are so negative.)

ANYWAY...if anyone is interested in trying to understand what I had in mind (ahem!!) ...I remember going to "carnival" type activities in my ward. Booths set up with games, activities, food, samples of Family Home Evening lessons, that type of thing. The Women's Conference at BYU has this type of thing- booths or stations set up for educational and iformational purposes and for hands on projects. Maybe carnival isn't the right word but it's the word that came to mind at the moment. "Fair" maybe? But then you'd probably scoff at that one, too.

I've heard of a quilting bee where a stake Relief Society joined together with other Christian women from many churches and made hundreds of quilts over several weekends to donate to earthquake victims. I mentioned the clothing give away in Minneapolis. How about work projects where people from other churches could work side by side with Latter Day Saints? Our stake did a Nativity every year at the stake house and invited the general public. A really special program was put on. A bell choir from another church was invited to perform, Nativities from many families outside the church were put on display. It was a great missionary event. The church had a very positive reputation in our community.

I just think spending the money to DO something for others- put the gospel in action, actually allow people to work with, talk with, meet real live Latter Day Saints might be a better way to "promote" ourselves if this is the objective we're after, rather than just putting a pretty face on TV.

Nobody has to agree with me. I'd just appreciate it if you could be a little kinder in your responses. But then it wouldn't be any fun to come on these forums would it? At times I don't think LDS forums are much different than all the comment boards with the nasty mean spirited individuals criticizing the church. The internet emboldens people to say things they probably wouldn't dare say to a person's face. These kinds of forums (even LDS ones) encourage debate and sometimes it can get contentious and even those of us who "talk of Christ and preach of Christ" forget common Christ-like courtesy.

Thanks to those who tried to add to the conversation with insightful comments rather than tearing it down.

Edited June 29, 2011 by carlimac

[pam]

Ok you smart alecs. You could at least inquire about what I'm mean by carnival before you go poking fun. (Almost every time I've been on this forum I end up bashed by Wingnut or sadly questioned by Pam- at least your gingerbread man looks sad. Why not give him a happy face so I don't always think your posts are so negative.)

Careful that's considered flaming. I am only responding to what you personally have said. Let's take a look.

Your original stance is this:

First of all, I'm not sure why the Church feels the need to put these ads on TV. Really, if we're doing the Lord's work and living the Gospel, why do we care if we make a good impression or not? It's almost embarrassing to me that we're so caught up in our public image. But aside from that, hopefully, the truly elect and pure of heart will be touched by the spirit when they hear the Gospel (whether or not they have seen the ads). Some have conjectured that the ads are priming the public for Mitt Romneys potential run again in 2012. The Church publicity team denies this. Who knows?

It's not the ads that bother me.

I'm not completely against the ads. They're really Ok and nicely done but I think the motive behind them will seem a little suspect to the world viewing them. Why does a church feel the need to identify itself in this way? What are they trying to sell us? What's the point? What's the message here? Why should we care if this cute surfer girl or funny artist mom is a Mormon?

I AM concerned about the really mean and nasty stuff people write about the church.

What I'm trying to say is that while many will look suspiciously and criticize the church for these ads, hopefully there will be some people in whom an interest will spark through the ads.

Yup! Looks like we're both saying the same thing.:)

If you had not completely changed your stance throughout the thread I wouldn't say anything. But by the end, you have contradicted your original post.

Your OP hints that it's just a primer for Mitt Romney. Is that not a negative statement? To insinuate that the Church has ulterior motives in its ads. The Church has been doing ads for years. All they've done is change their style and try to reach a different group of people in a different media.

So now that you've attacked me personally, take a look. Not once have I attacked you personally, only disagreed with your comments and posted responses. That's not personally attacking you. If I had said you were crazy or your avatar seems negative to me so I take your posts to be negative. THAT would be personally attacking you.

You could at least inquire about what I'm mean by carnival before you go poking fun.

Then please state what you mean when posting. For the majority of us when we read carnival, we think of rides, food, game booths etc. Something along the lines of our town days in the various cities in Utah (for those of us that live here). Not something done on a ward or stake level. Then there would not be the confusion.

Edited August 15, 2010 by pam

[Moksha]

I see wisdom in the Church's ads. They are trying to portray Mormons as normal everyday people. Why would anyone dislike or mistrust normal everyday people? It is a simple message and hopefully will be effective.

[Suzie]

(Almost every time I've been on this forum I end up bashed by Wingnut or sadly questioned by Pam-

It's interesting that you mention this because in my experience Pam is one of the most caring posters on this board, we don't agree with a lot of things however she has always remained respectful. There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning or challenging your views, that's exactly what you open up to when you participate in a discussion forum.

Bashed by Wingnut? I think she is amazing (and we don't agree in a lot of things as well) She tell it like it is without the sugar coating and flowers some people may be expecting. She never attacked you. I think you maybe confusing challenging your views with personal attack. Two completely different things.

ANYWAY...if anyone is interested in trying to understand what I had in mind (ahem!!) ...I remember going to "carnival" type activities in my ward. Booths set up with games, activities, food, samples of Family Home Evening lessons, that type of thing. The Women's Conference at BYU has this type of thing- booths or stations set up for educational and iformational purposes and for hands on projects. Maybe carnival isn't the right word but it's the word that came to mind at the moment. "Fair" maybe?

I think is a great idea, however the Church wants to reach MILLIONS of people across the US and outside the US (where these ads are also shown through cable). Fairs won't be able to accomplish this task effectively.

I just think spending the money to DO something for others- put the gospel in action, actually allow people to work with, talk with, meet real live Latter Day Saints might be a better way to "promote" ourselves if this is the objective we're after, rather than just putting a pretty face on TV.

And that's why as Latter Day Saints we are encouraged to be an example to others by giving unselfish service to those around us and we should do it because that's what Christ told us to do when he was on the Earth and not for the purpose of promoting ourselves. The only reason the Church uses technology is because it works! The Church has an amazing team of specialists on this field.

I think your ideas are great but won't reach the amount of people the Church wants to reach.

[pam]

BTW Suzie..I disagree with you. As my daughter would say...jk jk jk jk

[carlimac]

I see wisdom in the Church's ads. They are trying to portray Mormons as normal everyday people. Why would anyone dislike or mistrust normal everyday people? It is a simple message and hopefully will be effective.

I don't know why but the ads seem to be bothering a whole lot of people.

[carlimac]

"I think is a great idea, however the Church wants to reach MILLIONS of people across the US and outside the US (where these ads are also shown through cable). Fairs won't be able to accomplish this task effectively."

(Quote from Suzie)

It's true that the church can reach more through TV and cable than local community fairs. The church has done some awesome ads in the past. Very professionally produced and non-threatening. They were general messages that were "feel good", and inspiring and easy to relate to. Who can argue with the messages like " spending time with family is important" (the dad that got kidnapped by his kids to go camping) and "take time to listen to your kids" ( the little girl who has to talk to the dog cause no one else will listen to her).

But these new ads seem to be...I don't know ... perhaps just too focused on what cool people we think we are rather than what a cool message we have about the restored Gospel in the latter days. Is how neat we are really the message we want spread to millions of people?

As a member of the church, they are fun to watch. I think, wow what interesting people. Gosh I didn't know this professional surfer was a member of the church. She's great! And that artist mom is so talented and I'd love to have her as my neighbor or better yet- my visiting teacher.

But then I look at the ads through the eyes of people who have vaguely heard of the Mormons and I can see how they would be saying, " What's the point?" or "Why does it matter if she's a Mormon?" What if these ads were put on by Baptists or Jehovah's Witnesses or any other religion. Wouldn't you be at least slightly annoyed or puzzled? I'd be thinking- " So you're Buddhist or a Sun worshipper or a Wickan. Why are you telling me this on national TV? What are you trying to sell me?"

So Pam and anyone else who wonders, I haven't changed my stance at all about the ads. I personally enjoy them. Of course- I'm a Mormon myself. What's not to like? ;-) But I feel embarrassed for the Church and this particular tactic when I read comments and posts on a variety of media websites that scream "Get this **** off the air!"

Edited August 16, 2010 by carlimac

[Wingnut]

But these new ads seem to be...I don't know ... perhaps just too focused on what cool people we think we are rather than what a cool message we have about the restored Gospel in the latter days. Is how neat we are really the message we want spread to millions of people?

Many people still think of Mormons as an unknown group, or those weird people who all live in Utah, or the racist bigamists. In many cases, the message in these ads are what needs to be spread in order to get them to open up to hearing the Gospel message.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Wingnut
awkward wording

[carlimac]

For many people, they still think of Mormons as an unknown group, or those weird people who all live in Utah, or the racist bigamists. In many cases, the message in these ads are what needs to be spread in order to get them to open up to hearing the Gospel message.

You're right. And for some who have no frame of reference other than the negative it will be an eye opener and hopefully a positive introduction. But I'm a bit skeptical. I'm mostly concerned that for a huge number of people who already know who the Mormons are and feel pestered by the missionaries or take issue with anything we stand for, the ads will be something to further antagonize them. (Heaven forbid my son's old girlfriend's Lutheran mother sees them- I can just hear the ranting now.)

I suppose the people who hate the church will continue to hate us regardless. But it's the fence sitters- those who are presently neutral towards the church who don't have an opinion either way but start to hear the angry ranting (that seems to be so much louder than any praise we ever hear) and the rumors and lies that go viral on the internet, who may be swayed toward mistrusting or even hating us. Maybe that's the risk we take. But I just feel there are much less riskier ways of getting ourselves known.

Oh well. Looks like I'm in the minority around here. What's new?

[carlimac]

A carnival? You're not really serious, are you? What does a carnival have to with either doctrine or the LDS culture or the people part of it? Absolutely nothing. The Church does temple open houses that welcome the public. This ad campaign is aimed at showing people that Mormons are similar to them -- everyday normal folk. People don't go around looking for carnivals to happen, and even if they did, many might not get near enough to find out that it's free. In order to make it known that it was free, as you suggest (which would be a really expensive yet highly ineffective undertaking), they'd have to -- gasp! -- advertise!!! Additionally, a carnival would only have a minor, local effect. A widespread ad campaign like this affects many more people -- who might not go to a carnival -- for the same cost.

And flyers? This isn't junior high. Though it's worth noting that pass-along cards are a comparable concept.

Wish I could thank this post twice!

carlimac, to be blunt, if you don't like the comments on "the blogs," don't read them!

This felt like a personal attack or at the least, a response meant to make me feel stupid.

[carlimac]

Followed by this:

Someone else mentioned how the ads should be about the Atonement etc. Somehow atonement and carnival don't seem to go together. :)

And Wingnut laughing and Suzie thanking you. A little gang mentality going on there. But it's cool. No problem.

Pam- you are mostly very kind in your responses. But can I ask... why the alarmed gingerbread man? When I see it I always get the impression that you are alarmed by the post or the poster or the topic or something. Is there something significant about that picture? Sorry to hurt your feelings. Wasn't trying to flame you. I hope you weren't trying to flame me either with your little atonement/carnival comment.

And by the way, I didn't say I thought the ads were to pave the way for Mitt Romney. I said "some people" think they are. Many of these websites have come to that conclusion. I'm getting this info off Mormon Life - What They're Saying About "Us" if you're interested in taking a look.

Have a nice week everyone. I think this topic has run it's course. Might as well close it before any more feelings get hurt.

Edited August 16, 2010 by carlimac

[Moksha]

But I feel embarrassed for the Church and this particular tactic when I read comments and posts on a variety of media websites that scream "Get this **** off the air!"

Most of us are not in the nine test market cities, so were are unaware of the feedback. What precisely do they not like and are there any quotes that do not require an asterisks?

[dahlia]

Stereotypes go both ways and I think it's brilliant to try and correct some of them.

I agree. For those who have little exposure to the LDS, I think the ads go a long way to informing how the church thinks about certain topics. Personally, I find them just good PSAs - be a good parent, be honest, pay attention to your friends, etc. Nothing wrong with getting a dose of those messages now and then, no matter what your religion.

As to the original post, you don't have to go to YouTube to see some vile comments. I am on a conservative message board that just has me shocked with how nasty, ignorant, and just plain hateful members are toward anything Mormon that's posted. Of course, these members will say they are 'good Christians,' but, man, I don't know any Christianity as hateful as what I see online. Being the person that I am, the more hate I read, the more I wanted to learn about Mormons, so here I am.

I think there must be something about some of the fundamentalist churches. These people go off on Catholics and Jews as well, but I think the real hate is reserved for the LDS. I've never seen anything like it.

[Suzie]

But can I ask... why the alarmed gingerbread man? When I see it I always get the impression that you are alarmed by the post or the poster or the topic or something. Is there something significant about that picture? Sorry to hurt your feelings. Wasn't trying to flame you. I hope you weren't trying to flame me either with your little atonement/carnival comment.

Hi Carlimac. I think you may be a little over sensitive. From your comment about a "gang" mentality, thinking someone attacked you because they told you not to read the blogs if they bother you, and now "reading" into a gingerbread cookie avatar, it's a bit too much don't you think?

A discussion forum is what it is. There are people who will agree with you and others disagree. I had my share here as well with a poster or two and nobody "made me" feel in any particular way. I chose to feel the way I wanted at that time (and it was more funny to me than anything else) I cannot speak for Pam (she is free to correct me) but I don't think she was hurt, I think it was you who got your feelings hurt because you are perceiving a personal attack where there is none.

I think you make some valid points about the ads, unfortunately the Church as a whole will not be able to avoid the negative stereotypes overnight and we need to be realistic and understand not everyone will feel about the Church in the same way regardless of ads.

This "new" approach is a smart move IMO because a LOT of people truly think we are somewhat "religious fanatics" and even though there are those in the Church, we also have a variety of people from all races and backgrounds.

Maybe we are seeing this in a total different perspective and it's okay to agree to disagree sometimes. :)

[Matthew0059]

Can we all join together and sing "kumbayah" together? Maybe we all can bury the hatchet, say "I'm sorry" and start over?

Carlimac, I agree that it hurts A LOT to see people denigrating the Church. But that's a condition of the days we live in- no matter WHAT we do, there will be people trying to tear us down because they hate us and CHRIST whom we represent and testify of. Darned if you do, darned if you don't- because they hate who we ARE, not always what we DO.

I empathize with you, friend, and hope that you find peace. I encourage you to counteract your current feelings by renewing emphasis on studying the scriptures and words of the living prophets. You will find solace.

[MichaelCraig]

They are trying to portray Mormons as normal everyday people.

Wha??? When my oldest son joined the church a few years back I looked hard into the church. I visited many times going with him to witness baptisms and to regular church services. I was invited to the Bishops house on several occasions, one I remember most was to celebrate one of the girls birthdays which was a killer pool party. Had a blast. If there is one single word I would call any and all Mormons I've met so far it would be "normal". The biggest thing or turn off I've witnessed that I feel, as a non-member, would help in a commercial or in any attemp to make people who are not members be more attracted to the church it would be to try and get away from the "us/them" mentality. Along with the "us/them" thing comes words to call us and them. The second you put a word on a living breathing person you instantly turn them from a live human being, into a thing. I'm not just a thing. We all have many things in common. We all hurt. We all are looking for truth. We all need Jesus Christ. I'm sorry that I don't have all of the answers how to fix the "us/them" thing but I do everything in my power as a non-member when I hear other non-members saying crazy stuff about people of Mormon faith to stop and look into the church personally, and I don't mean just on the dumb internet. Go meet them. Talk to them. Get to know them, then they'll see. Maybe the add is like that. Sorry, I haven't actually seen it yet. If it is like that then........never mind. Edited August 16, 2010 by MichaelCraig

[Guest]

If you want to see the ads, just go to mormon.org.

Yeah, Carlimac, I can kinda see your point. I saw the ads online and thought... hmm... this is different. But, I see now where the Church is going with this.

I lurked for a few weeks at the Catholic forum and man, you should see what they say about Mormons! I was pretty disappointed by their membership. I kinda feel good to know that if those kinds of comments were made in THIS forum against the Catholics, I'm sure Pam or PC or any of our great moderators will shut it down very fast.

So yeah, the ads are great for letting the world know about who we are. But, I think that we, as members, are still going to be the BEST way to show the world who we are by our own actions and community involvement.