Interesting Question, somewhat chastity related

[zx10]

Hello, I have a friend who has a differing option from me. I'm not sure if it is solely a question of option or if it has to do with morality and if there is a right/wrong to it...

For explanation purposes, i'm a male and my friend is female. We're also seriously dating and talking about marriage.

Over the phone, she told me that when she or her sister takes a bath, a lot of the time there's a conversation party in the bathroom including the two sisters and their mom. The situation goes where one is taking a bath, and the other 2 are just sitting in the bathroom and they're all talking. No curtain in the tub is pulled, so whoever is in the bath is exposed to the other two. I told her i didn't think this was right, and had a problem with it. Not much else was discussed because she got reserved, defensive and didn't want to talk about it. In my view, i dont think you should expose yourself to anyone unless it's a legitimate reason (doctors visit, or when two people are married). I can understand if her and her sister were kids, but they're both in their 20's. I know they're not exposing themselves for the sake of it, or a 'look at me' type of deal. But it bugs me that no curtain is drawn. I just have an uneasy feeling about the whole situation.

So above is the situation. My question lies if there's a morally right/wrong to it, or if mine and her options are just opinions, nothing wrong or no changes needed to be made. I'm asking because if it's not a moral issue, i dont want to press the subject. Any advice?? Thank you!!!

[MarginOfError]

Hello, I have a friend who has a differing option from me. I'm not sure if it is solely a question of option or if it has to do with morality and if there is a right/wrong to it...

For explanation purposes, i'm a male and my friend is female. We're also seriously dating and talking about marriage.

Over the phone, she told me that when she or her sister takes a bath, a lot of the time there's a conversation party in the bathroom including the two sisters and their mom. The situation goes where one is taking a bath, and the other 2 are just sitting in the bathroom and they're all talking. No curtain in the tub is pulled, so whoever is in the bath is exposed to the other two. I told her i didn't think this was right, and had a problem with it. Not much else was discussed because she got reserved, defensive and didn't want to talk about it. In my view, i dont think you should expose yourself to anyone unless it's a legitimate reason (doctors visit, or when two people are married). I can understand if her and her sister were kids, but they're both in their 20's. I know they're not exposing themselves for the sake of it, or a 'look at me' type of deal. But it bugs me that no curtain is drawn. I just have an uneasy feeling about the whole situation.

So above is the situation. My question lies if there's a morally right/wrong to it, or if mine and her options are just opinions, nothing wrong or no changes needed to be made. I'm asking because if it's not a moral issue, i dont want to press the subject. Any advice?? Thank you!!!

I see nothing wrong with it. And I see no issue with the law of chastity here.

[Dravin]

I see nothing wrong with it. And I see no issue with the law of chastity here.

Unless I'm mistaken for a time the Deseret Gym had a no swimsuit policy for the swimming pool. It was segregated, but so is the environment described in the OP.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Dravin

[mnn727]

While I personally think its a tiny bit strange, I see no Church rules being broken and no harm that could come of it since its all females and all related.

Thats not how we did things in our household though.

[Mute]

This isn't a common practice among family members that age but how is this so different from when people take showers in the military or gym etc. These showers do not have stalls or curtains many times and people still converse with one another.

[ozzy]

I personally am uncomfortable in similar situations, but that doesn't mean its against the law of chastity or that there is anything wrong here. After all, the Provo MTC had the tree of life at one time (If anyone doesn't know what that is, it is basically a set of shower heads coming off of a single poll. There are generally no curtains). Beside that, the situation Mute describes is present even in the BYUI gym which we all know the reputation the BYU schools have for their strict interpretations of what is and isn't right.

[Guest mysticmorini]

My reaction to the situation above would be that as long as there is no intimate physical contact, the law of chastity has not been broken.

as for the broader question about morally acceptable behavior, I would say that one could argue that this may be slightly inappropriate. i however would not agree with that argument.

If i were you, I would apologize for overreacting and not discuss the situation any further.

[ryanh]

There is a wide range of what is considered normal, and it varies from family to family. What you describe is not unheard of, but is on the more "open" side. It's not wrong, just different from how you grew up.

Reminds me of the MTC. All the showers in the men's side was were either along a wall, or a center post with five or six shower heads surrounding it. Hummm. . . . so was the MTC promoting breaking of the LoC? I think not!

In my mind, it's far less of a big deal among family members than among virtual strangers in a large group at the MTC!!!

zx10, I think you should be grateful that your girlfriend’s family has raised her to be comfortable about her body, and I think you would do well to be accepting and open to the fact that others are raised differently from you. Don't offend over something so small and inconsequential. Do apologize for calling into question her morality, and offending her (as evidenced by her clamming up). But, don’t worry about openness in a family – it’s not at all an issue.

[Seminarysnoozer]

My reaction to the situation above would be that as long as there is no intimate physical contact, the law of chastity has not been broken.

as for the broader question about morally acceptable behavior, I would say that one could argue that this may be slightly inappropriate. i however would not agree with that argument.

If i were you, I would apologize for overreacting and not discuss the situation any further.

I agree with Mysticmorini's response. Your friend will not feel good about having to conserve her intimacy with her family in order to have a relationship with you. What if she were to say something like "I don't want you to wrestle with your dad because there is too much contact there."

I would think that you would be happy to part of a family that is so close. On the other hand, if that is a big issue for you then it is good to talk about it now over latter because it may be that you are not a good match.

[applepansy]

I see no moral issue here. I also remembered the Deseret Gym when I read the OP. The women were more likely to cover up in their locker room. But I remember a discussion about it between my parents years ago.

zx10, you might want to bring this subject up again and explain that the discussion is for clarification not judgment. Your reaction was strong enough to shut down the dialogue. It will take some humility to open it back up.

We all come from different family backgrounds. Nudity within a family isn't always a morality issue. There are other discussions on similar subjects. You might want to read through them. My stance has always been to cover up, especially with the opposite sex. When my children were young they bathed together until they were old enough to start noticing differences. When I was growing up I remember situations such as you describe... Mom or sister in the tub and a discussion going on. Mom often complained that the bathroom was Grand Central Station. :) When I became a mom I understood why.

[NeuroTypical]

Hey zx10

Girls are different than boys. They can do this stuff and not be bugged by it.

If you have evidence there is incest going on in their home, you might want to reconsider marrying someone who figures incest is ok. But if that's not happening (and it sounds like it isn't), drop it. Forever.

LM

[martybess]

There is nothing wrong with this. If you live in other parts of the world it's common. I have taken many, many sauna with my father in-law who is a full blooded Finn. I don't feel funny at all though I did 30 years ago. You sit and talk and it's a bonding time. Nothing immoral about it. I have even gone with him while in Finland to public ones. (New years day everyone goes). Last time I was in Finland and was staying at a hotel and I saw to gentlemen outside the hotel who had just came out from the sauna who had nothing on but a loose robe. (Standing outside the hotel!) I looked at my wife rolled my eyes and said you Finns, see said get over it. It was a busy street and now one even blinked an eye.

[Gwen]

i have nothing new to add. nothing wrong with it. kids naturally go through a privacy stage where they push everyone out to avoid being seen. they obviously were close enough that that never happened.

if i had to guess it started as kids when the girls bathed together and mom would sit in there to make sure no one drowned. they would talk. it became a very close conversational bonding time for them. and yes most women need conversation to bond. as they got to big to share a tub they would still hang out and chat during that time.

i think you should apologize for being judgmental. but don't never bring it up again. that's silly. explain to her how things are done in your home. let her know you are not as comfortable with your body (that's important if you get married and want to have sex with her.) if you get married she will likely continue such practices with your kids. you don't want to wait for such critical times to have this issue come up again. talk it out and work though that now.

this is a great test for your relationship. will set the ground rules for how a lot of other things are handled later on. don't miss it.

[Wingnut]

After all, the Provo MTC had the tree of life at one time (If anyone doesn't know what that is, it is basically a set of shower heads coming off of a single poll. There are generally no curtains).

The women's dorms have individual showers with curtains, but still a public room.

zx10, I think you should be grateful that your girlfriend’s family has raised her to be comfortable about her body,

The the OP, if you do marry this girl, this part could really be a bonus for you. A woman who is comfortable with her body and in her body may be (not necessarily will be) more sexually expressive and free once she decides to give herself to someone.

[MarginOfError]

The women's dorms have individual showers with curtains, but still a public room.

Wow! So the church thinks it's okay for men to see each other naked, but not for women! Learning this among all of the recent post-conference craziness has me really confused now.

[zx10]

Thanks everyone for your comments! It's helped me to better understand her and know I don't need to get uptight about the subject. I later talked to her, apologized for coming off so strong, and asked if we could come to an understanding. We talked a little more about it and everything is fine now. :)

[Traveler]

I do not see a big problem in the setting that has been discussed. However, I would add one other thought concerning the marriage covenant. That is that once a marriage covenant has been enter into that a husband and wife should “cleave” unto each other and none else. I believe that following a marriage that the “desires” of a husband and wife should be to each other.

I am not saying that the bathroom situation should never again occur – I am saying that it should be viewed differently after marriage and understood to be not necessary at all for maintaining the love and bonding of one’s pre-marriage family.

The Traveler

[Gwen]

assuming after marriage they live together and not with the pre-marriage family then obviously they would not do that very often anymore. but i really don't see an issue if the sister comes to visit on occasion and she hangs out in the bathroom for some for old times sister boding conversation. women that are that close to their sisters will always need their sisters.

obviously wouldn't want the sis to hang out in the bathroom during some husband/wife bonding tub time. but i wouldn't expect her to request such given it sounds like for her it was a girl thing in their house, their no boys allowed moment of privacy.

[Guest]

I guess you've never been to Japan.

[Traveler]

I guess you've never been to Japan.

I have been to Japan and embarrassed beyond belief for more things than I want to talk about. Public baths are not cool – period - and my recommendation; don’t experiment with buttons on their toilets.

The Traveler