No place for me in the Church

[Caleb32]

I am divorced, less active, and 34. My faith in God is shaky at best, but I would like to come back to Church, but don’t feel like I fit in anywhere. Although I have lost my faith, I have still managed to hold fast to a code of high ethics and morals. I have a desire to rekindle my faith, but realize it is difficult to do alone.

I am very fit and active and love competitive or adventurous activities. I am well traveled, very successful in my career, and active in my community. By most standards, I am admired, respected and valued. It is very different, however, in the LDS culture.

Overall, I just don’t fit into any ward. Don’t get me wrong, I am not looking to date, I am just looking for friends I can relate to, have fun with, and bond. Through forming relationships with people I trust and relate to, I hope to resolve certain concerns I have with the LDS religion I was once a part of.

I can’t really fault anyone for trying; several LDS people have attempted to befriend me and to relate to me to no avail. Let’s face it, a married man my age with several kids just doesn’t have the time ot enjoy the same recreational activities I like. For example, I play hockey, softball, tennis, ski, fish, kayak, and compete in triathlons. I would like to participate in activities in my ward, but they are all geared for families. Perhaps I would be able to connect better with people in the singles ward, but there is an age limit of 31.

Almost all of my true friends are non-LDS and many of them are younger than me due to the activities I engage in. Because I am in better shape and have a youthfull appearance I am often mistaken for being younger than many of my friends in their mid 20s. Therefore, age is never an issue. I suppose I don’t get the whole age limit thing for the singles ward here.

As a result, I’ve started going to a Presbyterian Church my buddy invited me too. There are actually loads of people similar to myself there, and I feel welcome and respected every time I interact with the members of this Church. I’d like to reconnect with my LDS roots, but feel like there in no place in the LDS Church for someone in my demographic. What are your thoughts?

[NeuroTypical]

I hope to resolve certain concerns I have with the LDS religion I was once a part of.

We might be able to help you with that one, but not sure what good I can do on the rest of it, besides mention that we have numerous divorced single guys in my ward. Two bishops ago, we even had a divorced bishop.

Welcome to the site.

[Backroads]

I think this is where sites like staylds come into play...

[mrmarklin]

Clearly there is a social element to the Church that you would like to reach out to, but doesn't seem to be there.

I've had this problem all my life as well, and in fact can state that ALL my friends with whom I socialize are non-members. For some reason I have never connected with any church members. I'm a little bit of a maverick and iconoclast, and conforming is very big in the church circles that I have known.

I am married, and my wife is the opposite. All her friends were met in the church.

Before I ws married (but I married young) I just kept going to church, and met my wife in church. Even then however, I felt the same as you do. One of the reasons I married my wife is that she was more social than me, but it really hasn't helped me with friendships in the church.

The church is true, so you owe it to yourself to keep trying.

[Guest]

What's wrong with going to the LDS church and hanging out with your Presbyterian friends? Nothing. You go to Church for the truthfullness of the restored gospel. You go kayaking because it's fun. One doesn't have to tie them so tightly together.

[captmoroniRM]

Sure there is a place for you in the Church. The problem seems that you need to make a place for the Church in your life. Can it be hard for someone in your situation? Definitely. Will it require sacrifices? Yes.

Perhaps you need to step back for a second and think about what is it you are wanting out of the Church. If you are just looking for a compatible social setting, you might need to rethink your priorities. While it is great to have friends in the ward and members to hang out with on a regular basis, but the reason we go to Church is to worship God and learn more about his ways, so we can make them our own.

Also, be active about finding friends. The way you described your situation was very passive. Go out of your way to try and meet new people. Forget about the things that might make you seem out of place and seek to be an influence for good in the lives of those around you.

Try taking the time to study your scriptures. Experience tells me that someone in your shoes hasn't cracked open his scriptures in a while. I challenge you to read them, and pray to your Heavenly Father and seek his guidance on what you should do. Seek his help for finding your place in Church. Heavenly Father would guide you better than any one of us here on this board. He actually knows you, the trials you may be facing. He knows your heart and your needs and will help you through anything.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I'm in the same boat roughly. I've had periods when there was no one of real interest in my Ward that I felt like naturally bonding with. Either the conversation was dry, or they were in a different phase of life, etcetera.

I would suggest what Anatess said -- hang out with your Presbyterian friends for fun, and attend the LDS Church to share your considerable talents with others. Offer to head up a fishing activity for the youth or some activity they haven't done before to expose them to it. I got a real kick out of taking the youth on canoe trips -- youth in an inner city Ward where most of them never had a chance to do much than free activities around their home.

I remember when I was released when our Bishop said "Brother Mormonmusic, these kids will never forget you!". It was a very meaningful, satisfying use of my time.

Lately I've taken to teaching an underpriviledged kid how to play the ukelele, and also training some yound adults and a youth how to play in a professional band. They have learned to set up their guitars, how to play solidly, and how to use two guitars in such a way they enhance the sound. Plus I found them a paying gig. It was fun and they loved it -- focus on sharing your talents with others. It can be very satisfying and quickly intergrate you into the Ward again.

The other thing I did was get involved in a non-Church group for social reasons a while ago. It went really well and they became my close friends. Church was for spirituality and service, the non-member group were my close friends.

[Caleb32]

The whole purpose I would like to connect with one or several members in the Church is that I have some deep seeded issues with the Church. I’ve tried to talk to some members (such as the Bishop) about my concerns, but found they had a lack of understanding, empathy, and often times jumped to conclusions or just took offense. True friends that you connect with don’t do that. With true friends, they know when their friends open up to them that they are being sincere. I have some really good friendships, but all of them are with non-members. With me, these connections always began with engaging in activities of common interests—spending the weekend with a buddy on a fishing trip, spending the afternoon on the golf course, or during a weekend hockey or softball tournament.

Unfortunately, in my experience, there are more people like captmoroniRM in the church than those like mrmarklin and mormonmusic. I actually laughed really hard when I read captmoroniRM post. Only in the LDS Church would someone tell someone they know very little about that their problem is that they are not reading their scriptures or praying enough—regardless of the concern they voice. I know that was the default answer to every primary question, but come on. On the other hand, I really appreciated mormonmusic’s advice.

[FunkyTown]

Unfortunately, in my experience, there are more people like captmoroniRM in the church than those like mrmarklin and mormonmusic. I actually laughed really hard when I read captmoroniRM post. Only in the LDS Church would someone tell someone they know very little about that their problem is that they are not reading their scriptures or praying enough—regardless of the concern they voice. I know that was the default answer to every primary question, but come on. On the other hand, I really appreciated mormonmusic’s advice.

This is the internet. You get what you pay for.

I've read that it takes, on average for someone to go from 'stranger' to 'friend' about 2 years. Have you spent 2 solid years at church meeting people?

People are busy. I've had this problem, too. It can get lonely, but the church is the truth. What can you do? If you want to make friends, it'll take a concerted effort on your part and nothing anyone else does will make a difference.

[rameumptom]

If you are fit, competitive and adventurous, join the local ward's sports program. Or ask to assist with the Boy Scout campouts, merit badges, etc. Find the areas of the Church that work for you, where you do fit in, and start there.

[Suzie]

The whole purpose I would like to connect with one or several members in the Church is that I have some deep seeded issues with the Church. I’ve tried to talk to some members (such as the Bishop) about my concerns, but found they had a lack of understanding, empathy, and often times jumped to conclusions or just took offense.

Hi Caleb, please feel free to post your concerns. I would love to be able to help (in a small way if I can) with the issues you have and I know there are quite few members here who would do the same. Unfortunately, you are right, people jump into conclusions and make all sort of assumptions because that's human nature, please do not be discouraged and feel free to post your concerns, I'll look forward to read them and see if I could help answering them. All the best. :)

[mrmarklin]

No question but that social interaction is a very important part of the church experience.

This is the internet, and I think that you can get a lot of your questions answered right here! There is a lot of knowledge on this forum, and while I certainly haven't agreed with all opinions, there's enough here that is thought provoking and non-judgemental that it can be very useful to bounce ideas off of.

[Caleb32]

Many of you may have heard that only 6 percent of Mormons who marry in a temple ceremony subsequently go through a temple divorce. However, this often quoted statistic is misleading for the following two reasons. First, most temple married Mormons divorce through a civil ceremony to avoid the rather complex temple cancellation procedures. Second, some Mormons marry in a temple ceremony, divorce in a civil procedure and subsequently remarry in a second temple ceremony—thus reducing the apparent divorce rate.

Overall, the Mormon divorce rate appears to be no different from the average American divorce rate of approximately 25 percent. Although Mormons marrying inside their faith are much less likely to become divorced, Mormons who marry outside their religion are second only to Jews in divorce—with a divorce rate of 40 percent. One might speculate that the religious and cultural differences between Mormons and non-Mormons are so great that the chances of a successful marriage are much reduced.

So, when I visit my local ward, shouldn’t I expect to see roughly 20 to 25 percent of the active members amongst the divorce population? In reality, nobody out of the hundreds who attend every Sunday is divorced. In fact, I would say that over 95 percent of the active church goers are married in my local ward in Texas. Do divorced LDS men and women feel welcome or like they belong? If not, shouldn’t we ask ourselves why or what can be done?

As far as my concerns, they are not simplistic in nature. They deal with things I’ve done significant research into and pondered about, and discussed with many people over many years. I’ve tried discussing them with Church leaders, home teachers, and the like. I’m very familiar with all the standard answers and the not so standard ones you will find from Mormon apologist or scholars. What I’ve found lacking in all of my many conversations with LDS members is true friendship. People who are willing to really listen to what I have to say without pre-judging or becoming defensive. Originally, I thought I could share my sincere feelings and concerns with my spouse, but that only ended in divorce and sadness—as she could not handle being married to someone who was not the stalwart member she thought that she originally married. True friends love you despite your weaknesses (especially when your desire is to overcome them).

I actually disagree with FunkyTown. Forming deep connections with people can occur very quickly. It has happened several times in my life. Recently, I read I book about the science of forming instant connections called “Click”. It was very intriguing. Anyway, I don’t know why I am even writing this on this board, it only seems that MormonMusic understood what I’ve been trying to say.

[Suzie]

As far as my concerns, they are not simplistic in nature. They deal with things I’ve done significant research into and pondered about, and discussed with many people over many years. I’ve tried discussing them with Church leaders, home teachers, and the like. I’m very familiar with all the standard answers and the not so standard ones you will find from Mormon apologist or scholars. What I’ve found lacking in all of my many conversations with LDS members is true friendship. People who are willing to really listen to what I have to say without pre-judging or becoming defensive.

Well, all I can is that you can give it a try and see how it works here. :) You never know who you will meet or what type of answer you may receive. Take Care.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I too would be interested in hearing your concerns, whether here or in other contexts. I have been strengthened by others who give non-Standard Mormon Answers, and who also are not apologists. Neither standard answers nor apologist commentary were satisfying for me, but I was able to find peace with my religion and the incredibly Mormon life I had woven since my decision to be LDS as an impressionable and naiive young adult (my wife, in-laws, and now children are all dedicated Mormons). I have also had to deal with a wife who is disappointed if I share doubts or concerns about the Church. But I have learned to survive happily in a traditional believing Mormon culture as a non-traditional believer since my third and most recent trial of faith.

Edited January 6, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Guest]

Many of you may have heard that only 6 percent of Mormons who marry in a temple ceremony subsequently go through a temple divorce. However, this often quoted statistic is misleading for the following two reasons. First, most temple married Mormons divorce through a civil ceremony to avoid the rather complex temple cancellation procedures. Second, some Mormons marry in a temple ceremony, divorce in a civil procedure and subsequently remarry in a second temple ceremony—thus reducing the apparent divorce rate.

Overall, the Mormon divorce rate appears to be no different from the average American divorce rate of approximately 25 percent. Although Mormons marrying inside their faith are much less likely to become divorced, Mormons who marry outside their religion are second only to Jews in divorce—with a divorce rate of 40 percent. One might speculate that the religious and cultural differences between Mormons and non-Mormons are so great that the chances of a successful marriage are much reduced.

So, when I visit my local ward, shouldn’t I expect to see roughly 20 to 25 percent of the active members amongst the divorce population? In reality, nobody out of the hundreds who attend every Sunday is divorced. In fact, I would say that over 95 percent of the active church goers are married in my local ward in Texas. Do divorced LDS men and women feel welcome or like they belong? If not, shouldn’t we ask ourselves why or what can be done?

As far as my concerns, they are not simplistic in nature. They deal with things I’ve done significant research into and pondered about, and discussed with many people over many years. I’ve tried discussing them with Church leaders, home teachers, and the like. I’m very familiar with all the standard answers and the not so standard ones you will find from Mormon apologist or scholars. What I’ve found lacking in all of my many conversations with LDS members is true friendship. People who are willing to really listen to what I have to say without pre-judging or becoming defensive. Originally, I thought I could share my sincere feelings and concerns with my spouse, but that only ended in divorce and sadness—as she could not handle being married to someone who was not the stalwart member she thought that she originally married. True friends love you despite your weaknesses (especially when your desire is to overcome them).

I actually disagree with FunkyTown. Forming deep connections with people can occur very quickly. It has happened several times in my life. Recently, I read I book about the science of forming instant connections called “Click”. It was very intriguing. Anyway, I don’t know why I am even writing this on this board, it only seems that MormonMusic understood what I’ve been trying to say.

In my ward, we have a few divorced couples who have remarried and divorcees who are still single - both men and women, with kids. I don't know if there are divorcees without kids. I don't know if the single members of our ward have been divorced before.

They are all treated like everybody else. But, in my ward, we have cliques. There are several big families of 4 generations in the ward which pretty much form their own groups. Then we have transients from the Navy.

So, yeah, my ward is pretty much what you would see in any group of people. I don't have a single "deep friendship" in the ward besides my husband although, I have a lot of good friends there. My best friends are in the Catholic church (people I grew up with) or non-church-goers - most of whom are half-way around the world. When I have doctrinal questions, I ask my husband. Or the missionaries. Or lds.net. Or do my own research. I hang out mostly with my husband and kids. So yeah, if you were in my ward, I probably won't have time to hang out with you either. If I'm troubled and I need that somebody who will let me vent without judgment and knock some sense into me if necessary, I make the phone call to the Philippines.

What I'm trying to say is - there's nothing special about the ward when it comes to friendships - it is just like any other place on the planet - you may meet somebody who "clicks" but that's not necessarily due to the fact that they're Mormon.

Did that make sense?

Edited January 6, 2011 by anatess

[Guest mormonmusic]

I agree with Anatess -- we have some divorced folks in our Ward too, but the Ward isn't really where I have my friendships. I do my bonding and meaninful, personal discussion on the phone to a friend I met in a Ward 20 years ago.

There is no question that people who deviate from the mainstream -- married, with kids -- often tend to find themselves feeling partly as you do. There is the Single Adult organization, however, where you get a higher concentration of people who are in similar life situations as yourself. I just did a New Year's Dance for that group and they had a blast judging by how crowded the dance floor was and how enthusiastic they were there. In our region, they hold dances and activities and people come from all over the Region -- have you tried that organization as a place to meet people and create friendships?

I've found you can have fulfilling relationships with people in the Church without having to confront many doctrinal issues. So, finding the social activities for your age group may be something to consider if you haven't already tried that.

Edited January 6, 2011 by mormonmusic

[bcguy]

What you need is a very compasionate bishop who is non judgmental.

[bert10]

While respect is good for the Ego...humiliation is good for the Spirit. The Christian will respect you yet you know that it is written that God is no respecter of person.

Even they teach this that God is not a respecter of person...but in their lives they value respect and honors more than humiliation....even their pastors are called Doctor because of the piece of paper their churches issue them. They are inconsistent with the revealed words of GOD.

I believe if you do not lose sight of the LDS teachings you can still associate with them and go to their churches. It is not what we do without that really counts...it is what we do within. The kingdom of GOD is within us.

Is there any chance of reconciliation with your former wife? Though you may be divorced by earthly standard it may not be so in heaven. That is for you to find out. I am not judging you here. However, my feelings are if you do seek another relationship and your activities do not become family centered then you are doomed to have a repeat performance of your first divorce.

LDS activities even works are for promoting Spirituality in individuals. This becomes lost on many as they view activities and callings for other purposes. I can understand your feeling that there is no place for you there. I often feel it too myself. Everyone is so busy with callings and family and all. However, I do not let it stop me from pursuing in my asking and seeking and knocking. Remember the kingdom of GOD is within and it is our responsibility to reach it.

Nevertheless, the Christian way is a lot more rockier Spiritually then the LDS way: because of their many errors in understanding their scriptures. A good rule of thumb is: the rockier the road appears to be in the flesh...the easier the way is for the Spirit. The easier is the way of the flesh the more rocky is the way of the Spirit.

The Lord gave the LDS a heavy burden and it is for their own good and the burden is for the cleansing of our Spirit. Just be aware that the LDS and the Christians are opposite in their view point concerning many things. IF you always seek internally for your guidance then you will remove being deceived by other men. If is one less thing that you not need to worry about. And if you do listen to the wrong voice....so what? The fruits will manifest themselves in your life and if they are bitter then you can keep searching until you recognize the voice of truth. And then all your fruits will become sweet in your life.

bert10

I am divorced, less active, and 34. My faith in God is shaky at best, but I would like to come back to Church, but don’t feel like I fit in anywhere. Although I have lost my faith, I have still managed to hold fast to a code of high ethics and morals. I have a desire to rekindle my faith, but realize it is difficult to do alone.

I am very fit and active and love competitive or adventurous activities. I am well traveled, very successful in my career, and active in my community. By most standards, I am admired, respected and valued. It is very different, however, in the LDS culture.

Overall, I just don’t fit into any ward. Don’t get me wrong, I am not looking to date, I am just looking for friends I can relate to, have fun with, and bond. Through forming relationships with people I trust and relate to, I hope to resolve certain concerns I have with the LDS religion I was once a part of.

I can’t really fault anyone for trying; several LDS people have attempted to befriend me and to relate to me to no avail. Let’s face it, a married man my age with several kids just doesn’t have the time ot enjoy the same recreational activities I like. For example, I play hockey, softball, tennis, ski, fish, kayak, and compete in triathlons. I would like to participate in activities in my ward, but they are all geared for families. Perhaps I would be able to connect better with people in the singles ward, but there is an age limit of 31.

Almost all of my true friends are non-LDS and many of them are younger than me due to the activities I engage in. Because I am in better shape and have a youthfull appearance I am often mistaken for being younger than many of my friends in their mid 20s. Therefore, age is never an issue. I suppose I don’t get the whole age limit thing for the singles ward here.

As a result, I’ve started going to a Presbyterian Church my buddy invited me too. There are actually loads of people similar to myself there, and I feel welcome and respected every time I interact with the members of this Church. I’d like to reconnect with my LDS roots, but feel like there in no place in the LDS Church for someone in my demographic. What are your thoughts?

Edited January 10, 2011 by bert10

[jennvan]

Depending on where you are in TX, I can get you hooked up with the mid-singles in your area. They have some great groups going there. That is probably where you will find more people who are like you and willing to engage you in the manner you feel fits for you. Generally mid-singles is for single members of the church 30-45 (age range is different in different areas) and you will find quite a few divorced members there as well. Many of the mid-singles have a similar experience to what you are having in your ward. I would highly encourage you to seek them out. You can PM for more info if you would like.

[JohnnyRudick]

What's wrong with going to the LDS church and hanging out with your Presbyterian friends? Nothing. You go to Church for the truthfullness of the restored gospel. You go kayaking because it's fun. One doesn't have to tie them so tightly together.

For a person struggling with their faith in the Church,

socially attending a Catholic or Protestant church

is "just the thing" for sure:cool:

[HoosierGuy]

I am very fit and active and love competitive or adventurous activities. I am well traveled, very successful in my career, and active in my community. By most standards, I am admired, respected and valued.

You sure do have positive self esteem. Just from that paragraph I want to hang out with you! :)

[JohnnyRudick]

I'm not sure where you got your stats from? Here is another study - done by I think Catholics?

American Religious Survey

pg 15: "As regards currently married adults, the Mormons and Baptists have the highest proportions with 68 and 60 percent respectively, reflecting the emphasis on family values in these traditions....Divorce rates are lowest among Mormons and Jews, traditions known for the emphasis they place on married life and the family. Divorced and separated persons, on the other hand, are most common in the New Religion Movements, other minority religions, and the Pentecostal/Charismatic tradition....One final way to measure commitment to “traditional or normative family values” is to create a combined index of the proportions divorced and cohabiting, whereby those tradition that score lowest are the most familial. The traditions with the lowest percentages on this index are Mormons (11%), Jews (13%) and the Protestant Denominations (13%). Each of these traditions is relatively small in terms of numbers and it might be expected

that conformity with religious and social norms is easier to maintain in a smaller group than a larger one."

Yes, Mormons are very big into the family thing.... I am a convert (hence "changed", so when I first started going to church, I had no family - no spouse, no parents, no aunts/uncles/brothers/sisters - just me :). It was a bit strange, all the lessons on "together forever" were a bit depressing to listen to (to say the least) as I had no one that I was "together forever" with ... then you sit and look around at all the smiling happy fams and it just makes you feel more alone than ever ... I went to church because the Spirit was there, I knew it was true because of spiritual experiences, socially uncomfortable or not - it is God's church... other groups are friendly, entertaining etc. etc. just like movies are fun and entertaining... what is true is not always entertaining or comfortable, but truth is truth, trying to talk yourself into something that deep down you know isn't true... you know when you are running from something, living a lie... anyways, I buckled down and socially uncomfortable as it was, went to the Mormon church, went where my conscience told me to go, walked the walk... Eventually I got married in the temple, now I don't feel quite so estranged as before, I can relate to others with kids because now I have kids too - when in Rome.... so I'm in Rom now, and it's not so bad....

the friendship thing? as members of the church, we are always trying to be on our best behavior, trying to be a good example etc. etc. and that sometimes means that we are not as casual? what is the word... perhaps not as laid back, not as willing to share our struggles - and that leads to different kinds of relationships. I admit that with those in the church I am not as "laid back" with, but I will say this - my friends in the church have made me into a better person, I try and live up to their ideals and it has made me a better person... and when it comes to friends, aren't the best friends the ones who make you a better person?

Beautiful:)

You say the quote was on "Page 15".

Page 15 of what?

This is kind of a personal post I know but

I would like to copy this post to my Facebook wall.

May I?

Later:cool:

[MurphyGal]

Hi, Caleb32

Your post struck home with me because I felt the same way as you, not fitting in. I have been a member for 30 years! And just last Saturday at an event, I had a fleeting thought that I was an outsider. But I quickly realized who planted that thought in my head. The deceiver, Satan. I have no family in the church, except my son.

Try to remember that no matter how strong the family, how many in the family, how righteous and perfect others seem, what level they hold in the church....it all comes down to this one, solitary thing:

Each of us, INDIVIDUALLY, has to gain a testimony by ourselves and each of us INDIVIDUALLY has to work toward our own salvation. When we are in sacrament, we have to realize that each one is there on their own trying to repent, be forgiven and become better. The gosepl and the plan of salvation are up to us as individuals. God won't force us, Jesus won't force us, it is our choice.

So remember, each one is there at church for only one real reason, their own salvation.

Kathy

[dash77]

Caleb:

I hope my comments are helpful.

As someone who looks more at the sociological aspects of life, many times wards are not tolerate to diverse views. Sometimes it is just the business of life. For example, as a father of four, there are times I am guilty of not be more friend like to new members. It’s an honest mistake I make and I need to carve out time to just be a friendly and nice guy at church. However, there seems to be – from my experience only – a non-tolerance at wards when someone has some deeper questions that you re rising. What I have learned, is that most members that I have interacted with, do not come to church to talk about deep question and do not like to even think about deeper questions – they want simply fun and social aspects. So, know it’s not a problem within you and I agree with you that most LDS’s misuse statistics. The problem is simply your values of conversation (e.g., outlining deeper mix-messages in the Church) do not align with the values of most members (e.g., superficial thinking).

What I have found is that friendships develop (sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly) when people have similar convictions and values. I think what might be happening is that your value of wanting to talk about some of these deeper issues is a minority behavior in the church. Hopefully, the Lord will direct you toward a few others who had similar views so there is some true understanding.

I hope I am making sense and hearing you.

Am I makng sense, Caleb?