Salvation by Works or Faith

[Loi13]

I'm not a mormon yet but my father and I are considering joining the church.

I've read some of the BoM, not much I'm afraid to say. :/ Although one verse did sorta nag at me:

"For we labor dilligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23)

So I have 2 questions:

1. Do mormons believe in salvation by grace or works?

2. What does salvation mean for mormons?

[pam]

The second typical explanation goes something like this: The fall of Adam brought two kinds of death into the world—physical death, which is the separation of body and spirit, and spiritual death, which is separation of man from God. The atonement of Christ overcame physical death through the Resurrection. This is salvation by grace because it comes to all men automatically and does not depend on what kinds of lives they have lived. But, if we wish to overcome spiritual death and enter back into God’s presence, we must be obedient to laws and principles. This is exaltation by works. Thus, according to this explanation, we are saved by grace and exalted by works.

*bold is mine*

Salvation: By Grace or by Works? - Ensign Apr. 1981

Edited February 26, 2011 by pam

[slamjet]

Mormons believe that salvation comes by grace and grace alone. Christ's atonement is an act of grace and we are all saved with it. It is a gift given to all God's children. The works part comes by us striving to keep all of God's commandments so that we will be found worthy to inherit the highest kingdom and live in the presence of our Father in Heaven.

So, in a matter of speaking, we believe in both. We are all saved from death by grace. We are all required to strive for perfection to enter into God's Kingdom.

I hope this helps. I'm sure there will be more people who will comment and be better at explaining this than I.

[GeneC]

James 2:14-26

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So BOTH!

Edited February 26, 2011 by pam
Took out the little letters for footnotes. :)

[pam]

Slamjet I think you explained it very nicely.

[livy111us]

Here are a few articles you may be interested in reading:

Mormonism and Christianity/Grace and works/Early Christian views on salvation - FAIRMormon

Mormonism and Christianity/Grace and works - FAIRMormon

Mormonism and Christianity/Grace and works/Salvation by faith alone - FAIRMormon

Grace, the meaning of Baptism - FAIRMormon

[MrShorty]

1. Do mormons believe in salvation by grace or works?

Does it have to be an either or thing? There's no way I can ever do enough to save myself, so salvation has to come by grace through faith. However, as noted, "faith without works is dead." So my faith has to be strong enough to motivate me to strive in all I do to be obedient to God's commands, which means I have to actually do something. So I see both as part of the equation -- I have to have faith in Christ, and I have to show that faith by my works -- the two things go together.

[jayanna]

I think of it this way,

We are saved through Jesus Christ's atonement, so we will live for eternity

Our works determine where we will spend that eternity.

We will be judged by our works.

In Matthew Ch. 7 Jesus is teaching the sermon on the mount, and toward the end he says this:

21¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Although we do not do good works just to get a reward later, we truly do care about each other. Through the atonement the Lord has shown us that He loves us, and when we do those things he asks us to do, we are showing Him that we love him, too.

[Traveler]

Because man is fallen not only will all die but all are in a state of spiritual confusion. There are two great gifts that come from G-d for the salvation of man.

First is the grace of G-d that allows Christ to redeem the sins of man - because man is fallen we cannot redeem our own sins.

The second great gift are the commandments whereby the discipline of honoring G-d’s commandments we become spiritually enlightened and able to abide the spiritual powers of G-d - in other words the commandments are the means by which that which is physical is united with that which is spiritual.

So the truth is that for man’s salvation it is necessary that G-d become invested in man - through Jesus Christ and man must also become invested to become whole and holy through subjecting themselves to the commandments of G-d.

The Traveler

[bytebear]

We are saved by Grace, not by Faith alone. Grace and Faith are not the same thing.

In fact, if you think about it, Jesus already paid for the sins of the world. That happened 2000 years before I was even born, so my works have absolutely no bearing on what Christ did. But my faith and works will determine how I benefit from his sacrifice.

[pam]

That happened 2000 years before I was even born,

I hope so or I'd be having you change your name to John the Beloved.

[rameumptom]

In the initial German translation of the Book of Mormon, Apostle John Taylor translated this verse as to say: in spite of all we can do.

IOW, salvation is from pure grace. And as Pam noted, works are only important insofar as they make us Christ-like, so that we become saved at a specific level of heaven we are ready to accept. A murderer who is saved but not righteous would feel miserable in God's full presence and glory (Alma 12, Mormon 9:4), but would feel happier in a lower level of salvation, where he would only experience a portion of God's glory instead.

Works are there to help us BECOME like Christ, not to save us.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm not a mormon yet but my father and I are considering joining the church.

I've read some of the BoM, not much I'm afraid to say. :/ Although one verse did sorta nag at me:

"For we labor dilligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23)

So I have 2 questions:

1. Do mormons believe in salvation by grace or works?

2. What does salvation mean for mormons?

Everything every one else has said above is more exact than what I have to add to this conversation but let me share my simple minded metaphor that helps me understand this concept. (maybe it is too simple)

I kind-of liken it to getting a scholarship to college (grace) that all of us have gotten for choosing God's plan over Satan's idea (i.e - we wanted to go to 'college', to learn more). What we do with the scholarship ('works' during our probationary life on Earth) is still up to us and will determine how far we go in the next life with the possibility of Exaltation (going onto graduate school, in this metaphor).

... just another metaphor to maybe help with these concepts.

[Blackmarch]

I'm not a mormon yet but my father and I are considering joining the church.

I've read some of the BoM, not much I'm afraid to say. :/ Although one verse did sorta nag at me:

"For we labor dilligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23)

So I have 2 questions:

1. Do mormons believe in salvation by grace or works?

2. What does salvation mean for mormons?

Faith is nothing without works, nor do works availeth anything without faith.... yet neither faith nor works can do any good without the grace of God.

Salvation means to be rescued. In the case of the gospel there are two major rescues that are done-

the first is that we are rescued from physical death, meaning that at some point we will get resurrected and we will recieve a body that is perfect (both physically and spiritually)-

this is an unconditional salvation, everyone will recieve it before they are judged and sent to wherever (whether heaven or hell).

Why is this done unconditionally? because we have no choice in the matter of whether to choose to die or not (we all will, period), therefore it is not just to be punished for something we have no control over.

The second is more conditional- it is a more spiritual rescue or how we can be brought back to the presence of God. As it is our sinful choices that distance us from God it must also be by our choice to allow Christ to bring us back to God. If we can be totally accept christ follow him 100% he'll bring us back to God all the way.

How do we accepted him?

by loving him and being obedient to what he tells us to do.

What does he tell us to do?

Love our neighbors, be baptised (by someone with his authority), go to church, and etc..

Edited February 28, 2011 by Blackmarch

[heatwaveo8]

I'm not a mormon yet but my father and I are considering joining the church.

I've read some of the BoM, not much I'm afraid to say. :/ Although one verse did sorta nag at me:

"For we labor dilligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23)

So I have 2 questions:

1. Do mormons believe in salvation by grace or works?

2. What does salvation mean for mormons?

Hi there. I hope the insight I give you will be helpful.

We believe that salvation means residing in God's presence for eternity after the final judgment, and being in His presence forever.

We believe that salvation comes both by grace and by works. Through the atonement of the Savior, we are able to receive our bodies back after we have died and be resurrected like the Savior was. Also through the atonement, all will be able to return to God's presence to be judged. These are free gifts to all, as a redemption from the fall of Adam.

We also believe, though, that we will be held accountable for the things we willingly do wrong when we know what is right. If we have knowingly done things wrong and haven't repented of them, we will be held accountable for them at judgment. Depending on how faithful we live our lives after joining the Church, we will be assigned a kingdom to reside in for eternity. Whether or not it is God's kingdom is up to us. If it's not God's kingdom, we will never see Him again after that.

That being said, it is important to distinguish what exactly faith is. Faith itself is not righteous works. Rather, faith itself is a power, and that power is made manifest in us through righteous works.

This is best explained through the following scriptures:

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The power of faith is forever present in us, but it requires exercising it through righteous works to make it stronger, like a muscle. Our works alone don't save us. Our faith must be exercised in Christ and His atonement through obedience to the commandments, otherwise the atonement will have less effect for us and mercy can't be fully applied when we make mistakes or when we are judged.

Here is a really good talk if you want to learn more about faith.

The Sustaining Power of Faith in Times of Uncertainty and Testing - Ensign May 2003

[LDSChristian]

I'm not a mormon yet but my father and I are considering joining the church.

I've read some of the BoM, not much I'm afraid to say. :/ Although one verse did sorta nag at me:

"For we labor dilligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23)

So I have 2 questions:

1. Do mormons believe in salvation by grace or works?

2. What does salvation mean for mormons?

Read James 2:17-26 and then chapter 4. We're saved by grace through our faith in Christ and that same faith is dead without works. We will be judged according to our works as taught in Revelation 20.

[SeanButler]

The reason we are saved by grace is because, as is said in Romans 3:10-12: "There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Yet while Scriptures give us witness to the faithlessness and failings of all men, it shows God as one who never gives up, reaching out in love to us.

Heatwaveo8 has shared Ephesians 2 with us, and I too like the way St. Paul put it (Ephesians 2:4-10): "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through fiath; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (James 2:17). As taught in Gospel Principles, to increase faith, one must act. President Spencer W. Kimball said, "There must be works with faith. How foolish it would be to ask the Lord to give us knowledge, but how wise to ask the Lord's help to acquire knowledge, to study constructively, to think clearly, and to retain things that we have learned."

The Holy Spirit will do these works through you, if you let it. If you truly desire to have the faith inside you grow, then it is possible.

My aunt wrote me a letter once, and many things I have just said are from the wisdom of the letter. Her love and faith are an example to me.

[Avrham]

I have always had the belief that my faith produces good works>my faith has always lead me to following the Savior and to do whatever He required>ie listen to modern day Prophets and read scriptures which is small part of my Faith in Him the Savior:):)

[w00dy931]

These are some verses I base my theology off of.

Ephesians 2 : 8-9

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

To me this is saying that When Jesus came to earth, he brought the gift of salvation. that we can have this Gift through faith in him alone, that what we do with our lives has absolutley no hold in getting this Gift, because it is not by our own doing. to support this theory here is another verse

Galatians 2:21

21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

I would like to say that Reading the book of Galatians all the way through really helps people understand where the Christian Faith gets its understanding of Grace. Its only 6 chapters.

[Mute]

I'm not a mormon yet but my father and I are considering joining the church.

I've read some of the BoM, not much I'm afraid to say. :/ Although one verse did sorta nag at me:

"For we labor dilligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23)

So I have 2 questions:

1. Do mormons believe in salvation by grace or works?

2. What does salvation mean for mormons?

This is something I have wrote about in the past regarding faith and works. It was intended for a different audience and I did not change what I wrote to address your post personally but it should answer your question.

So where does faith come from?

Romans 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ"

Faith in Christ comes from hearing the word. The Holy Spirit witnesses to us, as the word is read/heard. That witness manifests as faith/belief.

What is faith?

HEBREWS

CHAPTER 11

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Do works matter to get to heaven?

This is one of the subjects that many people seem to conflict over. Many former lds members have used this as a reason to why they left the lds faith or a reason attributed to why they left the lds faith. Other faiths have accused the LDS of attempting to work their way into Heaven.

Very few seem to understand faith and works. Even those who know this is not the LDS motives continue to say it anyways. Faith and Works is a belief many protestants have disagreed with and attacked the LDS faith over time and time again.

In my talking with members of protestant faiths one response was:

"The works that any Christian does, is because they are born again, and want to do as God has asked. Our obedience is because we love God and are born again, not to receive Salvation or keep it."

To be born again is to be baptized.

ST JOHN

CHAPTER 3

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Now, I know some believe it doesn't matter if you are baptized with water or baptized at all so long as you just accept Christ into your soul that counts as baptized.

Judas had faith. He was also born again which means to be baptized. Is he going to Heaven?

If someone says they are born again and don't do good works, then do they have faith? If they don't have faith, are they saved? If there are two people and they both claim to have faith but only one of them is doing good works, would they both be saved? Would the one that is not obeying the commandments be saved even though he believes he has been saved? Can you get to heaven with dead faith? Can you be saved by grace if your faith is dead? Faith without works is dead.

JAMES

CHAPTER 2

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

You can't earn Salvation by your works. You also can't obtain it by not doing anything. It's still a gift in the end. It would be like someone saying I'll give you a car and I'll fully pay for it but I want to make sure you'll drive it safely. It's still a gift and no matter what you do to show that, you are not earning the car. It is still a gift. But if you do not show that you will drive it safely or just ignore his instructions all together and keep driving unsafe, then he is not going to give it to you. You're not expected to be a perfect driver in this life but that is what you're striving to become. If you are unwilling to obey the rules of the road, then there would be no reason for you to receive this car and be able to drive it around town. Some people think some rules are unfair or stupid and I'd say the same thing. I don't agree with every rule. Now should you beat yourself up if you make a mistake driving or are not a perfect driver? How much should you try to pay absolutely perfect attention?

That's a difficult question. However there is a verse that does help to try and clear that up.

Mosiah 4: 27

27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.

That still does not tell you how much you need to do though or what is acceptable but lets continue.

Do you get more depending on how much you do? Will every single person get different amounts?

ST MATTHEW

CHAPTER 20

1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

The LDS do believe works matter. LDS believe that Jesus Christ paid for our sins and that there is no person that can do that for themselves. There is an overwhelming number of versus that talk about faith without works is dead. There is also a lot of versus that talk about Salvation coming by grace. Salvation comes by grace through faith which is dead without works. If you do not believe anything is necessary after you are saved in order to reach heaven, then that would of course provide you more time to research other religions and look for ways to show they're false.

ST MATTHEW

CHAPTER 7

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

JOHN

CHAPTER 2

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

ST JOHN

CHAPTER 14

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

LDS do believe salvation comes by grace. They just believe works matter too.

2 Ne. 25: 23

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

To summarize

EPHESIANS

CHAPTER 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

JAMES

CHAPTER 2

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Salvation comes by grace through faith which is dead without works. So show your faith by your works but don't over exert yourself. Just take it one step at a time. The important thing is you're going forward.

[w00dy931]

personally I find that you can spend a lot of time trying to explain what LDS teach about being saved by grace and not works, but I still see a teaching that is based off of works. because If my belief says that I am saved by grace through faith, and absolutely nothing else matters the I believe I am saved by Grace. But what is Grace?

Its undeserved kindess or unmeritted favor. Something I do not deserve, its not that I have not earned it yet, but that I actually do NOT deserve it. So I believe my salvation is not only a free gift but its a gift I should not be getting.

So my question to you guys as LDS members, how important are works? do you believe that works in any way are necessary to go to heaven? is it possible for someone to do absolutely no good works, and still go to heaven. in fact is it possible for that person to do bad things, sinful things, with no good works and still go to heaven? And this includes in the afterlife as well.

If the answer to that is yes, then truly this is not a works based faith.

But when someone says LDS is works based they are not saying that people from that faith neccessarily disregard what jesus did and try to perfect themselves, its just that if works are have any hold whatsoever on salvation in your faith, then essentially its a part of the foundation, so it is the easiest way to describe the faith. since it is, in a way, different then a grace based salvation.

Its true one could say LDS believes in a grace and works based salvation, but the problem there is that anyone who is from a grace only backround will become very confused. because there understanding of grace can only make sense in a total sort of way, that it is grace entirely.

So I will say this, I dont know if this will answer or create more questions, and I can support this biblically if someone would like me too. is that No matter what I do, the only way to lose my salvation is to run as fast as I can away from God for the rest of my life and flat out say NO to my salvation. Yes that means that if i wanted to (which i have NO desire to) I could do whatever I wanted, or not do whatever I wanted. and I would still be saved. But out of my faith comes a life of devotion and sacrifice. and works. but none of those things matter to me or to God. So I hope that helps everyone in some way understand why some would say mormons believe they are saved by works while the rest of the christian world says we are saved by grace. to put the two together, is actually very confusing.

[Dravin]

is that No matter what I do, the only way to lose my salvation is to run as fast as I can away from God for the rest of my life and flat out say NO to my salvation. Yes that means that if i wanted to (which i have NO desire to) I could do whatever I wanted, or not do whatever I wanted. and I would still be saved.

Can you run a away from God for the rest of your life and say flat out no to your salvation and be saved regardless or not? In your first sentence quoted you say there is a way you can lose your salvation and in the second you strongly imply (if not state) there isn't.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Dravin

[w00dy931]

sorry i see th confusion there, i was talking about sin, i believe in God's sovereignty we find the forgiveness for things we have not done yet and things we have already done. so the second sentence was reffering directly to sin and not to ones desire to deny salvation

[RescueMom]

Whoo hooo first post for me.

The way I look at it is this: If we do all we can do, go to the temple have that work done...live all the ordinances perfectly and are all around good people this is great. But take the Atonement out of the picture and what does it all mean?

I find many LDS tend to stick to the works part, but leave out the faith part. If you flip the words around...Works with out Faith is? basically nothing.

It's like building a bridge, we can build and build and build, but the piece of the bridge is the Atonement (Grace of God) and with out it, we are all lost.

Faith comes in taking the step, that even after we have done all we can do, that when we step off into the unknown Christ will not let us fail.

[alexm8]

So my question to you guys as LDS members, how important are works? do you believe that works in any way are necessary to go to heaven? is it possible for someone to do absolutely no good works, and still go to heaven. in fact is it possible for that person to do bad things, sinful things, with no good works and still go to heaven? And this includes in the afterlife as well.

Woody, the only real "work" that is required for Salvation is Baptism, which is not a true "work" but an ordinance. Salvation to a Reformed Christian is an all or nothing thing (either you are saved, or you aren't). To a Mormon it is a Journey. That journey begins with conversion of the heart (comparable to your being "born again") and requires baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost in order for Salvation to be effective.

The difference is, Mormons believe they can fall from that journey through certain sins. "Works" are God's commandments that keep them "saved". Works like chastity, keeping their bodies healthy, keeping the Sabbath by worshipping in churches, imparting their substance by paying alms, etc. maintain salvation's sufficiency.

They believe that violation of God's works can cause a loss of their salvation as taught in John 15:1-2, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit," Those who are "part of Jesus' church" (the vine) are required to "bear fruit" (works) or they will be "cut off" by the Father.

So, it can be said, "After all we can do, it is ultimately by grace that we are saved." Mormons do not believe they can save themselves by their works.

Edited March 22, 2011 by alexm8