perfection

[jennvan]

I had a friend tell me that they believed that because we are commanded to "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt 5:48) that it is possible for us to become perfect in this life.

I'd like a little feedback from others on this forum for comments on either side of this topic (Yes, we can be perfect in this life or No, we can't be perfect in this life). Feel free to quote scripture, talks, sermons, books and such in your argument for either side but please stick with "generally recognized as good" references.

I'm probably not going to argue either side but I might ask clarifying questions to things I don't understand. And if we get the kinds of responses one of the other threads got earlier, I'm excited to see what people have to say on either side. :)

[slamjet]

Remember that white lie we all told as a teen? Ooopps, perfection lost. Not going to get it back.

The problem with his view of the scripture is a lack of eternal perspective. We need to strive and then in the end, if we are found to have done what we could do, Christ will make us perfect with the Atonement. Thus, the commandment to be perfect.

[Just_A_Guy]

Note that in Matthew, Jesus tells His hearers to be perfect like their Father in Heaven.

In Third Nephi, He tells His hearers to be perfect like their Father in Heaven, or like Him.

In other words: he's admonishing them to aspire to a state of "perfection" that He Himself didn't even claim until after His resurrection. He's not telling them "don't ever make mistakes"; He's telling them "aspire to be like God". Moroni 10:32-33 tells us how to do that.

[jennvan]

Remember that white lie we all told as a teen? Ooopps, perfection lost. Not going to get it back.

The problem with his view of the scripture is a lack of eternal perspective. We need to strive and then in the end, if we are found to have done what we could do, Christ will make us perfect with the Atonement. Thus, the commandment to be perfect.

So what you are saying is that perfection is dependent on the atonement and that we can be perfect in one moment and then imperfect the next from some random thought and then pray for forgiveness and be perfect again? Or are you saying that perfection comes at the end of a life lived using the atonement?

[Jenamarie]

per·fect (pûrfkt)

adj.

1. Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.

2. Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.

3. Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient.

4. Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation: She was the perfect actress for the part.

5.

a. Completely corresponding to a description, standard, or type: a perfect circle; a perfect gentleman.

b. Accurately reproducing an original: a perfect copy of the painting.

6. Complete; thorough; utter: a perfect fool.

7. Pure; undiluted; unmixed: perfect red.

8. Excellent and delightful in all respects: a perfect day.

9. Botany Having both stamens and pistils in the same flower; monoclinous.

10. Grammar Of, relating to, or constituting a verb form expressing action completed prior to a fixed point of reference in time.

11. Music Designating the three basic intervals of the octave, fourth, and fifth.

The bolded definitions for "Perfect" I think pertain here, particularly numbers 1 and 2. Through the Atoning Blood of Christ we are made whole, and without blemish. It's not OUR actions that make us perfect, it's His.

[jennvan]

Note that in Matthew, Jesus tells His hearers to be perfect like their Father in Heaven.

In Third Nephi, He tells His hearers to be perfect like their Father in Heaven, or like Him.

In other words: he's admonishing them to aspire to a state of "perfection" that He Himself didn't even claim until after His resurrection. He's not telling them "don't ever make mistakes"; He's telling them "aspire to be like God". Moroni 10:32-33 tells us how to do that.

Oh I totally love that distinction. I hadn't thought about that before.

[jennvan]

per·fect (pûrfkt)

adj.

1. Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.

2. Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.

3. Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient.

4. Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation: She was the perfect actress for the part.

5.

a. Completely corresponding to a description, standard, or type: a perfect circle; a perfect gentleman.

b. Accurately reproducing an original: a perfect copy of the painting.

6. Complete; thorough; utter: a perfect fool.

7. Pure; undiluted; unmixed: perfect red.

8. Excellent and delightful in all respects: a perfect day.

9. Botany Having both stamens and pistils in the same flower; monoclinous.

10. Grammar Of, relating to, or constituting a verb form expressing action completed prior to a fixed point of reference in time.

11. Music Designating the three basic intervals of the octave, fourth, and fifth.

The bolded definitions for "Perfect" I think pertain here, particularly numbers 1 and 2. Through the Atoning Blood of Christ we are made whole, and without blemish. It's not OUR actions that make us perfect, it's His.

I wonder still, does this perfection come during our life with the use of the atonement or at the end of a life using the atonement (like I stated to slamjet)?

[Jenamarie]

I wonder still, does this perfection come during our life with the use of the atonement or at the end of a life using the atonement (like I stated to slamjet)?

Both, from my understanding. We can achieve moments of perfection when we repent, are baptized, keep our covenants, and partake of the Sacrament. And then after this life will come a more permanent perfection.

[Matthew0059]

I believe we can be absolutely, fully cleansed from sin in this life if we receive the Second Anointing while in this life. In this way, we become again innocent before GOD and "perfect" in that we have committed no sin that will be remembered in GOD'S presence.

If by "perfection" you mean "wholeness" in the way that the FATHER is "whole" (in the language of Adam, MAN OF HOLINESS is the name of GOD), then it is impossible to become perfect in this life.

[jennvan]

I believe we can be absolutely, fully cleansed from sin in this life if we receive the Second Anointing while in this life. In this way, we become again innocent before GOD and "perfect" in that we have committed no sin that will be remembered in GOD'S presence.

If by "perfection" you mean "wholeness" in the way that the FATHER is "whole" (in the language of Adam, MAN OF HOLINESS is the name of GOD), then it is impossible to become perfect in this life.

Tell me more about the "Second Anointing". I also like your distinction between perfect and whole.

[Just_A_Guy]

Just like confirmation is a priesthood ordinance that prepares you to receive the Comforter (Holy Ghost), the second anointing is a (very rarely performed) priesthood ordinance that prepares you to receive the Second Comforter (Jesus Christ Himself).

[Alyosha]

Maybe the question you should have asked is "could I have been perfect (sinless)?" I think you would have to admit yes to this question, otherwise choice between good and evil is an illusion, e.g. if no, then God would have basically forced you to sin, but that is impossible, obviously. I remember learning this when I was about a twelve at sunday school. We then had a discussion of how remote that possibility was (oops, not supposed to speculate--about doctrine, that is). Is it so remote that it might as well have been impossible? I think it was more like a 50/50 chance, or more properly, a 50/50 decision that first time I sinned. If God had made me more susceptible to sin than righteousness, then I don't think that would have really constituted leaving me to my of agency. But then, that begs the question: why isn't half the world sinless and half the world defiled? There is a good answer to this, but I want to make whoever reads this think about it.

[Alyosha]

I'll give a hint. One time in seminary class our teacher asked us to fill in a sudoku puzzle: but the puzzle was blank, so we didn't have much to go by. None of us could get it right. Then we got sudoku puzzles of easy difficulty. Though not a majority, many of us could fill in the blanks. We have a sudoku puzzle of easy difficulty. Consider the Standard Works: Genesis and the Letters of Paul in particular. Now, there is one last piece. It's in The Articles of Faith of the LDS church. The LDS church considers the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. One last clue: one of the hints I gave isn't part of the sudoku puzzle.

[Matthew0059]

JAG beat me to an explanation of the Second Anointing. I can't explain it better, not having undergone it myself.

[jennvan]

Just like confirmation is a priesthood ordinance that prepares you to receive the Comforter (Holy Ghost), the second anointing is a (very rarely performed) priesthood ordinance that prepares you to receive the Second Comforter (Jesus Christ Himself).

Interesting. Not much written about this is there? It sounds like it probably is too sacred to talk about too much. It sounds like we must have the Second Anointing/Comforter in order to be perfect because we know we must be perfect to be with God. Maybe the Second Anointing is the measure of perfection? Although some of the reading I did on it said that people who were still on the earth and still "sinning" had had their second anointing. IE: Joseph Smith had received the second anointing but still made mistakes.

So again it seems like there is a difference between a "calling and election made sure" and being perfect. Any thoughts?

[beefche]

Also, remember when Jesus commanded us to be perfect as Father in Heaven is perfect, Jesus did not have a resurrected, glorified body. Our bodies are vital to our exaltation. Once Jesus was resurrected with a glorified body, He then commanded us to be perfect even as He and Heavenly Father are perfect. I believe that part of perfection requires a glorified body.

[jennvan]

Maybe the question you should have asked is "could I have been perfect (sinless)?" I think you would have to admit yes to this question, otherwise choice between good and evil is an illusion, e.g. if no, then God would have basically forced you to sin, but that is impossible, obviously. I remember learning this when I was about a twelve at sunday school. We then had a discussion of how remote that possibility was (oops, not supposed to speculate--about doctrine, that is). Is it so remote that it might as well have been impossible? I think it was more like a 50/50 chance, or more properly, a 50/50 decision that first time I sinned. If God had made me more susceptible to sin than righteousness, then I don't think that would have really constituted leaving me to my of agency. But then, that begs the question: why isn't half the world sinless and half the world defiled? There is a good answer to this, but I want to make whoever reads this think about it.

I do like some of your ideas. Like the idea that we could have been sinless. There is the possibility that we could have always chosen right.

I'm not sure I understand your question about half the world being sinless and half the world being defiled. If every decision we make we have a 50/50 chance of right/wrong then are you saying that we are only ever perfect or utterly corrupt? I'm not sure I can buy into that given the talk Good, Better, Best. There are shades of gray throughout the gospel and the choices that we make.

[jennvan]

Also, remember when Jesus commanded us to be perfect as Father in Heaven is perfect, Jesus did not have a resurrected, glorified body. Our bodies are vital to our exaltation. Once Jesus was resurrected with a glorified body, He then commanded us to be perfect even as He and Heavenly Father are perfect. I believe that part of perfection requires a glorified body.

So I've heard a couple of times now the importance of the resurrection to being perfect, which I take to mean the body and spirit together becoming a glorified being.

So the bottom line is, no, we will never be perfect in this life? It is only something that comes after this life is over?

[Alyosha]

I do like some of your ideas. Like the idea that we could have been sinless. There is the possibility that we could have always chosen right.

I'm not sure I understand your question about half the world being sinless and half the world being defiled. If every decision we make we have a 50/50 chance of right/wrong then are you saying that we are only ever perfect or utterly corrupt? I'm not sure I can buy into that given the talk Good, Better, Best. There are shades of gray throughout the gospel and the choices that we make.

I'm not saying we would be either perfect or utterly corrupt. Just that we would be perfect or have at least one sin, and when I say sin I mean having knowingly chosen to sin. The reason I say that it is sort of a paradox that half the world isn't sinless is because for a person who isn't disposed to choose sin over non-sin, he or she would always be in the 50/50 decision range. Of course, once that first sin is committed, then one could grant that the individual is becoming more disposed to sin, having tasted the the fruit, figuring out that it tastes good, even though it is bitter in one's stomach.

PM me if you want to see my take.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Alyosha
Adding the phrase: "pm me if you want to see my take"

[rameumptom]

The Greek for "perfect" means complete or finished, much like a potter's clay vessel becomes complete, even though there may be minor flaws that the potter has had to smooth over.

It is a process. D&C 93 tells us that Christ went from grace to grace receiving grace for grace until he was perfect (including a perfect resurrected and glorified body). We are to follow His example, moving from one grace to the next, becoming completed or finished at the end.

[HiJolly]

The Second Anointing is referenced at the beginning of the temple endowment. Today it is no longer called "Second Anointing" by the Church--- the current nomenclature is "special temple blessings". A very specific (and rarefied) set of qualifications must be met to receive that blessing.

It was in General Conference 10 or 15 years ago (I think) that a GA said "none of us will be perfected in this life". Which I agree with.

HiJolly

[mordorbund]

So far, everyone here has taken the Jesus reference of perfect, which includes a glorified body. What about in the sense of some Old Testament prophets, like Noah and Job?

[rameumptom]

Noah and Job were not sinless. They were righteous in that they did perform the sacrifices required of them. They kept the commandments. They were viewed as "righteous before God." In the sense that the term "perfect" in Hebrew that is generally use (Tam) means "complete", it can mean that someone was not sinless, yet had achieved a righteousness acceptable of God.

[JudoMinja]

What about the city of Enoch? Here was an entire city of people living in such a "perfect" sinless state that the Lord took them up into heaven. I would argue that these people did reach perfection in this life (except having their bodies glorified which happened when they were "taken up"), and so it is not so impossible a goal.

[mordorbund]

Noah and Job were not sinless. They were righteous in that they did perform the sacrifices required of them. They kept the commandments. They were viewed as "righteous before God." In the sense that the term "perfect" in Hebrew that is generally use (Tam) means "complete", it can mean that someone was not sinless, yet had achieved a righteousness acceptable of God.

I think we can be perfect in the same sense within a single lifetime, just as they were. So back to the OP, yes/no. Give me your definition of perfect and I'll tell you if a person can achieve it before death.