Why Preschool Shouldn't Be Like School

[Guest]

Expectations need to be shared. Students can't meet them if all parties involved don't know what they are. I haven't done anything yet to contact my local schools, and perhaps I should, but I have no idea what will be expected of my daughter by the time she enters kindergarten. She'll be three in a month, so she won't be starting kindergarten for two years, but it would be nice to know now what skills and knowledge are expected to be in place by the time she gets there.

(I realize that you are speaking more specifically of once a child is already in school, and there is a parent-teacher relationship there, even if it's only implied.)

Expectations are coded into Law... at least in Florida.

So, I can pull up the Florida Department of Education website and find the requirements there. It shows what are taught in each grade level and what the expectations are for the next level. Kindergarten and first grade do not have "educational readiness" requirements. They only have age requirements. But, with the new Voluntary Pre-K program (State pays for pre-k through vouchers that you can take to any VPK accredited pre-school), most kids entering Kindergarten already know letters, colors, and numbers, so it is the parents' prerogative to at least look at the VPK program and what the required learning for accreditation and teach their kids those.

Edited March 17, 2011 by anatess

[Backroads]

Expectations need to be shared. Students can't meet them if all parties involved don't know what they are. I haven't done anything yet to contact my local schools, and perhaps I should, but I have no idea what will be expected of my daughter by the time she enters kindergarten. She'll be three in a month, so she won't be starting kindergarten for two years, but it would be nice to know now what skills and knowledge are expected to be in place by the time she gets there.

(I realize that you are speaking more specifically of once a child is already in school, and there is a parent-teacher relationship there, even if it's only implied.)

That's an excellent point, and I think that's where a strong community-school bond needs to exist. As it stands, most public schools (in my area) expect a child to know how to read and write their name, the alphabet, and a few sight words prior to kindergarten. These things are not necessarily something that can be taught the summer before kindergarten.

There needs to be a way for people with small children to KNOW these things several years in advance.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Had to clarify this statement:

You are saying that Teacher with such-n-such Excellent Qualities applies at a high standards private school and gets the job. Teacher with such-n-such Not-So-Excellent Qualities applies at a public school and gets the job.

Okay, the first teacher is better because of the qualities. Therefore, if this were repeated many times, private schools would tend to have teachers of the first kind and public schools of the latter.

Is it still possible for Teacher with such-n-such Excellent Qualities to apply at a public school and STILL have those excellent qualities and skills?

I stand by my statement. It's very simple. If private schools are able to efficiently rid themselves of bad teachers and the public schools are not, then the pool of teachers in private schools will be better than that in public schools. This doesn't mean there aren't brilliant and dedicated teachers on both fronts, it means that bad teachers in the public sector will lower the grading curve because they cannot be dismissed so easily. I don't see why this is hard to understand.

[Backroads]

I stand by my statement. It's very simple. If private schools are able to efficiently rid themselves of bad teachers and the public schools are not, then the pool of teachers in private schools will be better than that in public schools. This doesn't mean there aren't brilliant and dedicated teachers on both fronts, it means that bad teachers in the public sector will lower the grading curve because they cannot be dismissed so easily. I don't see why this is hard to understand.

Because it's the first time you've said it this way. You always stated that the private schools will have the better pool. You never admitted that it was still possible to have brilliant and dedicated teachers in public schools, at least that I saw.

[Guest]

Sounds like a conversation I had about my oldest. I kept asking for specifics. Did he miss homework assignments? Is he not participating in class? I got the same runaround you did. I've never once gotten that attitude from the teachers in the private school I moved him to. More often than not, I was bombarded with details so a got a clear picture of what was going on. Having dealt with more than one teacher in this new school, I can confidently say this is a standard of performance that the school itself encourages. What a difference!

I agree with this. The Catholic Elementary Schools here are the same. One kid I know is going to Europe in the summer to be an "Education ambassador". He goes with a group in his school to exchange ideas with other Catholic Schools in Europe to see how their education matches up with others of their age across the world. So, not only are they communicating with their kids' parents - they're communicating with the rest of the parents all across the globe.

But, I also know of a private school that is drug-infested... even if their education standard is excellent...

[Guest Alana]

We started homeschooling last month because of all the pressure. It was stressing my son out. There needs to be expectations of course, but I know so many kids, boys especially, who hate school. I wasn't ready for my 6 year old to start hating it so soon. He was starting to hate the things he was ahead in, also, because of the way it was taught.

I really geared myself up for a tough, stubborn start with homeschool. It's actually been awesome. His reading has improved so much, we're able to go at an accelerated pace for math, and we're able to have fun with all of it.

Last year in Kindergarten I volunteered a lot in the class. It bothered me that almost everything was taught on the white board or with black and white copies. There were hardly any math manipulatives, there were hardly any beginner reader books, and the ones they did have were again black and white and very disappointing.

I'm not sure if we'll always do homeschool, or we might switch to a half home half classroom program (there are a lot of homeschool choices here) but I do know I'm glad my son is able to not feel pressured so much yet, so he can actually be proud of his progress and growth, and coincidentally, learn faster.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

We started homeschooling last month because of all the pressure. It was stressing my son out. There needs to be expectations of course, but I know so many kids, boys especially, who hate school. I wasn't ready for my 6 year old to start hating it so soon. He was starting to hate the things he was ahead in, also, because of the way it was taught.

I really geared myself up for a tough, stubborn start with homeschool. It's actually been awesome. His reading has improved so much, we're able to go at an accelerated pace for math, and we're able to have fun with all of it.

Last year in Kindergarten I volunteered a lot in the class. It bothered me that almost everything was taught on the white board or with black and white copies. There were hardly any math manipulatives, there were hardly any beginner reader books, and the ones they did have were again black and white and very disappointing.

I'm not sure if we'll always do homeschool, or we might switch to a half home half classroom program (there are a lot of homeschool choices here) but I do know I'm glad my son is able to not feel pressured so much yet, so he can actually be proud of his progress and growth, and coincidentally, learn faster.

That's a great decision. We were considering homeschooling but decided to opt for private school instead. But we have a lot of friends who homeschool. The secret to success in doing this is:

1. Lots of support. Use the websites, curriculum, and support groups available now for homeschoolers.

2. Lots of extracurricular activity. Scouts are a good way for homeschooled kids to interact with others and get some good life experience.

3. Guard your school time. School time is school time. Don't allow any interference or interruptions. Have a room dedicated to classtime. Turn the phone ringer off.

And there's lots of other great advice from those who've been there, done that. I wish you the best in this course of action.

[pam]

I agree. Better teachers with good recommendations can score higher paying jobs and the lazy ones can work at Head Start!

I'm trying to get in touch with my sister in law who teaches kindergarten, but I know in the past those that teach preschool or kindergarten were also required to have credentials in early childhood development. Something that teachers in higher grades weren't required to have. I don't know if this is still true. Of course I can only speak for Utah when asking about this.

But if this is true, stating that the lazy ones can work at Head Start would not make sense. As it would seem that they would not be qualified to teach it.

[Just_A_Guy]

Pam, you are making my point for me. Development IS Education and Education IS Development (see my post on Montessori)...

FWIW, I recently handled a divorce for a public school teacher who had her Montessori certification. So it is (slowly) catching on here in the States.

[Just_A_Guy]

No matter how many vouchers you distribute, those kids aren't going to a private school.

No; but they still have some degree of choice between public schools and those schools are still competing with each other for those vouchers.

I do agree with pretty much all of your post, though. I sort of wonder whether the idea of universal education wasn't doomed from the beginning--how do you teach someone who doesn't want to be there, and whose family doesn't care whether they succeed or not in that setting? Would it be better just to identify these kids and shunt them off into vocational training or some other environment where they can succeed?

How do other countries do this?

[MarginOfError]

No; but they still have some degree of choice between public schools and those schools are still competing with each other for those vouchers.

I do agree with pretty much all of your post, though. I sort of wonder whether the idea of universal education wasn't doomed from the beginning--how do you teach someone who doesn't want to be there, and whose family doesn't care whether they succeed or not in that setting? Would it be better just to identify these kids and shunt them off into vocational training or some other environment where they can succeed?

How do other countries do this?

Well, as a starting point, in other countries, there's a clear and understood difference between university, college, and vocational school. Most Americans are lost to the difference, and those that do understand the difference think that going to a technical or vocational college is a sign of stupidity. Other countries seem much more comfortable with the idea that not everyone is as intelligent as the next person than Americans.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I'm trying to get in touch with my sister in law who teaches kindergarten, but I know in the past those that teach preschool or kindergarten were also required to have credentials in early childhood development. Something that teachers in higher grades weren't required to have. I don't know if this is still true. Of course I can only speak for Utah when asking about this.

But if this is true, stating that the lazy ones can work at Head Start would not make sense. As it would seem that they would not be qualified to teach it.

Oh, Pam. That statement was just a little badinage. No harm intended.

[lizzy16]

gone is the play kitchen

sorry, I kinda got going and swayed a bit off topic with this post! Still applies somewhat thought :)

The school in my area still has a play kitchen. The kids I babysit play during school.

I left kindergarten with very weak reading skills. My mom said I recognized few words. I learn by doing. I finally caught up to reading level in 3rd grade after my teacher helped me learn recognizing my individual learning style. A teacher can't always give such personal instruction but I went to a small charter school.

I love to learn and I get good grades but many teachers don't always see my learning style. Since middle school I've taken home notes and done activities and projects that help me learn instead of notes. I don't learn well that way. When I was younger I was tested for a lot of different disabilities. Math for example, until 5th grade I couldn't grasp what multiplying was. I still don't know any of the multiplication tables. I'm not good with memorizing, I do better applying knowledge to real life. I've had a really tough educational experience. High schools been a breeze because I know how I learn. I don't know why but I've figured out how to make things make sense. (For the most part. Math is still tough because at my level you can't compare it to real life. logx19 has nothing to do with people or relationships!).

And at least in my state with funding being cut students such as I aren't given the proper attention. The teachers may try but its not always adequate. In 5th grade the school stuck me in this math lab and some kind of learning style project (which they don't do anymore.) I felt like an idiot being surrounded by students who didn't know what a comma was when I was so clearly understanding such things but having difficulty grasping science and math topics.

I think the education system would be improved greatly by just trying to understand how each student learns. One of my teachers gives out at the end of each unit different ways for students to learn based on our learning styles. It's fantastic!

I still have no idea if theres a technical term for how I think or understand. Theres definitively something wrong with the math part of my brain. I've been through testing but nothing much came of it besides them telling me I had a problem and they weren't quite sure what it was.

Overall I've had a really top notch quality education. And, I've had a rough time learning. So what about students who have problems such as I do but aren't in very good schools and don't have resources?

[Guest]

How do other countries do this?

In the Philippines, there are more people than there are jobs. Therefore, you need at least a 2-year college education, a good great point average, and speak good English to work at McDonald's.

Because of this, parents and students recognize very quick that education is very important if you desire a comfortable existence. You must be Filipino if... you get spanked by your mother for getting ONLY 90% on a 1st grade school test.

There is a public school but only the poorest of the poor go there - or the juvenile dilinqents that cannot get accepted to any other school. Most kids attend a Catholic private school (tuition subsidized by the Catholic Church) - even non-Catholic kids.

Class size is similar to the US, method of instruction is the same as the US. But, school is 42 weeks out of a year from 7:30-4:30, 5 days a week, with 1 hour for lunch and 2 15-minute breaks. Kids graduate from high school at age 15/16.

To go to standard college you have to pass the National College Entrance Exams. Passing grade is by percentile (ranking among all the test takers in the nation). Therefore, even if you got a 80/100 in the test but you ranked below 20% nationwide, you may not make it to standard college. If you can't pass the NCEE, you can go to a vocational/trade school.

Students who can't afford college/vocational school usually end up working as general labor, agriculture, or domestic helpers.

In Japan, it is not unusual to find a class size of 60 students to 1 teacher in elementary school. This is possible because Japanese culture is very disciplined. You disrupt the class, you're not only in danger of getting kicked out, you are in danger of getting beat up by the students you disrupted.

It is also not unusual to find trade schools at the elementary level. You can find 2nd graders learning to assemble a bicycle.

[QT_pie]

I work at a daycare in a preschool age room and I am allowed to have 9 children to myself. for that age groupe it is completly resonable. in my "classroom" the philosophy is learning through play, the theory is that a child will learn all the important things they need to learn by interaction and play with other children and age/developmentally appropriate toys. We do not use computers or telivisoin to entertain them and all play is child and intrest directed.

I feel that this is a perfect way to learn and that all children need to have more time avalible to them for using their imagination and to just be a kid!!

[Backroads]

I think the education system would be improved greatly by just trying to understand how each student learns. One of my teachers gives out at the end of each unit different ways for students to learn based on our learning styles. It's fantastic!

I still have no idea if theres a technical term for how I think or understand. Theres definitively something wrong with the math part of my brain. I've been through testing but nothing much came of it besides them telling me I had a problem and they weren't quite sure what it was.

Overall I've had a really top notch quality education. And, I've had a rough time learning. So what about students who have problems such as I do but aren't in very good schools and don't have resources?

Tragically, a lot of educational research is moving away from the multi-learning styles idea in favor of just using them as variances on the "I do, we do, you do" model (which is a good model, but helps only the majority of kids and continues to ignore those who struggle.) My impression of the public schools is that the effort to improve test scores across the board is to find the best way to reach most kids. Granted, there is a lot of leniency involved and good teachers can certainly adapt the approved methods to reach all students, but a lot of public schools prefer best practices and nothing else.

Which is unfair. I come from a family of great readers--all of are. One little sister simply was not reading in first grade. She was immature for her age, was the youngest one in the class due to her birthday. The teachers all panicked while my parents didn't worry--they simply assumed she wasn't ready to read yet. Guess what? Second grade, she was right on grade level and steadily aiming upwards.

I never struggled in school. I was reading on a 7th grade level in 1st grade and picked up most concepts (except for telling time, I had issues with that.) I had ADD, but I was able to still keep up with school. I had lots of ADD/ADHD kids who did great academically, so they're not necessarily the ones to waste focus upon.

Back to vouchers... what concerns me about a lot of what I've read here is that the ideal system is that the best and the brightest would be accepted into the private and charter schools (where the best teacher pool is) and those who really need the help will be left at the public schools. If this were to become the case, how could good teachers be encouraged to stay at public schools where they would theoretically be dealing with the lowest of the low?

[Guest]

Back to vouchers... what concerns me about a lot of what I've read here is that the ideal system is that the best and the brightest would be accepted into the private and charter schools (where the best teacher pool is) and those who really need the help will be left at the public schools. If this were to become the case, how could good teachers be encouraged to stay at public schools where they would theoretically be dealing with the lowest of the low?

This is not necessarily the case. At least not in the way I envisioned it.

There are public schools currently who are top-ranking, amazing schools. Usually, these are "magnet" schools with a certain percentage of the students accepted through selective application or non-magnet/non-district schools whose attendance is solely based on selective application. For example - Pine View High School in Sarasota, Florida (non-magnet/non-district) and Stanton High School in Jacksonville, Florida (magnet) are both examples of these schools. Both schools are ranked within the top 20 of the nation.

As you can see, selective application works in the public school setting as well.

A lot of public schools in Florida have selective applications that are not merit-based. Music and Arts schools do selective application in art/music/theater and only require minimum state standards on academics. There are Technology schools, Agriculture schools, etc. etc. in Florida as well. There's even a Montessori public school here too.

These schools would do very well if you drop the district requirement and just retain selective application. They can compete with private schools if the law is changed to put a level playing field between private and public school systems.

But what the voucher can do... it may drive private school businesses up so that it would take some pressure off the public school system that is continually busting at the seams. It will not help the teacher's union, that's true. But, it will alleviate the problems of overcrowding in Florida's schools that is one of the causes of poor performance.

[lizzy16]

Charter schools aren't always academically based as Antatess said. I went to a charter school, I wasn't brilliant. And at the point (as I said before) my parents were having me tested for all sorts of learning disabilities.

My school was based on music. Every student played the violin and was involved in music. It's ironic that I'm completely tone deaf, can't sing. But, I've got Mary had a little lame and twinkle twinkle down pat :)

[Backroads]

Y'all realize that a charter school is a public school, right? It's very hard for them not be academically selective. Most use a random lottery. No one ever said you had to be brilliant to attend a charter school.

[lizzy16]

Y'all realize that a charter school is a public school, right? It's very hard for them not be academically selective. Most use a random lottery. No one ever said you had to be brilliant to attend a charter school.

It's not " traditionally public" but most use a lottery. Mine did. Any child can go to a public school but a charter school is more limited. Also, the governments money is split up differently from what I understand. I could be wrong.

[Backroads]

It's not " traditionally public" but most use a lottery. Mine did. Any child can go to a public school but a charter school is more limited. Also, the governments money is split up differently from what I understand. I could be wrong.

Technically, any child CAN attend a charter school [taking the lottery into account]. A charter school, since it does use government funds, cannot turn a child away [that has succeeded in the lottery]. Other than the lottery system many use or certain state-approved minimum requirements, a charter school cannot be terribly selective on the children it takes in.

There isn't a terrible difference in how the money is split up since a charter school IS public and receives funding/approval through the state/government. I think any difference is based on a local area's needs.

[Guest]

Technically, any child CAN attend a charter school [taking the lottery into account]. A charter school, since it does use government funds, cannot turn a child away [that has succeeded in the lottery]. Other than the lottery system many use or certain state-approved minimum requirements, a charter school cannot be terribly selective on the children it takes in.

There isn't a terrible difference in how the money is split up since a charter school IS public and receives funding/approval through the state/government. I think any difference is based on a local area's needs.

Here in Florida, a charter school is usually started by a non-profit organization or a certain PTA group. Yes, they are funded by public funds but usually at a lower per-student rate than the public school in the area. The organization raises the rest of the money through fundraising or volunteer work. The cool thing about the charter school is that they do not have to comply with a lot of the state education laws. I don't know which laws they don't have to comply with - I think it's different for every charter school.

I used to volunteer at a Charter High School by my work who specialized in kids that were kicked out from public school... ok, that's not the official statement. The official statement is majority of the students enrolled in that school were recommended by principals of public schoools.... but yeah, they usually are recommended there because they got in trouble in the public school. And man, that Charter School is super strict. It's almost like a military school (ok, I've never been to a military school, but I imagine that would be how it would feel like in one).

The school's measure of success is their graduation rate. Doesn't matter what grade, as long as the student gets enough merits to graduate...

[Backroads]

For state laws, it really does vary. It's such an exchange system: charter school gets leniency in this for doing that, etc., etc. Whatever is part of the submitted charter. Yes, lots of groups all over the country are quite capable of setting up a charter school--it's sort of what defines them as charter schools (as a government will rarely go out of its way to find people to set up a charter school). Still public, though.

[Guest]

For state laws, it really does vary. It's such an exchange system: charter school gets leniency in this for doing that, etc., etc. Whatever is part of the submitted charter. Yes, lots of groups all over the country are quite capable of setting up a charter school--it's sort of what defines them as charter schools (as a government will rarely go out of its way to find people to set up a charter school). Still public, though.

Maybe this is what I'm envisioning... with the vouchers. Make all public schools, charter schools. With the PTA as its charter sponsor. Then they all operate as autonomous public schools independent of a county school board!

What do you think?

[Backroads]

Maybe this is what I'm envisioning... with the vouchers. Make all public schools, charter schools. With the PTA as its charter sponsor. Then they all operate as autonomous public schools independent of a county school board!

What do you think?

It's my dream.

Heck, it very much fits with the country's original thoughts of public education.

It's also my dream to do away with age-based grades and whatnot...