Church Education System (CES): a paid clergy?

[Guest tbaird22]

So I was thinking about doing something in the CES as a career like my deceased grandfather had but I was wondering if it was considered a paid clergy. Clarification would be great :)

[mightynancy]

Paid educator. What's the prob?

[Guest tbaird22]

Alright well what is the difference between the CES and a paid clergy of another church.

[pam]

Clergy is usually someone who is a religious leader within a religion. Such as pastor, priest, preacher etc.

Someone who works for the CES such as a seminary teacher is a teacher. They aren't a leader within a religious organization.

[Dravin]

Paid educator. What's the prob?

He's probably worried about priestcraft. That said as a practical matter considering the Church both warns about priestcraft and has CES employees I'm assuming they don't consider it priestcraft. As you are getting at I think the thought is paid educator as opposed to paid clergy.

[Gwen]

I think the biggest factor (legally) that makes someone clergy is the ability to "take confession and forgive".

CES (church educational system) leaders at any level are not allowed to take confession or guide someone through the repentance process. They are not clergy but exactly what the title of the program suggests educational.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Gwen

[pam]

For those that may be new members or are investigating, CES stands for Church Education System.

We sometimes as long time members forget that not all are familiar with our acronyms.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Not only are they teachers only, the pay they recieve is paltry. My mother was a seminary teacher for years. The pay she recieved barely covered the cost of gas she used.

[pam]

I guess that depends on if you do it as early morning in a ward building or actually do it full time at a high school such as in Utah.

[NeuroTypical]

I don't think our church has a problem with priestcraft.

Some individual members might have a problem with believing that since the church employs them, they are now prophets or holding a superior priesthood or something. Those people are called unrighteous jerks, and as long as everyone understands that, things usually don't get too bad.

[Gwen]

Not only are they teachers only, the pay they recieve is paltry. My mother was a seminary teacher for years. The pay she recieved barely covered the cost of gas she used.

the pay may not be grand but there is also a lot provided for them that the rest of us have to buy, because of that i figure they don't need as much pay.

(i'm speaking of coordinators or institute directors, i've never met a paid seminary teacher, those are all by calling. i have known some to get compensated for gas, not the same as paid.)

[Guest tbaird22]

Thanks guys for all your help. So as I understand it the difference is that although they are church teachers they have no authority in the church like a calling would have. About having a career in CES I hear that a lot of people who leave the CES also leave the church because they saw something behind the scene. Is this true?

[pam]

the pay may not be grand but there is also a lot provided for them that the rest of us have to buy, because of that i figure they don't need as much pay.

(i'm speaking of coordinators or institute directors, i've never met a paid seminary teacher, those are all by calling. i have known some to get compensated for gas, not the same as paid.)

Not all seminary teachers are by calling. Some are hired full time by the Church Education System. You must have a bachelors degree and have completed other courses of study as a requirement. In my last ward we had 3 men who taught seminary at the local middle and high schools here in Utah. This was their full time employment.

I do know that many part time seminary teachers such as those that teach the classes before school are paid a very small salary to cover some of the expenses. **

**Edit to add. I just asked a friend of mine on facebook that teaches seminary in the morning in San Diego and she confirmed this.

Edited April 11, 2011 by pam

[pam]

Thanks guys for all your help. So as I understand it the difference is that although they are church teachers they have no authority in the church like a calling would have. About having a career in CES I hear that a lot of people who leave the CES also leave the church because they saw something behind the scene. Is this true?

I've never personally known anyone that has left the church after working for the CES.

[pam]

Here is a link that shows the requirements for full time employment:

LDS Seminary Careers

[Wingnut]

Interesting anecdote. I went to high school in Oregon, and in our community, we had enough LDS that we did have Release Time Seminary classes. There was a full-time teacher from a neighboring stake who was a CES employee. Teaching our Seminary classes was his full-time job. He had a separate calling in his ward, though I don't remember what it was. While I was still in high school, he was actually called as bishop of his ward, but continued his employment with CES. I guess he was paid clergy -- just not paid for his clerical position.

[estradling75]

Per 2 Nephi 26:29 2 Nephi 26 

I don't think many in CES would qualify as Priestcraft (Of course people are people and there will be exceptions)

Please note that the definition of Priestcraft isn't in getting paid. (After all the laborer is worthy of his hire) It is in doing it for the money and the honors of men.

[NeuroTypical]

About having a career in CES I hear that a lot of people who leave the CES also leave the church because they saw something behind the scene. Is this true?

I have never heard of folks leaving the church because of CES shennanigans either. I've heard of people who get all bent out of shape and leave because the church doesn't teach what they think it should, but that's not the same thing. It's not like the CES has 'the secret real history of the church' and they keep it from all of us. That's just silly. Anyone who wants to learn about the church outside of CES - go for it.

I'd guess that maybe 90% of the stuff I've learned about my faith, it's doctorines and history and people, wasn't learned in any institute classroom. (I'm not knocking that 10%, it's just that I went inactive as a teen, only 1 year into the institute program.)

LM

[HiJolly]

Thanks guys for all your help. So as I understand it the difference is that although they are church teachers they have no authority in the church like a calling would have. About having a career in CES I hear that a lot of people who leave the CES also leave the church because they saw something behind the scene. Is this true?

I know of one CES teacher who, as he studied Church history on his own, lost his testimony. He wrote a book about the doubts and "problems" in Church history that was quite negative. He didn't go public with it until he got his Church retirement, though.

I personally know another who lost his testimony in the same way but didn't write a book. He's just very bitter. I think most of that bitterness came from the fact that he didn't want to leave the Church's employment and seek a 'secular' job. So he was a hypocrite for the last 10 or so years of his employment, before he retired.

Very sad.

HiJolly

Edited April 11, 2011 by HiJolly

[Gwen]

Interesting anecdote. I went to high school in Oregon, and in our community, we had enough LDS that we did have Release Time Seminary classes. There was a full-time teacher from a neighboring stake who was a CES employee. Teaching our Seminary classes was his full-time job. He had a separate calling in his ward, though I don't remember what it was. While I was still in high school, he was actually called as bishop of his ward, but continued his employment with CES. I guess he was paid clergy -- just not paid for his clerical position.

our ces director/institute teacher is also in the stake presidency (has been a bishop more than once). i personally don't like it when they do the double calling like that (i don't object to "smaller" callings, just the authoritative ones). it's easy for young ppl to get confused when they are being an opinionated person as seminary/institute teacher and when they are bishop/stake presidency doing your worthiness interview.

[HiJolly]

I should say more, I think.

I also know dozens of CES people who have studied Church history and have *not* had a problem with their testimonies. I myself (not a CES person, thank God!) have done so. And while my testimony has necessarily changed significantly, I still believe.

HiJolly

[Wingnut]

our ces director/institute teacher is also in the stake presidency (has been a bishop more than once). i personally don't like it when they do the double calling like that (i don't object to "smaller" callings, just the authoritative ones). it's easy for young ppl to get confused when they are being an opinionated person as seminary/institute teacher and when they are bishop/stake presidency doing your worthiness interview.

In the example in my story, my seminary teacher was a CES employee -- Seminary was not his calling.

[Gwen]

In the example in my story, my seminary teacher was a CES employee -- Seminary was not his calling.

this person is a paid employee as well. that's how i know they get "perks" that most employees don't get that off set the low pay. he provides very well for his family on a ces employee check only and they have more than a few kids.

i've never had a seminary teacher that was employed by the church, it was all calling. the ces director that does all seminary teacher training and over sees the program is an employee, here he also teaches institute. i've never met an institute teacher that wasn't an employee of the church.

i do see how it could be different when the seminary teacher works in the school system, they are a teacher like any other. i've only been involved with early morning and home study programs.

my issue is you have a lot of young adults that sit in institute and hear this persons instruction on how they present the gospel. then they turn around later in the week and meet with the same person for recommend interview or repentance process and it gets blurred where the line is between "representing god and you should follow all counsel as leadership" and "his personal perspective on a scripture in class". i know it happens because i've seen it.

[estradling75]

my issue is you have a lot of young adults that sit in institute and hear this persons instruction on how they present the gospel. then they turn around later in the week and meet with the same person for recommend interview or repentance process and it gets blurred where the line is between "representing god and you should follow all counsel as leadership" and "his personal perspective on a scripture in class". i know it happens because i've seen it.

That could really be a problem. But at the same time the church might very well have resource issues. The allot of qualities that make a good teacher also make for good church leaders

[Suzie]

I was a Church employee many moons ago. When they hired me they said it was a calling with financial benefits.

I thought it was such an odd thing to say but I understand the concept behind it.