Does Righteous Anger Exist?

[slamjet]

What if looking at the picture doesn't help any? Should we ignore pain and suffering and not feel sympathy or compassion because in the end God will take care of it? If we feel a little something at a situation that just isn't right, should we shove away that emotion and not feel anything?

Is it anger, sympathy or compassion? If it's feeling anger, like posted, right or wrong is irrelevant, it's what you do with it that matters most. Are you going to let the anger fester without giving a moments thought as to why you are angry? Are you going to look inward and analyze why you are angry and once you know, what will you do about it? Anything or nothing? That's where the question of right and wrong comes in to play, not feeling the anger itself, but what you are going to do with that feeling.

As for sympathy and compassion, those are wholly separate topics that need their own thread.

[Backroads]

Is it anger, sympathy or compassion? If it's feeling anger, like posted, right or wrong is irrelevant, it's what you do with it that matters most. Are you going to let the anger fester without giving a moments thought as to why you are angry? Are you going to look inward and analyze why you are angry and once you know, what will you do about it? Anything or nothing? That's where the question of right and wrong comes in to play, not feeling the anger itself, but what you are going to do with that feeling.

Of course I would consider why I was feeling that way, and I am grateful for the clarification. I just kept getting the impression from this thread that angry feelings themselves, in the instant they were born, were essentially evil. And that made me confused with my question "are we thus not supposed to feel anything?"

I guess this topic turned into a "initial feeling vs reaction" melding for me.

As for sympathy and compassion, those are wholly separate topics that need their own thread.

Indeed they do.

[Suzie]

I don't think slamjet is saying anger is a false emotion as "it doesn't exist", what he is saying actually fits with psychology (in some aspects) and is called secondary emotion. A primary feeling is what we feel right before we feel angry. Maybe fear, threat, disrespect, feeling attacked, etc. If any of these feelings are strong enough, we think of the emotion as anger but is actually a secondary emotion, not a primary one. Anger is a feeling that covers up for something. Underneath this "anger" there are undetected emotions which are the real issues.

[Backroads]

I don't think slamjet is saying anger is a false emotion as "it doesn't exist", what he is saying actually fits with psychology (in some aspects) and is called secondary emotion. A primary feeling is what we feel right before we feel angry. Maybe fear, threat, disrespect, feeling attacked, etc. If any of these feelings are strong enough, we think of the emotion as anger but is actually a secondary emotion, not a primary one. Anger is a feeling that covers up for something. Underneath this "anger" there are undetected emotions which are the real issues.

I think your definition is the best I've seen on this thread. Got through to me, at least.

Reading that, the emotions you listed seem pretty legitimate and instantly natural feelings, while anger is something I would probably feel if I thought about it all too long.

Wow, it feels good to be finally following this.

[slamjet]

I think your definition is the best I've seen on this thread. Got through to me, at least.

I think it's because you don't like me, so you don't want to understand me should I be angry?

All kidding aside, I've not heard of it being called a second emotion. I defined it by 1) how it was explained to me, 2) my experiences with it. I've not read any shrinky books (outside of psych 101 in JC) so my knowledge of the terms are a bit thin.

[Suzie]

I've not heard of it being called a second emotion. .

http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/feap/newsletters/understanding-anger.pdf

"Anger is the second emotion – not the first. Anger usually results from feeling insulted, slighted, rejected, mistreated, disappointed, or hurt."

When we say "I am angry" we are in fact saying "I am feeling insulted, rejected, sad, mistreated, etc".

Edited April 15, 2011 by Suzie

[Backroads]

I think it's because you don't like me, so you don't want to understand me should I be angry?

BUT I DO LIKE YOU!!!!

[slamjet]

Interestingly enough, the DSM-IV does not list anger as a disorder. But it is a behavioral symptom of a whole lot of stuff.

[Suzie]

BUT I DO LIKE YOU!!!!

Hmmm that's a primary emotion. Watch out slamjet because the secondary one coming....

[slamjet]

Hmmm that's a primary emotion. Watch out slamjet because the secondary one coming....

Oh gosh, help?

[RipplecutBuddha]

My wife and I were discussing this, and I still have not satisfied myself with an answer, so I'll open this up for discussion.

I'm of the opinion that there are times when feeling angry is a justified emotional response, and that there is no wrong in FEELING angry. Of course, how you act in the anger is a separate issue entirely. But are there times when it is "right" to be angry? If someone hurt my family, killed them, raped them, whatever, do I have a "right" to be angry at them or do I only have a "right" to feel hurt by them?

My wife is of the opinion that anger is a secondary emotion which is never justified, and that you cannot feel angry and be living according to the gospel principles. That there is no such thing as justified, righteous anger.

I was trying to think of any examples from the scriptures where people are justifiably angry, but none of them seemed definitive. For example, was God angry during Soddom and Gamorrah? Was Jesus angry when he overturned tables in the temple? Was Moroni angry at the Lamanites for everything they'd done against his people as he led the battles against them? I could not find anything that specifically talked about their emotions, just their actions. Though it's easy to imagine them feeling angry, maybe they weren't.

Of course forgiving is important and necessary, but it seems like there are times to forgive, and times to be angry and put off forgiveness until the time is right. It's hard to forgive when you are still freshly angry, especially if you feel like you have every "right" to be angry.

Discuss!

As long as Jesus was justified in his anger during both clearings of the temple during his ministry, then righteous indignation is very real. We may not experience it often in our lives, but I absolutely believe it's still around.

[Backroads]

Hmmm that's a primary emotion. Watch out slamjet because the secondary one coming....

[slamjet]

Yea, that's usually what I bring out in ladies maybe that's why I can't get any dates?

I gotta say, this thread goes up in my top 5 favorite on this forum. Very respectful banter, a topic I know lots about and I learned lots. I appreciate all the input.

[Traveler]

I thought to answer this in part. For me anger has never proven to be beneficial. I can try to excuse the times in my life when I have acted in anger by saying it helped with a righteous cause but to be honest, anger leaves a demonic wake in its aftermath. I have regretted every word I have ever said to my wife and children out of anger - even when such words were 100% justified.

I believe that when G-d speaks of his anger it means nothing more than his realizing that something sorrowful must be done to someone he loves and that we can only understand this as his anger - else why would he do something of sorrow?

I believe anything done in anger can be done more effectively and intelligently if done without anger.

The Traveler

[JudoMinja]

I don't think slamjet is saying anger is a false emotion as "it doesn't exist", what he is saying actually fits with psychology (in some aspects) and is called secondary emotion. A primary feeling is what we feel right before we feel angry. Maybe fear, threat, disrespect, feeling attacked, etc. If any of these feelings are strong enough, we think of the emotion as anger but is actually a secondary emotion, not a primary one. Anger is a feeling that covers up for something. Underneath this "anger" there are undetected emotions which are the real issues.

This is exactly what I was trying to get at in my second (long) post. I can't remember exactly what the books are I looked at, but I remember finding it interesting that my therapist and my psychology text did not ever refer to anger as a secondary emotion- it was the books I read that were church references that did so. Anyway, thank you for summing it up so shortly, Suzie. :)

I hope you don't mind Rex, but I am going to use the example you provided to help show how anger is a secondary emotion and how you could analyze the situation in such a way that anything similar in the future may not cause you to feel angry-

You shared something with this friend in confidence. You expected it to be kept in confidence. When your friend shared the emails with others, you felt betrayed. You also felt that the action of sharing the emails was wrong, so the fact that this person did something "wrong" that caused you direct hurt fueled a feeling of anger. The primary emotions were hurt and betrayal. The secondary emotion was anger.

However, you could make an attempt to understand the situation from both the point of view of this friend and your wife (the person the emails were shared with). Your friend probably felt that the content of the emails went beyond any need for confidence and should be shared with your wife. She felt it was "right" to share the emails, probably because keeping them "secret" felt to her like she was being dishonest. Of course she could have told you ahead of time that she was going to break your confidence and her reasoning for why, but we all make mistakes right? Your wife apparently agrees with her, since she also feels it was "right" for your friend to share the emails with her.

Whether it really was right or wrong to share the emails doesn't matter. Your friend and your wife both felt that it was right. You felt that it was wrong. This discord in your opinions on the matter led to misunderstanding one another, and because you only saw things from your own point of view you allowed your hurt to turn into anger - because the actions that hurt you did not align with your personal sense of what was right.

Once you are already feeling angry about something, there isn't much you can do to change that. As others have said, you just have to find a good outlet for that anger. However, you should also make the attempt to analyze it, identify the underlying "primary" emotion your anger was built upon, and see if you can determine a different better response if you could do it over again. Doing this prepares us to change our way of thinking so that future situations that might have caused us to become angry no longer will.

Understanding the point of view of others and giving them the benefit of doubt are key components in removing ourselves from anger as well. The anger expressed by God is considered "righteous" because he sees the whole picture. He knows the hearts of everyone involved and understands what leads us to our mistaken decisions. He never makes any faulty assumptions and he uses his "anger" only in the defense of righteousness.

Our vision will always be limited. We cannot see the whole picture as God does, but we can at least attempt to improve our vision and try to see others as God sees them. The better we get at this, the harder it will be to become angry. Our primary emotions will instead trigger different responses more in harmony with the ways of the Lord like sympathy, compassion, sorrow, peace, etc.

[Blackmarch]

does rightious anger exist?yes. Do people use it? very extremely rarely. And it is probably better for people to leave it rather than use it.

[rex8499]

I hope you don't mind Rex, but I am going to use the example you provided to help show how anger is a secondary emotion and how you could analyze the situation in such a way that anything similar in the future may not cause you to feel angry-

You shared something with this friend in confidence. You expected it to be kept in confidence. When your friend shared the emails with others, you felt betrayed. You also felt that the action of sharing the emails was wrong, so the fact that this person did something "wrong" that caused you direct hurt fueled a feeling of anger. The primary emotions were hurt and betrayal. The secondary emotion was anger.

Is "betrayed" really an emotion? It seems to me that it's a condition or status or situation, not an emotion. It's a situation that certainly can create other strong emotions. "Hurt" or "Sadness" are emotions, and I'll admit they were present as well as anger at being betrayed.

[JudoMinja]

Is "betrayed" really an emotion? It seems to me that it's a condition or status or situation, not an emotion. It's a situation that certainly can create other strong emotions. "Hurt" or "Sadness" are emotions, and I'll admit they were present as well as anger at being betrayed.

Betrayal is both an act and an emotion. Here is a definition/description of the "emotion" of betrayal.

[rex8499]

That seems like a poor definition/argument for betrayal being an emotion.

Definition:

A person P feels betrayed by Q, if and only if,

1) P has the preference to not be betrayed by Q, and

2) P believes that P was betrayed by Q, and

3) P has displeasure arising from attending to the fact that P believes his/her preference is not satisfied.

I could substitute something like "hunger" in there and still have it hold true, whilst certainly not an emotion. At least I don't think hunger is an emotion....

A Person P feels Hungry if

1) P has the preference to not be hungry, and

2) P believes that P is hungry, and

3) P has displeasure arising from attending to the fact that P believes his preference is not satisfied.

I'm not sure where I'm trying to take this tangent. lol... Maybe nowhere.

[The_Phoenix]

My wife and I were discussing this, and I still have not satisfied myself with an answer, so I'll open this up for discussion.

I'm of the opinion that there are times when feeling angry is a justified emotional response, and that there is no wrong in FEELING angry. Of course, how you act in the anger is a separate issue entirely. But are there times when it is "right" to be angry? If someone hurt my family, killed them, raped them, whatever, do I have a "right" to be angry at them or do I only have a "right" to feel hurt by them?

My wife is of the opinion that anger is a secondary emotion which is never justified, and that you cannot feel angry and be living according to the gospel principles. That there is no such thing as justified, righteous anger.

I was trying to think of any examples from the scriptures where people are justifiably angry, but none of them seemed definitive. For example, was God angry during Soddom and Gamorrah? Was Jesus angry when he overturned tables in the temple? Was Moroni angry at the Lamanites for everything they'd done against his people as he led the battles against them? I could not find anything that specifically talked about their emotions, just their actions. Though it's easy to imagine them feeling angry, maybe they weren't.

Of course forgiving is important and necessary, but it seems like there are times to forgive, and times to be angry and put off forgiveness until the time is right. It's hard to forgive when you are still freshly angry, especially if you feel like you have every "right" to be angry.

Discuss!

My answer: seldom does righteous anger exist.

[rex8499]

Can someone give me an example of when they think that righteous anger would exist? Is it so rare that none of us can expect to experience it, or is it something we will only likely encounter a couple times in our lives?

[JudoMinja]

That seems like a poor definition/argument for betrayal being an emotion.

I could substitute something like "hunger" in there and still have it hold true, whilst certainly not an emotion. At least I don't think hunger is an emotion....

A Person P feels Hungry if

1) P has the preference to not be hungry, and

2) P believes that P is hungry, and

3) P has displeasure arising from attending to the fact that P believes his preference is not satisfied.

I'm not sure where I'm trying to take this tangent. lol... Maybe nowhere.

True, this is not the best description, however it is the best one I could find online to link to for my response. It was referred to as an emotion in my psychology text book though, and it stems from something very natural- trust. We are born with a perfect, unbroken trust in those around us. It is a strong "feeling" or "emotion" innate in our character. When that trust is broken, we feel hurt and the exact nature of that hurt is termed "betrayal". The action of breaking our trust was an act of betrayal, and the feeling of hurt we experience is the feeling of betrayal.

When we put our trust in something that is right and true, it will never be broken- ex, trust in God. However, people are flawed and even if we make every effort to never break another person's trust at some point we will do so- be it intentionally or unintentionally. We can reconcile that broken trust without anger when we recognize the line of thinking that caused that person to make a mistake (or our own mistaken line of thinking in placing trust in that person). We can then sympathize (or is it empathize? I always forget which is which) with that person, knowing that we have or will cause someone else to feel the very same hurt we now feel.

[zippy_do46]

Does Righteous anger exist? I believe that as long as there is un-righteous anger then there will be the opposite righteous anger.

So from what I have been reading anger is still anger. You can be a God and still be be angry. You can be a man and still be angry. You can be in control or out of control and still be angry. The case can be made that there are diffrent levels of anger.

I know when I get angry that I do not hear the words of my Comforter (Holy Ghost). I make bad choices that often leads to a greater anger. Some where along the line I loose control. I have been in that place before. My guilt and pride kept me there. So my anger, though sometimes brought on by a righteous belief led to uncontroled anger. It is very hard to be humble when you are angry. Somewhere you might cross the line. When you do righteous anger becomes un-righteous so fast.

[Tyler90AZ]

When I am woken up I get angry.

How is anger a secondary emotion in that case?

Edited April 19, 2011 by Tyler90AZ

[JudoMinja]

When I am woken up I get angry.

How is anger a secondary emotion in that case?

You are tired. You wish to sleep so that you will no longer be tired. Being roused against your will by something or someone causes you to feel that your basic needs are being ignored. You choose to become angry in response to those feelings.