The .002% rule

[Universeman]

When my brother was stationed in turkey many years ago he married a local girl who was somewhat worldly in her youth but after she had a daughter and later a miscarriage she returned to the faith of her fathers. My brother who was baptized LDS but never received his endowments and has been inactive for 20 years has decided through the gentile persuasions of his wife that the Muslim faith is the true Path to God.

Considering that our faith only represents .002% of the worlds population, does anyone have any insight to this glaring discrepancy and what exactly is our message to the world, will god condemn my brother because he is following the dictates of his conscience? What of the eleventh Article of Faith? I am confused because I am an active, faithful, and endowed Latter day saint, obviously I know what the requirements of exaltation are, but what of those who reject our message, even former/inactive members who feel another (any faith other than the one true church of Jesus Christ) path is the true path? I have a good relationship with my brother but he has made his decision clear and I do not feel that it is my place to condemn him for his decision. Any insights into this question would be greatly appreciated.

Do AoF 3 & 4 contradict 11?

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Universeman
"gentile" should read "gentle"--stuff like that tends to happen when posting at 2 am

[Guest saintish]

I am an active, faithful, and endowed Latter day saint, obviously I know what the requirements of exaltation are

I dont think there is anywhere where it says all men may recieve exaltation, All men may recieve salvation from death but that is not the same as exaltation as you know.

as for the 11th AofF, that refers to how we deal with our fellow man, it does not mean that G_d wants all men to worship according to their own dictates. He has set forth the proper way.

[prisonchaplain]

Let me add a Gentile perspective that is even closer than your brother. There are roughly 7 billion people in the world. 14 million or so claim LDS, yet perhaps 40% are active. Of those 40%, how many will actually obtain exaltation? So, at least 60%, and probably closer to 80% (wild, unscientific guestimating here) of LDS will reach no higher than the Terrestial Kingdom.

However, if I understand the theology, these will have good company with the faithful amongst the 2.2 billion Christians, nearly 2 billion Muslims, plus all the other faithful from other sincere religious practioners.

Those less faithful will find good company in the Telestial Kingdom...and so it goes.

My quandry, as an evangelical, is that Jesus says He's the only way. To what? Did He really mean that He is the way to the two lower kingdoms, where nearly all of his followers will end up, since all can be saved (from the outer darkness???) through Him?

Even as a Christian, in the traditional line, I struggle that for every one of my fellow believers, there are two that are not.

All this to say, the OP raises a very reasonable question.

[Elphaba]

. . . . through the gentile persuasions of his wife . . .

I don't have an answer to your question, (which I do think is an interesting one), but I thought this was a funny Freudian-type slip. (The bold is mine.)

Elphaba

Edited May 31, 2011 by Elphaba

[prisonchaplain]

I don't have an answer to your question, (which I do think is an interesting one), but I thought this was a funny Freudian-type slip. (The bold is mine.)

Elphaba

Silly me...I actually thought this was intentional.

[Guest saintish]

My quandry, as an evangelical, is that Jesus says He's the only way. To what? Did He really mean that He is the way to the two lower kingdoms, where nearly all of his followers will end up, since all can be saved (from the outer darkness???) through Him?

My personal interpretation has always been that the three degrees of glory are better thought of as the kingdom of heaven collectively and not 3 seperate kingdoms. In simple terms Jesus Promised that all believers will go to the US but some might be in tampa, FL and others will be in Flint, MI

[Seminarysnoozer]

My quandry, as an evangelical, is that Jesus says He's the only way. To what? Did He really mean that He is the way to the two lower kingdoms, where nearly all of his followers will end up, since all can be saved (from the outer darkness???) through Him?

Don't forget though that we believe the glory of the Telestial Kingdom surpasses all understanding.

D&C 76:89 "And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;"

[Traveler]

There are a couple of things to keep in mind.

#1. Jesus is the way. This includes the way by which everyone obtains any forgiveness or by which we overcome death or by which we are resurrected to glory - whatever that glory is.

#2. Not everybody desires to be in the Celestial Kingdom. Being in the Celestial Kingdom requires that one have the desire to take upon themselves the responsibilities (laws, covenants and commandments) of being and living as a G-d.

Many just plain do not desire such a thing - for example PC our friendly evangelical has expressed (As I understand) that it is not his desire to serve with such divine responsibility and calling - rather he would prefer to be served by those with divine responsibilities and callings. I have encountered many good and wonderful people I desire to have as friends with this attitude. It is not up to us to believe they will not someday change their minds but I do believe we ought to always encourage them to consider such responsibilities without being overbearing. As things progress and as I understand my calling in the priesthood (now and in eternity); I would dearly love and enjoy serving such individuals - even if they choose a lesser glory for eternity.

As a matter of fact - I believe now is as good as any time as any to “practice” serving and loving those that desire less than the Celestial Kingdom (as well as the Celestial Kingdom). I believe this accomplishes two things. It gives us a good understanding of such responsibilities (in case we do not enjoy such things so we can seek something less divine) and it gives others a “Christ like” example - just in case they, seeing such good works, change their mind and desire to serve others themselves.

The Traveler

[Elphaba]

Silly me...I actually thought this was intentional.

Ahh, I see. That would explain your use of the word.

Decades ago, when I was growing up in the Church, referring to non-LDS as gentiles was quite common. It's my impression that it's frowned upon today.

Given I haven't been to church for two decades, maybe I'm wrong, and Universeman did use it intentionally. If so, my post is stupid.

Elph

[prisonchaplain]

Elphaba...on reflection, I think you were right. Gentile is a word I probably wouldn't feel great about, if it was directed AT me, but somehow feels quite appropriate for me to use. It's like being in the Court of the Gentiles at the Temple in Jerusalem...you'd have to be a God-seeker to bother being there (unless you're a vendor)

[prisonchaplain]

Here's my quandry...for most active LDS, only the Celestial Kingdom is a worthy goal. If I were in the Church, I'd feel the same way. On the other hand, if all three kingdoms are considered "heaven," then I really don't need Jesus--at least not consciously. I can sincerely believe in anything, or just be sincerely moral...and I'll likely make the Terrestial Kingdom. I don't even have to work hard to get into the Telestial Kingdom...just kinda slither in, without doing to much harm.

So, Jesus is either not enough, or He's unnecessary to my conscious existence in this life. Yet, neither of those two options seem right to me.

[Vort]

Here's my quandry...for most active LDS, only the Celestial Kingdom is a worthy goal. If I were in the Church, I'd feel the same way. On the other hand, if all three kingdoms are considered "heaven," then I really don't need Jesus--at least not consciously. I can sincerely believe in anything, or just be sincerely moral...and I'll likely make the Terrestial Kingdom. I don't even have to work hard to get into the Telestial Kingdom...just kinda slither in, without doing to much harm.

So, Jesus is either not enough, or He's unnecessary to my conscious existence in this life. Yet, neither of those two options seem right to me.

You are mistaken, PC, though I can hardly blame you. Many Latter-day Saints believe exactly this: Jesus' atonement is necessary only for those who gain their exaltation.

The scriptures very clearly teach otherwise. EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, and ALL who do not accept the atonement are cast off. The meanest, most sinful person in the "telestial kingdom" will have accepted the atonement of Christ. That is a minimal prerequisite for any salvation, for any of God's glory.

[bytor2112]

Hello Universeman,

Lest we forget, ALL mankind that has ever lived or that will ever live on this earth will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Whether in their fleshly tabernacles or while in the realm of spirits. If your Brother didn't have a testimony or whatever the case is....know this, that he will be judged by ONE who is a perfected being of perfect love and knowledge. It will be okay :)

[Guest saintish]

Here's my quandry...for most active LDS, only the Celestial Kingdom is a worthy goal. If I were in the Church, I'd feel the same way. On the other hand, if all three kingdoms are considered "heaven," then I really don't need Jesus--at least not consciously. I can sincerely believe in anything, or just be sincerely moral...and I'll likely make the Terrestial Kingdom. I don't even have to work hard to get into the Telestial Kingdom...just kinda slither in, without doing to much harm.

So, Jesus is either not enough, or He's unnecessary to my conscious existence in this life. Yet, neither of those two options seem right to me.

good points PC but i think vort and bytor have touched on the key, all in any of the three kingdoms will have accepted Christ wether in life or in the spirit world.

[bytor2112]

Here's my quandry...for most active LDS, only the Celestial Kingdom is a worthy goal. If I were in the Church, I'd feel the same way. On the other hand, if all three kingdoms are considered "heaven," then I really don't need Jesus--at least not consciously. I can sincerely believe in anything, or just be sincerely moral...and I'll likely make the Terrestial Kingdom. I don't even have to work hard to get into the Telestial Kingdom...just kinda slither in, without doing to much harm.

So, Jesus is either not enough, or He's unnecessary to my conscious existence in this life. Yet, neither of those two options seem right to me.

For faithful Latter Day Saints only returning to live in the presense of Heavenly Father is the goal....exaltation. As for slithering into the Telestial Kingdom, a careful read of the following scripture helps us to understand the agony our Savior endured and the agony that must be endured by those "wicked" that would inherit the least of our Father's kingdoms.

From Doctrine and Covenants section: 19

15Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

[bytor2112]

So, Jesus is either not enough, or He's unnecessary to my conscious existence in this life. Yet, neither of those two options seem right to me.

Jesus (as you know) is so absolutely necessary to everyone's existence....whether they know it or not or accept HIM or that reality or not. Without the Light of Christ which we all have.....utter chaos and anarchy and despair.

Edited June 1, 2011 by bytor2112

[prisonchaplain]

I believe I've learned something today. The second-chance, after death, is not a mild palm slap, followed by a passive "Good to know...yeah, I'll take it." You believe it will be as heart-wrenching as authentic conversions are today.

[Vort]

I believe I've learned something today. The second-chance, after death, is not a mild palm slap, followed by a passive "Good to know...yeah, I'll take it." You believe it will be as heart-wrenching as authentic conversions are today.

Indeed. I would add that it's not quite as mechanistic as all that, either. What constitutes "a real opportunity to accept the gospel"? I cannot answer that, and I suspect few (or no) other Latter-day Saints can, either. Such things are God's to deal with. We know only what has been revealed to us in the scriptures, primarily the Doctrine and Covenants,and some things that we individually may have been taught by the Spirit.

All will have the opportunity to come unto Christ and to receive him, if they will. If they will not, then they will receive whatever portion they are willing to receive. There is no favoritism from God toward Jews, Mormons, or anyone else. All are equal before God, and all will be given the opportunity to come unto him through Christ. We Latter-day Saints are simply in the happy and enviable position of being a part of God's kingdom on earth -- happy and enviable, that is, to those who love Christ. I fear that for the majority of the world, such a position is neither happy nor enviable.

As Brother Nibley taught, the joy of God is a fearsome thing, something we are not ready to experience. What is the greatest joy the human mind can conceive of? Why, to behold the face of God and dwell in his presence. And what is the most painful horror that can be inflicted on devils and wicked men? To behold the face of God and dwell in his presence. We can become ready to experience the presence of God and the unfathomable joy of his countenance as we live the gospel, for it will teach us how to experience, cope with, and enjoy such eternal happiness.

[Traveler]

I believe I've learned something today. The second-chance, after death, is not a mild palm slap, followed by a passive "Good to know...yeah, I'll take it." You believe it will be as heart-wrenching as authentic conversions are today.

Missing from this discussion is the concept of discipline. The very word disciple is connected with the root understanding of discipline. Thus for the Celestial Kingdom G-d becomes our master. Not in the sense of a “Task Master” but an overseer that assumes the role of master to us as apprentice. The qualifications or enlistment I believe open to all. It is not a type of thing where the non-elite will be washed out but a promise and a covenant with G-d that if we so desire in him and trust him to teach us - he knows how to make us divine - even as he is and we will be “one” even as the Father is one with the Son. There is no failure just continue in his teaching. If we fall short or fail (as some would call our efforts) we repent and continue.

It is not G-d that says enough - saying to the failure you are not meant for this - you fail and must accept a lesser reward. No, it is only us that say; we have had enough - we are not meant for this - I have failed and will accept a lesser reward. The scriptures are very clear; it is not G-d that fails in us but it is us that falls by no longer following. It is not a matter of being converted to G-d as it is to be converted to being G-d and serving our fellow man as per the example of Jesus Christ. The real conversion is not just that Jesus is great and divine (everyone will do that; for every knee will bow and every tongue confess the divinity of Christ) - the conversion is that he can and will instruct us to be great and divine even one with all that he has and is.

The first conversion that G-d is divine is easy and everyone will do so - it is the discipline of the second conversion that is heart wrenching and difficult - even impossible - but only to those that will not convert and trust and believe that G-d can and will make us like him. Then it is only over when we say it is over.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Here's my quandry...for most active LDS, only the Celestial Kingdom is a worthy goal. If I were in the Church, I'd feel the same way. On the other hand, if all three kingdoms are considered "heaven," then I really don't need Jesus--at least not consciously. I can sincerely believe in anything, or just be sincerely moral...and I'll likely make the Terrestial Kingdom. I don't even have to work hard to get into the Telestial Kingdom...just kinda slither in, without doing to much harm.

So, Jesus is either not enough, or He's unnecessary to my conscious existence in this life. Yet, neither of those two options seem right to me.

We also believe that everyone here already picked Jesus in the pre-mortal life, the first estate. Everyone here already said that they need Him in word, here it is the action with the word that is at play. The test is to stay true to our prior commitment despite worldly temptations. The corrupted existence we are in clouds that choice but when the veil is lifted I think we will be "raised" as it says in D&C, back to our higher and our true appreciation of the plan as well as knowledge of our previous commitment to the plan.

[Still_Small_Voice]

The road to the telestial kingdom is a very difficult one. After being in spirit prison for at least 1,000 years the spirits of the unjust will be called up to be judged and receive their kingdom.

I cannot imagine the horror of having to pay the price of justice for my own sins and then having to be confined and shut in prison to wait for the mercy of God to release me for such a long time.

36,500 days is a long time.

[Universeman]

I apologize, It was not my intent to say that non members were gentiles, I blame the spell checker :-) My mother has a tendency to take things to the extreme and unfortunately has been trying her best to alienate my brother and my sister in law by being overbearing in her efforts to make our family a “forevor family’. My mom’s biggest error was sending a very nasty anti Islam message trying to convert her daughter in law, could you imagine how you would feel if the situation was reversed? M-l defends her faith in Allah, but my mom still continues to pressure her to join the Saviors true church. In the end M-l still responds with kindness and patience in her response, my concern is that my mom will persist and just drive a wedge between them.

I don’t know what I should say to my mom however because she does not take criticism very well, she always has to be right. My mom’s primary concern is that we won’t be an eternal family, but why else are we doing the temple work for all of G-d’s children who have been born on this planet. Are we not all destined to be part of an eternal family, and all of us save the sons of perdition, will receive a degree of glory based on the desires of our heart and our actions.

D&C 137:9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

I wanted to share with you the exchange between my mother and sister in law (M-l), in order to share with you how good intentions can potentially cause great harm when trying to share the gospel with our friends or those we love, especially when we fail to empathize with their beliefs.

--- On Sun, 5/8/11, mom wrote:

Here is the truth of Islam. Please turn away while there is time. Click here: http://www.jorgeluisgonzalo.com/commentary_files/Chronology%20Of%20Islam.pdf

--- On Sun5/8/2011 M-l writes:

As I told you before, I respect your belief, your religion is yours mine is mine. I won't follow yours and you won't follow mine! So lets not criticize each other religion anymore.:))))))))

On Mon, 5/9/11, mom wrote:

I'm sorry if you feel this way. As you want the best for your child, so do I want the best for mine. If you only understood the importance of being sealed, by the proper authority, for all time and eternity you would be able to see what I am trying to say. By your refusing to follow your husband's faith, you are taking my son away from me for ever - for all time and eternity. I am under the impression that in your culture, the wife follows her husband - am I wrong? You are the head of the household? The more that I read about Islam, the more alarmed I become. I had thought that it was the religion of Ishmael, but I now realize that it's the religion of Mohammad, and it has always been a violent religion. You were not reared in the extreme that most of Islam is, it isn't just the Terrorists either. You are a kind person and sees good in everyone and everything. I really admire you for this. So you don't see the reality of Islam. I do wish that you would allow the Mormon Missionaries to visit with you. If for no other reason than to understand better my beliefs, as you seem to be confused on many aspects. Many of the things you have written to me are not our beliefs, e.g., Jesus didn't pray to himself, he prayed to our Heavenly Father - they are not the same person, only one in purpose. I know that many Christian religion teach that they are the same, and that concept is as silly to me, as it is to you. Jesus did not, nor does he now or ever replace the one, all-powerful GOD, but he came to earth as more than a messenger. He came as the Son of GOD. While Jesus lived on this earth he felt all the human feelings, he experienced all that any of us experience - how else could he understand how we feel? He promised us the Holy Spirit to give up inspiration, and guidance. Do you still have the Book of Mormon that I sent to you?

Please look up Moroni 10:3-5 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, 14\ith real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

I don't desire to upset you, M-l. I just want my family with me throughout all Eternity. Don't you want this too? Love, Mom ---

---On Mon, 5/9/2011 M-l writes:

Mom, I love you so much. As you sad that you care about your child, in Islam we have to care about all people, especially our family members, and help them to understand God's only religion of Islam. All I was trying to do is to help you keep away from hell's fire and punishment. And you are in a wrong way, believe me I can swear for that. All that stuff we told you about Islam seems like you haven’t listen a single one...Islam is the peaceful religion. All you heard and read about it is the propaganda about Islam, I red the whole history of Islam and the story of Muhammad (pbuh)There is no single violence action, I can write you pages about this subject but I don’t have the strength, cause i know you will not listen MOM (( Some people hate Islam and they take some of idiots Muslims action out there and cost it to Islam. And some people including you are buying it. Something T-d told a while ago that I really liked. He sad devil made a good job with showing Islam totally something else then it is. Well first of all Todd made up his mind all by himself after he read the Quran. Because there is no compulsion in Islam. You have to freely choose it otherwise it wont accept from God. I didn’t pressure him, but i just tried to make him some points of Islam to make him see it. Well in Islam, the man is head of the house and because of that women are not allowed to marry a Christians or Jews or other religions out there. Because God knows then they will follow their husbands religion which will lead them to hell's fire.(God knows the best) Well I did marry a Christian but I was so away from God in that time. Thanks to My creator he guided my beloved husband to Islam and opened his heart to Islam. Praise Allah! I am sorry but nothing makes sense about Mormon belief to me! And thank you for your effort but I don’t need anybody come to my home to preach me about Mormonism. I know I am on the right path of my creator. I am only worshipping him ALONE with no partner. I am believing all of his messengers and his books. I worship the way all prophets did, and i fast the way all the prophets did. And if i want something I ask him directly, he can only hear me no one else. I love all his messengers equally no distinguishing one from another. Since Muhammad(pbuh) was the messenger of Allah to sent to whole man kind and the seal of the prophets, we imitate his actions, cause he was the living Quran. Some people take it we care and love him more then other prophets. But that is not true, we love all the prophets of Allah dearly! So how can I be wrong mom. Do you think God will be mad at me and put me in the hells fire because I worshiped him Alone, and accepted all of his books and messengers. have no possibility to be wrong. On the other hand, God will be mad at you to make him 3 instead of one, he will be mad at you cause you don’t directly talk to him, I hope you understand where I am going. But anyway, so lets not try to convert each other anymore. I am set and secure on my belief, with God's willing nothing will change that. I just want you to know i love you dearly, I will pray for you that God make you see and hear and guide you to his true path! ---

On Tuesday, 5/10/2011, Mom wrote:

M-l, I do pray directly to God, and none other. You say that you honor all the prophets, yet you do not honor the prophet that is on the earth today, Thomas S. Monson, or Joseph Smith, the prophet of God that restored the true gospel on earth as promised in the New Testament.

Jesus said: 47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. 49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: 50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; (New Testament | Luke 11:47 - 50)

Neither of us have to worry about hell and brimstones, because neither of us are evil. You and I are daughters of our Heavenly Father and he loves us, He has prepared a wonderful place for us to return to His presence. We just won't go as a family unit, unless we are sealed together by the proper authority. That includes Todd and you. He knows this, he is just counting on someone doing his work for him after he is dead - - which may or may not happen. No guarantees if he doesn't take care of it himself in this life. I do not hate Islam, but from the words you write - nothing else, it seems to be marked by intense animosity. You throw around words like "Because God knows then they will follow their husband religion which will lead them to hell's fire." These are very scary thoughts you have, but they are not from a loving Heavenly Father. I know from things you write that you often feel worthless and guilt-ridden. I wish that I had the ability to convey to you how much Heavenly Father treasures you, and how pleased he is with your devotion. I know that he is with me as well.

I don't bring this any of this up to contend with you, M-l, I tell you these things because I love you and Todd and I know what I say is true. I know that there is no other way to return to our Heavenly Father, but through Jesus. I say this, not because I worship Jesus, but because Heavenly Father has said so. Families can be together Forever - don't you want that for you/our family? Do you pray set prayers or do you pray from your heart? Although prayer has a role in many religions and cultures, rarely is prayer considered to be a two-way communication between God and man/woman. I know that Heavenly Father not only hears our prayers, but will answer them. Words and thoughts will be impressed upon your heart and in your mind. If your prayers are sincere and you really want to know whether God is real and if He has established His Kingdom on earth - he will let you know the truth. I know he did for me. Will you promise to read the Book of Mormon? Hugs, Mom

On Tuesday, 5/10/2011, M-l writes:

Mom I am leaving for Turkey today. I got tons of things to do right now. So i will respond your e-mail once I get to Turkey okay! I love you, byeee

Edited June 1, 2011 by Universeman

[Jamie123]

There are roughly 7 billion people in the world. 14 million or so claim LDS, yet perhaps 40% are active. Of those 40%, how many will actually obtain exaltation? So, at least 60%, and probably closer to 80% (wild, unscientific guestimating here) of LDS will reach no higher than the Terrestial Kingdom.

Is it true that only people who were LDS in their mortal life have the potential for exultation? Could not a person who lived a life of faith (following "the truth" as he understood it at the time) still become eligible for exaltation through ordinances performed for him after death?

[bytor2112]

Is it true that only people who were LDS in their mortal life have the potential for exultation? Could not a person who lived a life of faith (following "the truth" as he understood it at the time) still become eligible for exaltation through ordinances performed for him after death?

Yes...exaltation is available to ALL who would recieve it. :)

[Universeman]

I just found this BYU fireside talk, it was given on 1 June 1980, 31 years to the day, cool. The entire address is amazing, although I do not agree with him on matter of evolution, he does say that his "reasoning causes him to conclude that death entered the world with the fall", but that is another topic for another time :-)

The Seven Deadly Heresies - Bruce R. McConkie

He pretty much clears up any question regarding this topic, "Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom."

The Seven Deadly Heresies

BRUCE R. MCCONKIE

Heresy four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.

I knew a man, now deceased, not a member of the Church, who was a degenerate old reprobate who found pleasure, as he supposed, in living after the manner of the world. A cigarette dangled from his lips, alcohol stenched his breath, and profane and bawdy stories defiled his lips. His moral status left much to be desired.

His wife was a member of the Church, as faithful as she could be under the circumstances. One day she said to him, "You know the Church is true; why won't you be baptized?" He replied, "Of course I know the Church is true, but I have no intention of changing my habits in order to join it. I prefer to live the way I do. But that doesn't worry me in the slightest. I know that as soon as I die, you will have someone go to the temple and do the work for me and everything will come out all right in the end anyway."

He died and she had the work done in the temple. We do not sit in judgment and deny vicarious ordinances to people. But what will it profit him?

There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

For those who do not have an opportunity to believe and obey the holy word in this life, the first chance to gain salvation will come in the spirit world. If those who hear the word for the first time in the realms ahead are the kind of people who would have accepted the gospel here, had the opportunity been afforded them, they will accept it there. Salvation for the dead is for those whose first chance to gain salvation is in the spirit world.

In the revelation recently added to our canon of holy writ, these words are found:

Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. [D&C 137:7*9]

There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.