Women Having Careers

[FutureMD]

Anecdotally, this statement may have merit - he is probably reflecting on what he has seen personally - men who aren't confident enough in themselves and their own abilities to even allow the idea of marrying someone so accomplished. However, arguing by anecdote is politics at best, the fallacy of an appeal to emotion.

I 100% agree with this. I understand that by going to med school, I'm automatically eliminating a lot of guys from my dating pool. I accept that. And not all of them are insecure or have big egos. They probably just want/prefer a wife who's going to stay home. And that's perfectly valid. There are also some who probably do have ego problems/insecurity with it, but I don't want them anyway

If he had taken more time, gone through the fast-and-pray process along with you instead of just telling you to do it (presumably until you agree with him), then perhaps his counsel would carry more weight. But for now, just take it as his personal advice. My advice would be to disregard this particular item of counsel outright.

This helped me realize that not everything Bishops say should be taken as direct, spiritual counsel from Heavenly Father. I should have realized this before. Everyone has their own opinion and my Bishop's could be mixed into his "counsel" a little. I'm still going to fast and pray before next Sunday's meeting, but I'm going to keep this in mind.

I dig all this family stuff, but I worry about women who have no education and will have a difficult time fending for themselves if something happens to the husband - especially when there are 4 & 5 kids involved. Not everyone needs college, but everyone should have some kind of skill and I'm not sure if I see it amongst many of the women in the ward.

You've hit the nail on the head. The Church teaches lessons on self-sufficiency ALL THE TIME and especially in this day and age of opportunity and availability, everyone should strive to acquire enough skills and abilities to provide for themselves. It doesn't mean you have to use that skill in the work place, should you choose to stay home. But if you are going to choose to stay home, shouldn't you also plan for the unknown? And by plan, I mean, be prepared with a backup plan on how you're going to provide for yourself and pay the bills should your original plan of staying home fall through.

Good luck in school. Others here know I have issues with running to the bishop about everything (I'm a convert, it ain't my style) and I certainly understand introducing yourself, but it's not like you have to hang out with the bishop. He can't deny you the sacrament because you're in med school, right? Med school is hard enough without having some negative voice in the back of your head the whole time.

Thank you so much for your well-wishes! I also think you need to figure a lot of things out on your own before "running to the Bishop" in your words. And I love what you said in bold...hadn't thought of it that way before. It's not like I'm sinning by going to med school.

Hyohko & Dahlia, I think we would get along really well :)

[Saldrin]

I am okay with women having careers, in fact that the one I like is 18 years my senior which led the other lady to tell me I'm beneath her notice.

I only bring that up to make a point don't feel "old" by any standard. you never know who is out there for you.

[FutureMD]

LDS leaders', members', and men's antipathy toward female education has been very grossly exaggerated, in my experience.

In my own experience, (and my mom's,) I think it really depends on what field women choose to pursue. I'm going to be frank, and hope I don't offend anyone, but there are certain career paths & choices that are much more friendly to women and some that aren't. For example, I wonder if my Bishop would've given me the same counsel had I told him I was going to nursing school? Or pursuing an advanced degree in education?

Even within medicine itself, there are certain fields that are more "women-friendly" (Pediatrics, OB/GYN, Family) and some specialities that are still considered "good ol' boys" clubs (Most of the surgical specialities).

In my experience at BYU, I double-majored in psychology & physiology and it wasn't until my pre-med classes that I encountered any "antipathy" from my male classmates. Psych classes, no problem, but once I showed up to play with the pre-med "boys," I definitely felt a shift. I actually had a male classmate say to my face, "Don't you feel guilty taking another guy's spot, when you should really be worrying about getting married?"

Anyway, in general, I agree with you Vort. Maybe in most cases things are grossly exaggerated, but there's something different about med school & being a Mormon female. Up until my pre-med experiences at BYU, I hadn't felt like there was any discrimination or "antipathy" toward women getting an education. But through this process of getting into med school, I have encountered an entirely new subset of prejudices and obstacles to being female, and am sure there will be more to come. It's ok though, I guess this is just helping me be stronger.

[mightynancy]

You sound like you'll be a wonderful doctor. :)

Our daughter is passionate about science, and we encourage her to pursue her interest wherever it takes her. I think it would be tragic for her not to have it in her life (not to mention the contributions she could make to the greater community), and there are ways to keep family a priority while having a fulfilling career.

[MorningStar]

I feel there are people who truly need female doctors. I am one of them. It would be silly of me to tell a woman not to pursue being a doctor if she feels that is her calling in life. I am way more comfortable seeing a female OB/GYN. When I have to see a male for whatever reason, my blood pressure goes really high and I have to sit and rest afterwards until it goes back to normal so I can prove it was just extreme nervousness. Once when I saw a female doctor, she had a male medical student there to observe and I started to have a panic attack. Had to tell the poor guy he would have to go wait outside. I had some really bad experiences as a child and a male doctor had no respect for my boundaries at the age of 11 and started to do a pelvic exam without warning or asking me (or my mom). I flipped out and sobbed uncontrollably for about an hour. When I went to see a female before I got married, that was also very difficult and she had to talk to me for about 10 minutes before I felt "ready", but I still turned pale and felt like I was going to pass out.

I am also very grateful for the mom/doctor who has cared for my children for 8 years. She has adjusted her schedule for her children and I have known other women who take a leave of absence then return to their practice. There are lots of male physicians I love too, but when it comes to certain exams, that is way out of my comfort zone.

[prophetofdoom]

The Bishop may have a point. I mean how serious are you going to be about dating and finding an eternal companion during Med School? From what I hear, it can be VERY intensive and exhaustive... how would you find time to marry?

Then, AFTER med school... the excuse of building one's budding career becomes 1st priority.. I think the Bishop is merely giving a gut check... is this something you REALLY want despite the possible consequences of delaying an eternal family?

Then, let's suppose you do marry a man and he has a career also... who is going to raise the kids? If your future husband makes plenty of money.. what is the excuse to continue working and send your kids to day care?

[MorningStar]

You could ask a guy the same question: How would you have time to date and get married in med school? Does this mean Mormon men should be discouraged from becoming doctors? I know women who have set their lives up to find Mr. Right, but they still aren't married in their mid 30's or later. We are all entitled to personal revelation. If a woman receives inspiration from Heavenly Father that she is meant to be a doctor (which provides a major service to many people), I think she should go for it.

[MarginOfError]

My wife earned her Master's degree and was ABD for her PhD before she decided, with only minor regard to the opinions of her husband and parents, to leave school and dedicate herself to child rearing full-time. I don't recall a single instance where she was discouraged from her educational path by leaders, or for that matter by members.

LDS leaders', members', and men's antipathy toward female education has been very grossly exaggerated, in my experience.

I think that's true now, but it wasn't necessarily true 10 or 15 years ago. Thankfully, it's certainly going out of fashion.

Anecdotally, I have a close friend who received her Bachelor's degree at MIT, moved to Salt Lake with her husband where he was attending medical school and she pursued her Master's degree in hydrology. On more than one occasion, in different stakes, she was met with bewilderment that she would pursue an advanced degree.

The antipathy may be exaggerated now, but I don't think that was the case in the past. It's recognized as a problem because it was a significant problem at some point in our cultural history.

Edited July 1, 2011 by MarginOfError

[prophetofdoom]

You could ask a guy the same question: How would you have time to date and get married in med school? Does this mean Mormon men should be discouraged from becoming doctors? I know women who have set their lives up to find Mr. Right, but they still aren't married in their mid 30's or later. We are all entitled to personal revelation. If a woman receives inspiration from Heavenly Father that she is meant to be a doctor (which provides a major service to many people), I think she should go for it.

I am not saying a woman can't have a career or have personal revelation regarding the issue. I am just saying that the Bishop is pointing out possible eternal consequences to that choice. Of course the Bishop can't tell her not to pursue a career... but, in an ecclesiastical context... he is concerned about her progressing and receiving all ordinances according to the gospel plan.

[Soulsearcher]

I am not saying a woman can't have a career or have personal revelation regarding the issue. I am just saying that the Bishop is pointing out possible eternal consequences to that choice. Of course the Bishop can't tell her not to pursue a career... but, in an ecclesiastical context... he is concerned about her progressing and receiving all ordinances according to the gospel plan.

Yet you didn't address the question about LDS men doing exactly the same thing?

[Vort]

My wife earned her Master's degree and was ABD for her PhD before she decided, with only minor regard to the opinions of her husband and parents, to leave school and dedicate herself to child rearing full-time. I don't recall a single instance where she was discouraged from her educational path by leaders, or for that matter by members.

LDS leaders', members', and men's antipathy toward female education has been very grossly exaggerated, in my experience.

I think that's true now, but it wasn't necessarily true 10 or 15 years ago. Thankfully, it's certainly going out of fashion.

We left grad school in 1995.

[ADoyle90815]

Unfortunately with the untrained clergy the LDS church has, sometimes there are issues like this that come up. I would think that the LDS work ethic includes having a woman who is prepared to work if they live in an area where 2 incomes are really needed to provide the basics of food and shelter. In those areas, only the wealthy can afford to have someone stay at home. I know the LDS church doesn't like it, but there are cases where the woman earns more than her husband, so for those families, the dad stays at home while the mom works.

There are also jobs where people feel more comfortable with a woman, such as an OB/GYN, daycare provider, or teacher. I think if women suddenly disappeared from the workforce, the economy would suffer, as there wouldn't be enough male teachers, nurses, etc to be ready to fill the gap. There might also be an increase in homeschooling which would hurt even private schools as there are people who are afraid of men around their children.

[Windseeker]

I shared this post with my wife who' holds a PhD in Physiology, graduated from medical school and just finished her first year of an Internal Medicine residency. She told me the only difficult thing for her when dating was finding someone smart enough to hold a decent conversation with. I thought better of reminding her I only have a couple of quarters of community college under my belt and kept my mouth shut.

I feel bad you had such an experience. My wife said she has never experienced what you went thru and has always been encouraged in her pursuit of education. Family and kids will happen don’t worry, we got 4 ages 8-16. I remember our first sacrament meeting in our new ward in Florida her first year of residency, watching the Bishop stand up and present an award to retiring female heart surgeon who had dedicated herself to service in third world countries. Keep it up and don’t be discouraged!

[dahlia]

LDS leaders', members', and men's antipathy toward female education has been very grossly exaggerated, in my experience.

I really don't think I see the antipathy towards female education in anything I've read from the leaders - I just seem to see it in real life, in my ward. Maybe it's different in a regular ward with a mix of people from different backgrounds. It's just that, considering I'm in a college town, I'd like to see some woman coming here to do her thing, not just to follow her husband. Of course, I'm not in the singles ward. Maybe they've got a bunch of female PhD students over there that I don't know anything about.