I'm a confused investigator

[MsMagnolia]

ok. gonna try to tackle some of this. Remember that missionaries, while wonderful young people, are still learning too. Learning the doctrines of eternity takes a lifetime and beyond. That is why it is called "ETERNAL" progression. We learn and grow for eternity. I know more now than when I was 19 and 20. I still have tons more to learn.

I would highly suggest that as you study and pray that you ask specific questions of your Father in Heaven. Then, make sure you truly listen for the answers that only He can give.

Eternal Families are only possible in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom called exaltation. This goes hand in hand with eternal progression. Just as a family grows here on earth, likewise it grows in eternity. Sure you will remember your family members on the other side of the veil but without the sealing bonds there will be no eternal growth.

As to the role of women and more on the family I refer you to the proclamation made by the first presidency of the church.

The Family: A Proclamation to the World - Ensign June 2006

I think you have gotten lots of wonderful links and thoughts about Brigham Young. I hope that you continue to search and study. Good luck in your search.

Mags

[MsMagnolia]

I don't think God was the reason for the priest hood to not be given to blacks. I truly believe Brigham Young just boogered that one up. I think Brigham Young was the leader the Church needed at the time, because of the fleeing West business and getting SLC set up. His talents in these areas made him the right choice at the time. The problem is I think he started making changed that were beyond the scope of what the Lord wanted of him.

)

I have to respectfully disagree with you. The Lord calls prophets. Yes, they are men... but men called of God. We do not need to speculate why the restriction on the priesthood happened. We just have to go forward and work with the knowledge that we don't have all the answers. This is why we need personal revelation and a living prophet on the earth today.

[unixknight]

I have to respectfully disagree with you. The Lord calls prophets. Yes, they are men... but men called of God. We do not need to speculate why the restriction on the priesthood happened. We just have to go forward and work with the knowledge that we don't have all the answers. This is why we need personal revelation and a living prophet on the earth today.

At the end of the day that's really all we can do.

[cooling]

The whole "less valiant in the premortal existence" thing was really bothering me, so I'm glad to hear that it's not actual doctrine. Which goes back to my original post here, that for an outsider (and even for insiders I think) it gets really difficult to tell what's official doctrine and what's just speculation.

So, if I'm understanding you guys correctly, the sealings are only necessary if you want your family to grow and progress in the afterlife, right? So we will all still be ourselves and be free to live out eternity with our earthly family if we so choose, just so long as they're not in a higher kingdom of Heaven? And I remember hearing something about how spirits can visit the lower kingdoms, but not visit higher kingdoms than the one they're assigned to. Is that correct? And is the scripture clear on exactly what sealing means when it comes to children? Like, say you have three children and they are all sealed to you. Those children grow up and get married in the temple and sealed to spouses of their own, and those spouses have faithful sealed families as well... Where would those kids wind up in relation to you?

Sorry for the bombardment of questions. Just trying to wrap my head around the important stuff.

[HiJolly]

Well... The chatters on the mormon site are missionaries. That's why it bothered me that he denied the teaching so much.

The missionaries are not told one word about this stuff in their training -- so if they weren't taught it at home as a youth, they're just going to be clueless. Which is what it sounds like to me.

1. Eternal families. Okay, I get the concept, I understand how sealings work, I know that only marriage in the temple lasts longer than till death. None of that confuses me. What confuses me is what would stop me from being with my family anyway, if we were all in the same kingdom of Heaven? Like, say my family and I live excellent lives of charity and humility and service to others, but we never really feel the testimony of or join the Mormon church. Since we're not members we're clearly not sealed, so we'd probably wind up in the terrestrial kingdom, right? So what stops my family from still being eternal? Is it just that my spouse and I aren't officially married? Couldn't we still be together as a family if we chose to? What if I'd rather be with my family on a voluntary basis than being "Sealed" to them? I don't imagine that God would have armed sentries keeping us from rejoining each other in the afterlife or anything.

Great questions, and I think there are answers but I don't think they've been given publicly. You'll need to pray and see if you can get an answer or two yourself, straight from the source. There is no end of speculation you can hear from various members/leaders/etc. but don't count on any of these to have a really reliable answer for you.

2. The role of women. I mean, I love children and would be happy to be a mother someday, but I just can't believe that having children is the only thing God has intended for me. What if I were terrible with children and didn't want any, but still wanted to serve God? I know that there's no proclamation stating that women have to have children in the church, but it seems to be very much emphasized. I have a career that I love and that I could do while being a mother, but I feel like the scripture suggests that unless it's necessary to get by, I should stay home with my children while my husband works. Has this attitude changed at all? I know plenty of Mormon women who work and have careers and go to school, so I'm fully aware that it's not a requirement. I'm just wondering if being a mother is still the ultimate goal for a woman according to the church.

It is the fulfillment of purpose in life & in heaven, yeah. But it isn't everything, just like being a father isn't everything for Heavenly Father. He and Heavenly Mother make a team, and just as we do in life, they BOTH do a lot more than parenting. Hmmm... I wonder if they ever go on retreat & leave the show to the Holy Ghost whilst they're gone? Hmmm....

3. I'm sorry if this is a sensitive topic, but the whole thing with blacks and the priesthood. Some of the things that Brigham Young said about black people are really upsetting to me, and while I know that not all words spoken by a prophet are spoken as a prophet, I have a hard time believing that anyone who advocated for the killing of biracial couples and their offspring would have been someone God would want us to follow. I know that blacks are now given equal rights within the church, but is it still considered doctrinal that their dark skin was a mark that they were less valiant in the pre-existence? Because I've read this in officially endorsed by the church doctrine. While I feel that science and faith can and should peacefully coexist, the scientist in me makes a lot more sense when I ponder why there are different races in the world.

That's right. In the early days of the Church, we were pretty in line with modern science. But that changed in the 1950's thru the 90's (and still some today) and because of that, many members don't believe in evolution and insist on a literal Global Flood and similar biblical stories. Do a search on "flood" or "evolution" and see the debates amongst ourselves!

There is a belief that has been promulgated from the pulpit that our leaders can't lead us astray-- I believe it has been severely overblown over the last 10 or 15 years, but in principle I agree with it. In a kind of relaxed way, LoL.

As you mention, a serious test of this is BY and his racist views, as well as his teachings on Adam-God. In both cases, while his actions did cause a lot of grief and some confusion here in mortality, in the eternal view I don't think there will be a problem. In fact, I'm supremely confident that God can handle it all just fine. And us? Well. We already know nothing's perfect in this life.

And whoever said our doctrines can't change, doesn't know Church history very well...

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

I encourage you to read my testimony:

Personal Beliefs » HiJolly comes clean » LDS Social Network

HJ

[HiJolly]

The whole "less valiant in the premortal existence" thing was really bothering me, so I'm glad to hear that it's not actual doctrine. Which goes back to my original post here, that for an outsider (and even for insiders I think) it gets really difficult to tell what's official doctrine and what's just speculation.

In this Church, we are free to believe almost anything we want. There is no creed. We do not believe any revelation or scripture is inerrant or perfect. Everything must be understood via the Holy Spirit. It's a bit anarchistic, but the formal hierarchy of the Church helps keep it all working, for the most part.

So, if I'm understanding you guys correctly, the sealings are only necessary if you want your family to grow and progress in the afterlife, right? So we will all still be ourselves and be free to live out eternity with our earthly family if we so choose, just so long as they're not in a higher kingdom of Heaven? And I remember hearing something about how spirits can visit the lower kingdoms, but not visit higher kingdoms than the one they're assigned to. Is that correct? And is the scripture clear on exactly what sealing means when it comes to children? Like, say you have three children and they are all sealed to you. Those children grow up and get married in the temple and sealed to spouses of their own, and those spouses have faithful sealed families as well... Where would those kids wind up in relation to you?

We don't know all the details. The essential family unit in heaven is the husband & wife. Period (ok, maybe some spirit kids). We know that we have bonds of love, priesthood, sociality and commitment in heaven with our mortal relations and loved ones from this life, via the priesthood sealing power, and that there is a place where everyone 'fits' and belongs. But really there's just so much that we don't know.

Sorry for the bombardment of questions. Just trying to wrap my head around the important stuff.

There's a LOT to deal with. Keep 'em coming!

HJ

[alexm8]

This post caught my interest and wanted to throw in my two cents. First, the questions being ask are a lot of the deeper ones that don't really have an "Official Mormon Doctrine". There is a lot of commentary, and we can speculate, but the honest answer is we just don't know for sure. I know it sounds like a copout, but there really have been no specific revelations for these issues. It's just not the way God works.

Certain principles have been taught by Church leaders, and even prophets, but they are entitled to their own opinions (some of which have gotten the Church into trouble). While believing in the opinions of Church leaders does not condemn us in God's eyes, it can cause confusion (including yours). But realizing they are opinions helps us to not lose our testimonies of the things that have been revealed.

I will attempt to answer a couple of your questions with things I've learned (qualifier that this is not "official doctrine").

1. Black skin: there was curse placed on certain people like Cain or the Lamanites. The curse was a loss of salvation, the priesthood, and that God would no longer be their god. That was the curse. There was a mark used to identify those who had that curse and the mark was black, or darkened, skin. This doesn't mean that when the curse was removed that the mark automagically disappears. Some today have that curse, but do not carry the "mark" (ie white people)...

2. Families in Heaven: we were unlike our Father and Mother in the Pre-Mortal world. They had bodies and could bear children, we could not. We needed to gain a body and learn to master it's appetites, along with our relationships to our spouses. Those who succeeded would be able to, as husband and wife, be able to bear their own posterity in the eternities. Those who failed, or didn't want to, would remain "single", even while retaining close ties to friends and family.

The "sealing" binds those family members to each other and to God so that we become part of His family in the Celestial Kingdom. Those who are not sealed (or do not accept their proxy sealing after death) can have friendly relationships, but will not live with Heavenly Father.

The comment about being a stay-at-home mother doesn't mean it's the only way to raise a family, but it is the best way.

These are some good questions to make one think. Hope these help.

Edited August 2, 2011 by alexm8

[Guest Sachi001]

Thanks so much for the help here. So ignoring the controversy surrounding Brigham Young, does official Mormon Doctrine state that dark skin is a mark of lesser valiance in the pre-existence? I have read this in official church materials, but they were older ones and you guys said it was best to stick with the newer publications. So does anyone know if that's something that's considered unchanging doctrine? And if so, was there ever a reason given why God gave the revelation to change the policy regarding the priesthood?

You can get many answers on lds.org also you can get into debate all day long on Blacks regarding the priesthood, Words of Wisdom and Sealings, but temple matters are sacred, and not secret, and not really to be discussed. If you look up temple rituals online you will see many false information so don't count on them as reliable. Some of them partly true in what occurs most very hyperbole.

Regarding blacks I suggest talking to John Doe or Skippy as more authoritive on the subject matter. They are part of Blacks in the scriptures site.

BlacksInTheScriptures.com

The only way you will learn about the doctrine is to come and visit and listen. You don't have to be baptized right away. We had a member who was unsure. It took him five years of study. He came to church often, and studied with us first. After he was satisfied on his search he became baptized. He was hesitant like you as too many questions and as a former Catholic in training for being a priest he did not get the answers that he needed. Thus he did not want to get in the wrong religion. I just recommend you come and participate in some Sunday school. You will learn much, but there is no pressure. Just come and have fun with us. You will find we are ordinary everyday joes just like you and not the oddball, cultist, James Jones envisioned mysteria presented so much by others. as a former agnostic I promise.

Well we may be cultist as in eating. We eat at about every extra after church activity. Geez do we eat over here in Hawaii.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Sachi001

[bytebear]

The whole "less valiant in the premortal existence" thing was really bothering me, so I'm glad to hear that it's not actual doctrine. Which goes back to my original post here, that for an outsider (and even for insiders I think) it gets really difficult to tell what's official doctrine and what's just speculation.

To be clear it is speculation, but I get the idea. The Bible and church doctrine does teach that certain people were "pre-ordained" to fulfill certain missions. Adam was chosen to be the first man. Jeremiah 1:5 says that he was ordained a prophet before birth. So why did they get chosen? Were they more valiant in the pre-existence? And so them what about the poor native who was born in a jungle with no way to find the true church? What about the person born in a village in communist China? How will they ever find God? Are they being punished because God thought they deserved it? And historically, what about the man borin into slavery, or with dark skin in a world full of prejudice? Is God punishing him for something he did in his previous life?

The answer from the church is no. A very few men are chosen as special messengers, and born at a time and place where they can fulfill their missions. It was no coincidence that Joseph Smith was born at a time of religious revivals and near where the golden plates were buried. But that doesn't mean that Smith was pre-destined to be a prophet. He could have rejected the calling, or perhaps never decided to pray for guidance. But God knew Joseph (and Adam and Jeremiah) so he placed them where they needed to be. (Note the difference between pre-ordained and pre-destined - All worthy young men are called to be missionaries, but not all will be)

But, those are very unique cases.

I believe in God's infinite wisdom, He has had each of us born where we are able to grow and mature the best for our own personalities and potential. I also have no problem with God waiting until the time was right before allowing a people to gain certain blessings. Those who accept Christ despite such challenges are better blessed for it. And I see great blessings coming to Africa. Blessings that I believe could not have come any earlier.

[Someday]

Cooling,

First of all, I think it is great that you are asking questions and willing to put in the time and effort to understand our teachings. There is so much to tackle here that I am not quite sure where to start...

1. Missionaries are taught to discuss the first principles and ordinances of the gospel (1. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, 2. repentance, 3. Baptism by immersion, 4. The laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost). Anything beyond that comes from personal study and/or youthful speculation. While we believe that the family is the foundation of the church, the beliefs that some parents pass on to their children is just plain wrong. These children (some, not all) take these beliefs and pass them on to non-members while on their mission. While this is typically not done to mislead people, the result can be confusing for someone like yourself searching for the truth.

2. Let's not forget that a certain 14 year old boy once felt as you and decided to take his questions to the highest authority he could find - God himself. Personal revelation is a core belief in the church. As you progress in your personal study, your conversations, and your prayers, you will be able to confirm your findings directly with the Lord. Of course, as with any promise, there are some ground rules: 1. you must be willing to accept the Lord's answer, 2. you must be willing to keep an open mind, 3. you must be willing to be patient (as the answer will not always come right away).

3. There is a reason why we are encouraged to keep our studies focused on the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. Understanding the finer points of doctrine (deep doctrine as some like to put it) takes a thorough knowledge and faith in the first principles and ordinances. I equate it to learning Calculus without being proficient in simple math - you may get the general concept, but without the fecundation skills, you will never be able to properly apply the concepts. In other words, take your time to explore the basics (speaking with the missionaries is probably the best way to go about this), decide if this is the right path for you, then strive to understand the other points of doctrine/discussion that you are struggling with. The answers will come in time.

[skippy740]

Blacks and the Priesthood | Ask Gramps

[skippy740]

Thanks so much for the help here. So ignoring the controversy surrounding Brigham Young, does official Mormon Doctrine state that dark skin is a mark of lesser valiance in the pre-existence? I have read this in official church materials, but they were older ones and you guys said it was best to stick with the newer publications. So does anyone know if that's something that's considered unchanging doctrine? And if so, was there ever a reason given why God gave the revelation to change the policy regarding the priesthood?

No. A reason was never given, nor would it ever be given.

Click on the link in my signature and click on the Q & A video clip.

There is a difference between doctrine and practice. You are reading a LOT about the church and are undoubtedly familiar with the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage and our history with the practice of Polygamy.

The practice of polygamy ended in the late 1800's. Did that change the doctrine?

We were given the law of consecration in the D&C. Today, we pay tithes instead of live the law of consecration.

Did the doctrine change? No. The Lord adapted the doctrine to the weakness of the saints to tithes, instead of the law of consecration.

The doctrines and teachings of the church are eternal. The culture and the practices of the church may change, but that won't change the doctrine.

I hope this helps.

[skippy740]

I will attempt to answer a couple of your questions with things I've learned (qualifier that this is not "official doctrine").

1. Black skin: there was curse placed on certain people like Cain or the Lamanites. The curse was a loss of salvation, the priesthood, and that God would no longer be their god. That was the curse. There was a mark used to identify those who had that curse and the mark was black, or darkened, skin. This doesn't mean that when the curse was removed that the mark automagically disappears. Some today have that curse, but do not carry the "mark" (ie white people)...

I want to be very delicate in the way I respond to this. Please forgive me if it doesn't come across as I intend.

In the scriptures, black doesn't always mean skin color. Many times it refers to countenance. The curse is the separation from the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Samuel 16:7

7But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

Now, let's take a look at a very interesting verse in The Book of Mormon.

Alma 55:4-8

4 And now it came to pass that when Moroni had said these words, he caused that a search should be made among his men, that perhaps he might find a man who was a descendant of Laman among them.

5 And it came to pass that they found one, whose name was Laman; and he was one of the servants of the king who was murdered by Amalickiah.

6 Now Moroni caused that Laman and a small number of his men should go forth unto the guards who were over the Nephites.

7 Now the Nephites were guarded in the city of Gid; therefore Moroni appointed Laman and caused that a small number of men should go with him.

8 And when it was evening Laman went to the guards who were over the Nephites, and behold, they saw him coming and they hailed him; but he saith unto them: Fear not; behold, I am a Lamanite. Behold, we have escaped from the Nephites, and they sleep; and behold we have taken of their wine and brought with us.

Moroni had to search among his people for a decendant of Laman because none of them stood out because of their skin color. They had to identify themselves as Lamanites because the Lamanites could not look at them and tell whether they were Nephites or Lamanites.

Jeremiah 8:21 & 14:2

21 For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt; I am black; astonishment hath taken hold on me.

2 Judah mourneth, and the gates thereof languish; they are black unto the ground; and the cry of Jerusalem is gone up.

Now, by quoting these verses directly from the LDS.org website, black means dejected and not a literal skin color.

2 Nephi 5:21

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

So, what is meant by "skin" in this passage?

2 Nephi 30:6

6 And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.

The word "pure" was actually "white" in the past. It was a correction made. If you click on "scales" it states "TG (topical guide) darkness, spiritual, TG spiritual blindness.

So, it was incorrectly inferred that skin colors literally changed, when it was the countenance and the lightness of the Spirit of the Lord that we can infer from these passages.

You'll note that anytime it mentioned a change in skin color, it was in the chapter headings &/or footnotes... not necessarily in the scripture verses themselves.

Something to think about.

Edited August 3, 2011 by skippy740

[JohnnyRudick]

Well... The chatters on the mormon site are missionaries. That's why it bothered me that he denied the teaching so much.

I appreciate your explanations :) If you're up for it here are a few more things I'm confused about.

1. Eternal families. Okay, I get the concept, I understand how sealings work, I know that only marriage in the temple lasts longer than till death. None of that confuses me. What confuses me is what would stop me from being with my family anyway, if we were all in the same kingdom of Heaven? Like, say my family and I live excellent lives of charity and humility and service to others, but we never really feel the testimony of or join the Mormon church. Since we're not members we're clearly not sealed, so we'd probably wind up in the terrestrial kingdom, right? So what stops my family from still being eternal? Is it just that my spouse and I aren't officially married? Couldn't we still be together as a family if we chose to? What if I'd rather be with my family on a voluntary basis than being "Sealed" to them? I don't imagine that God would have armed sentries keeping us from rejoining each other in the afterlife or anything. . .

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead

raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not

quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not

that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat,

or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased

him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there

is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of

fishes, and another of birds.

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies

terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory

of the terrestrial is another.

1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another

glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star

differeth from another star in glory.

Now what we do here will dictate with what body we will be raised

in the resurrection and what will be the capabilities of those bodies.

If you are raised with a terrestrial body it will be more then difficult

to live Celestial eternity.

[JudoMinja]

Wow. I just came into this thread and there is so much! You have a lot of great questions cooling, and I think it is great that you are asking them in the "proper spirit". Many times, people come asking these questions just looking to start up an argument or cause problems. From what I've read of your posts, you really genuinely just want to know the answers and are very curious about the doctrine and teachings of the church. I applaud you for that!

I'm going to flesh some things out, even though you've already had some of this answered...

First of all, the only "doctrine" of the church is what is found in the standard works (the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants), the Articles of Faith, and any official proclamations from the presidency of the church. So far, we have two such proclamations- The Living Christ and The Family. EVERYTHING else that we teach or are taught in the church is considered supplemental and can contain a collection of speculations and opinions. Typically, if it is coming from the presidency and/or the apostles we can trust that it is mostly accurate, but we still have to use our own judgment and heavily rely on personal revelation.

There are many things we are taught that are very different from other Christain churches. The basics of these teachings are generally accepted as "truth" among LDS members even if they are not considered "doctrinal". When we get into the nitty-gritty details though, everyone has their own little spin to add to it. Not all members care to get into all the details of these teachings, so there are plenty out there who only know the "basics". It is all they learned and all they care to learn. They have a testimony that it is true and that is good enough for them, but because they don't delve any deeper this can result in confusion and misunderstanding when speaking with someone who does want to know more about those topics. Missionaries are not excluded from this, and there are many missionaries who just don't know or understand everything there is out there about the church. For a better understanding of those "basics", I really like the youtube channel- mormonsmadesimple.

Much of what you are asking revolves around one of these "basic" teachings- the Plan of Salvation. As you already know, we believe that we lived with God in a premortal existence. However, as we were only creations of spirit, we were incomplete. God had a plan that would allow us to gain bodies and experiences that would make us more like Him- mortality. Coming to this mortal earth, we are given the opportunity to learn mastery of the flesh. It is difficult and we are weak and make mistakes. An atonement was provided for us through Jesus Christ to help us overcome those mistakes. After this life, we will be judged and "placed" accordingly. Instead of just going to "heaven" or "hell", our destination is split into separate kingdoms based on our work, valiance, and the desire of our hearts. Almost everyone gets placed in one of these kingdoms with a very, very select few being cast out to "outer darkness" or what would generally be considered "hell". Placement in any kingdom is considered "salvation". The celestial kingdom is the highest "placement" we can receive and is considered "exaltation". Only those who are exalted will be "gods" and "sealed" to their families.

Obtaining "godhood" is not necessarily something everyone will want. I sometimes wonder if I really want the responsibility of my own worlds and spirit children, and I am sure there are many others out there who would be much happier just serving as "angels" and "messengers" in the lower kingdoms. I think that where we desire to be will play a major role in where we end up. In part, it is dependant on the covenants we make and keep. If you are never sealed in the temple (yourself or by proxy), you will never have the opportunity to be in the highest rung of the celestial kingdom. However, before this mortal time is over, everyone will have had the opportunity to make that decision. Being part of a lesser kingdom does not mean we will be cut off from our loved ones. We cannot move up to any glory higher than what we've obtained, but those who are "higher" than us are free to travel and "visit". We will all still be connected in some shape or form, and I believe we will all be happy with what we have obtained.

Family is very central to God's plans and this great Plan of Salvation. Men and women are created differently with unique divine purposes. The reason child-bearing and raising is so heavily stressed is because it is a part of the woman's divine nature. It is something only the woman can do- what she was designed to do. That does not mean it is her ONLY purpose or that the man is not responsible for helping her in her duties. In the "perfect" family, everything would be done with love and tendernace, with both the man and the woman equally sharing in their responsibilities and duties. Of course, no family is perfect and we all do things a little bit differently. As long as you are fulfilling your duties as a mother, exactly how you go about doing it doesn't really matter. Some are stay-at-home mom's until their children are grown and out of the house, some just until their children are school age, and some not at all. The important thing is that you are teaching and rearing them in righteousness. And if you decide you just don't want to have kids, that's okay too.

Well, I know I didn't answer all your questions, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head, and others have done a great job of giving you some good information on the areas I didn't cover. I hope you're finding all of this useful! And remember always to pray and seek personal revelation on these matters. It is something we as LDS consider very important. It is how you will gain a testimony of the truth and how you will find yourself personally progressing in your understanding of these deeper spiritual matters.

[ruthiechan]

The whole "less valiant in the premortal existence" thing was really bothering me, so I'm glad to hear that it's not actual doctrine. Which goes back to my original post here, that for an outsider (and even for insiders I think) it gets really difficult to tell what's official doctrine and what's just speculation.

Here is my opinion on why blacks were not given the Priesthood.

Because the people of the church were not ready for that yet.

I do not believe it had anything to do with the blacks being ready for it, I believe they were. Thus, I believe it had everything to do with everyone else not being ready for it. I think people would have left the church because of it, and I think the persecution toward us would have increased, and thus, our black brothers and sisters were required to wait for the good of all. I am grateful for their patience.

Again, this is my opinion, not doctrine. I think the less valiant in the premortal existence is nonsense and why that is nonsense was answered already quite well.

Have you watched the Joseph Smith movie, the new one (the older one is terribly done)? It's great: Joseph Smith Movie on youtube

So, if I'm understanding you guys correctly, the sealings are only necessary if you want your family to grow and progress in the afterlife, right?

We do not really know what power the sealing has other than the potential of achieving godhood. BTW, our potential for godhood is taught in the current Gospel Principles manual: Gospel Principles Chapter 47

So we will all still be ourselves and be free to live out eternity with our earthly family if we so choose, just so long as they're not in a higher kingdom of Heaven?

That is my understanding. I, also, personally believe that you can be worthy of the celestial kingdom and still choose not to go there.

And I remember hearing something about how spirits can visit the lower kingdoms, but not visit higher kingdoms than the one they're assigned to. Is that correct?

That is my understanding, yes. It makes sense since God the Father was able to visit the Earth in order to talk to Joseph Smith.

And is the scripture clear on exactly what sealing means when it comes to children? Like, say you have three children and they are all sealed to you. Those children grow up and get married in the temple and sealed to spouses of their own, and those spouses have faithful sealed families as well... Where would those kids wind up in relation to you?

No, it's not clear in the scriptures in the way you ask it, but I view it as chain mail. You are sealed to your husband, but then you're children are sealed to you, who are also sealed to husbands whose children are sealed to them and so on and so forth. I think it's one big extended family linked together to create something beautiful, and you don't want a piece to be missing.

I was also taught that because I am sealed as a daughter to my parents that I am then also sealed to my brothers and sisters as well.

I think the sealing power is important in a way we can not fully comprehend right now. There's something about it that makes it so important that having families sealed together is the ultimate goal after salvation.

Oh, here is a fantastic talk about salvation and exaltation given by Elder Nelson, a member of the 12 apostles: Salvation and Exaltation

I'm sorry if anyone isn't giving you the answers because of the milk before meat bit. We're all different and want the meat at different times. I figure, if you're asking the question, then you're ready to know about it.

About being female and having babies and mama working, the best answer to that is when you find a spouse to prayerfully discuss it and ask for personal revelation on the matter. I knew a family where the right thing to do for them was for the Dad to be a stay at home Dad and the mom go out and work. It's like that sometimes.

[Blackmarch]

Hello everyone, I'm not a member of the church but I have been looking into your beliefs and history for some time now and I find myself getting really confused on several points. I'm not trying to attack any of the scriptures or doctrines or anything like that. I'm really just trying to get a better grasp on what's what, and hoping someone here can maybe give me a couple of solid answers.

So first, what officially qualifies as "Doctrine"? I mean, I've read Gospel Principles and it states that official doctrine includes the Book of Mormon, the KJV of the bible, Doctrines and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, along with the teachings of the church's current prophet. But then when I ask about things I've read in those sources I get told that those things are not official doctrine. And some things I've read in those sources I'm told are wrong and that the church never taught them. I know that certain things like endowment ceremonies and temple rituals are considered sacred, and thus most LDS are hesitant to talk about them, but the basic principles and beliefs aren't supposed to be secret, are they? Because I've talked to several members of the church about certain issues and been given different answers by all of them. Where is the best place to find official church teachings and answers? I was told to go to the official LDS.net website, but I actually got several different answers there as well, which left me even more confused.

I'd be happy to pose some of the specific questions that I have to the board if you guys feel like you'd be up for answering them. First though, I just want to know what or who I can count on as an official source of reliable information, since I can't exactly call up the prophet and ask him.

The Book of Mormon, the bible, the Pearl of Great Price, and the doctrine and covenants.... if folks want to nitpick what is official and what isn't, then those are the guides to be used.

Different thaings have been taught in the church because sometimes individuals have different understandings from what is taught in those books.

Sometimes people don't know certain things have been taught in church (whether or not it was officially supposed to).

Many time God gives a bit to get us started, but then we have to work to figure the rest out.. or really work to get God to share the rest.

I'd be happy to answer questions.

[mnn727]

other church literature I've read like "The 14 Points of Following the Prophet." ?

I've been in the Church almost 20 years not and have never heard of "The 14 Points of Following the Prophet."

Where are you getting this info from?

[skippy740]

It was incorporated in (I think) last fall's general conference by 2 different speakers.

[mnn727]

It was incorporated in (I think) last fall's general conference by 2 different speakers.

Sure don't remember that.

[Jason_J]

Sure don't remember that.

It was actually the October 2010 General Conference where two speakers covered the "Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet", which was a talk given by President Benson in 1980:

Obedience to the Prophets

Our Very Survival

[AGStacker]

Okay... Well the first one that I'm having a rough time with is the whole teaching about men becoming gods. I have a copy of Gospel Principles from the '70s and in it there are numerous references to how we will become gods and have our own spirit children in the CK. From what I read I believed that the church taught that our entire reason for leaving the CK in the first place was so that we could progress to the next stage of development, which was godhood. We couldn't achieve that growth without testing ourselves first on earth. It's all pretty plainly laid out in the older literature from the church, but I feel like the past twenty years have seen a lot of waffling on the controversial issues, and I find it a little sad. When I first read the story of the pre-existence and the ultimate goal of returning and being exalted as gods I thought it was really interesting and unique. But now when I try and ask about it I get told that we can become like gods but not actual gods. That doesn't make any sense to me. The way I understood it when I read about it was that we would still answer to our Heavenly Father, as he would still be our creator, but we would be gods responsible for making our own creations once we became exalted. So if that teaching changed, why did it change? I feel like it used to be official doctrine, but now it's just speculation. What changed that? And if doctrine can become speculation, then how do we know what doctrine is actually doctrine?

Cooling, as the world becomes more wicked they will accept less and less truths. Essentially the Church has to tone down their aggressive stance on many issues and focus more on love and service. People don't understand that Satan uses governments to restrict people and their inalienable rights.

As government becomes more corrupt they directly and indirectly deceive the people. They fight against religions although many people may not realize it. Satan is attacking at all fronts and the Church needs to be careful about what they say. They are doing this so that they can continue forward with missionary work and when all the missionaries are called home their tone will once again be more aggressive.

Government's, including the United States, seek to control all peoples and organizations. It is harder for them to do this in America because of our Founding Father's and their inspiration and insight from God.

The Church isn't gathering the wheat and not destroying the tares. This job will be when all nations are ripe for destruction. The doctrine remains the same but less taught. We do believe that we can become like Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father. If this includes organizing worlds for the benefit of intelligences than so be it.

The Church is true. The people are not perfect but they try. Some more than others. The doctrine is sound and "tastes good".

[AGStacker]

Regarding blacks and the priesthood. Cooling, please listen to me on this. Most of the members of the Church do not understand why blacks were not promised the priesthood. It is so simple and easy to understand but when I explain it they never ever understand it.

So Noah has 3 sons. Shem, Ham and Japeth. We know that Ham's lineage carried the Negro race. When Ham uncovers his father's nakedness in the Bible he is cursed to become the servant of man. Listen, this is so easy to see! Abraham comes from Shem's seed and Abraham is the father of the priesthood. Abraham has Issac and Issac has Jacob. Jacob's name is changed to Israel and this is where we get the tribes of Israel.

Ham's seed was never promised any priesthood blessings. The Bible is full of instances where one people or another are promised blessings that are not extended to all. Ham's seed and Japeth's seed were not included in this. God extended His love and mercy to Ham's seed eventually. It was not a "if you are dark you don't receive the priesthood" but it extended itself even into South American countries.

Do not let this trouble you. The priesthood blessings belonged to Abraham's seed. Ham's and Japeth's seed were not promised these blessing and now are.

[heatwaveo8]

I am familiar with the whole milk before meat principle. Is it possible that some of my confusion comes from well-meaning members who think they need to with-hold information from me because I might not be ready for it? I mean, I get where they're coming from, but that seems sort of dishonest to me. A chatter on Mormon.net actually told me that the church did not and had never taught that men could become gods. That's clearly not true, and I don't know if he was confused or lying to me, but either way it made me not want to ask the official church site any more questions.

I do understand most of the basics. I've done a lot of reading and asking questions and studying and pondering, but I just don't know what to do when the answers I get contradict each other.

Hi there. I know there have been a lot of posts here, but I wanted to chime in. I would think of it like setting up a company. When you set up a company, you want to start small, with a solid structure to build on and only a few workers, and then build the company slowly but surely. You don't want to make yourself known and attract customers too quickly, otherwise your responsibilities and demands would be too much, and your company would become chaotic, and customer satisfaction would fall through the roof and the company would fail.

In much the same way, it's the same with the Church. Your focus right now should be on building a solid foundation through praying and gaining a testimony of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, and the Church. As you do this, start by applying the things the missionaries have taught you to your life, and the Lord will help you to understand the meat of Church doctrine over time. Gaining knowledge of the meat too fast will make you confused. Church members know this, so we are careful not to explain things too deeply to new members.

The following are the doctrines you should be learning about right now, and enhancing your knowledge of on your own time: The restoration of the Church through Joseph Smith, The Plan of Salvation, Faith, Repentence, Baptism, Receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, Enduring to the End.

Also, the following are commandments I would suggest studying about in further detail: Pray often, Study the Scriptures, Keep the Sabbath Day Holy, Baptism and Confirmation, Follow the Prophet, the 10 Commandments, the Law of Chastity, the Word of Wisdom, the Law of Tithing, the Law of Fasting, giving Tithes and Offerings, and Obeying and honoring the Law.

I would also suggest learning these Christlike Attributes: Hope, Charity, Virtue, Patience, Humility, Diligence, Obedience.

Many of these above principles should be discussed in the Gospel Principles manual. You can also find conference talks about these.

For reading, I would suggest the Scriptures, Gospel Principles, True to the Faith, The March 2008 and October 2007 Ensigns on lds.org, and the April 2011 General Conference addresses (May 2011 Ensign, on lds.org).

If you choose to join the Church, I would suggest getting a copy of Preach My Gospel and Jesus the Christ, though the latter of the two should be read carefully and maybe a year or two after you are baptized, as a lot of the text can be difficult to understand and requires the guidance of the Holy Ghost. I would read Preach My Gospel right away after your baptism. You should be able to get copies of True to the Faith and Preach my Gospel from your ward, without paying for it yourself.

Hope this is helpful for you.