I'm a confused investigator

[DKM88]

Also, how does my statement about how men can become Gods dishonest? Are you a member of the Church?

Finally, do you believe it was God's view that polygamy should be an institution of the Church? More importantly, do you believe God sanctioned polyandry? I don't. I can sort of wrap my head around polygamy, but I don't believe in a God that would sanction polyandry...not for one second.

[Matthew0059]

DKM:

I understand your concerns, but this really isn't the place to discuss this, as cooling was in the midst of the discussion. I invite you to start your own thread, and I invite everyone else to get back to where you were beforehand.

If we don't do this, the thread could very easily be ruined and unsalvagable.

[cooling]

Hey, no worries. I kinda appreciate what DKM was saying because I think a large portion of why I can't see myself committing to the church is because I don't trust the church. In researching there are so many things that I've found that leaders are purposely vague about. There are things they flat out lie about. Most of the stuff that the church sweeps under the rug is stuff that wouldn't have been that big of a deal to me if I hadn't had to find out for myself.

I guess I'm going off topic a bit in my own thread here, but I do believe that the church as a whole would benefit from a much more open policy on the less savory bits of its history. I hope this doesn't offend anyone horribly, but I think the church that was started by Joseph Smith was a MUCH different church than the one continued by Brigham Young. He was absolutely a racist, and a lot of the black spots on the church's history happened under his rule. The fact that he did bad things doesn't make the church any less true, but the church lying about or downplaying what he did do does make the church less trustworthy.

JudoMinja-- Your thoughts on the WoW are precisely the same as mine. Keeping the WoW and the law of chastity are, to me, the same as keeping a vow of silence in a monastary. I don't think God cares if we eat lots of meat or drink or smoke or even have lots of sex. I don't think any of those things are actual sins. What I do think is that control over our most basic and animal desires is the key to self-mastery. Our most primal urges tend to be towards sex and hunger. By fasting and abstaining we're becoming stronger than our desires, and on a spiritual level that's a really good thing. I think the problem is that people don't realize that self-mastery is all about reaching a higher plane of existence in this life. They beat themselves up and feel like terrible people because they can't give up coffee or masturbation. Failure to overcome your desires does not make you a bad person.

[JudoMinja]

You guys have to realize something. When you start saying things like "this was revealed from God, but we weren't ready, so it was retracted" or "we don't know why, but the Lord guided it all", it's going to sound kind of funny.

What if you asked a JW about blood transfusions and they gave their explanation of why they are evil. You'd probably say they were idiotic. They will claim it's God's will that we get rid of all blood transfusions and that they "know" this is what God wants and it's true. You would say they were a freaking looney toon for saying that. Others outside the Church may say the same about your responses to things that seem a bit "out there."

Of course it sounds funny. I won't deny that. But I believe it is true. God DOES retract things we aren't ready for. He's done it before. He did it with the Isrealites with Moses. It really does happen. God teaches line upon line, and sometimes he gives us things we aren't really ready for and pulls them back. I think it's a way of "testing the waters" if you will. It gives us a hint of what the next step is going to be, so that we know what we will be expected to live up to next once we've mastered what we already have.

A belief only sounds idiotic if you don't believe it yourself and cannot make a connection to understand why someone else believes it. If a JW explained to me why they thought blood transfusions were evil, and I could understand their explanation but not agree with it, I wouldn't think it idiotic. I just wouldn't agree.

I won't make excuses for my beliefs. I believe what I believe, whether other people find it funny or not. It makes sense to me, and I won't deny it just because it sounds "funny".

What's wrong with saying, "Hey, I know Brigham Young was racist. It wasn't God's will that Blacks didn't receive the priesthood because Joseph Smith ordained blacks to the priesthood. There was even a black seventy in his day. Brigham Young was simply an American with typical racial views. Luckily, it's changed now."

This might be true. I wouldn't personally say it exactly how you worded it, because I'm not sure I completely agree. I'd probably say something more like "I think it is possible Brigham Young was racist, however I think blacks were denied the Priesthood because the majority of the world was racist and not ready for the Priesthood to be extended to everyone."

What's wrong with saying, "Yes, women are second class citizens in Mormondom. It's really a throw-back to the 1800's, but it's steadily changing. Slowly but surely."

I don't believe this is true, so therefore I would never say it.

What's wrong with saying, "Yeah, the Church has always taught that men become Gods. GBH said in an interview that he 'didn't know' if we taught that or not. But it's always been taught, at least in a round about way. It may be strange, but the whole idea of eternal progression is core to our doctrine."

I have no problem saying this. In fact, I have said it before to many people, and explained it to many people.

What's wrong with saying, "Polygamy was a disaster. Polyandry was even worse. It's a major black spot for the Church. It was a mistake made by men that probably became a bit overzealous in their leadership roles. It's been discontinued, so there aren't any issues with it anymore."

I would never say this, because I don't agree with it. I don't think polygamy was a disaster. I think there were some problems with it, but it wasn't a disaster. There have been several instances in the scriptures where people had multiple wives. I can understand the purpose of polygamy, but then... I'm an animal fanatic and have studied many many many "family" styles. They each have their purpose and work under different conditions. If we were ever to take up polygamy again (lawfully), I wouldn't have a problem with it. I think it is just something that is not necessary at this time and causes too much contention with world views.

The problem is we consider the Church to be perfect. The Church is run by men. They make executive decisions all the time that aren't right. So who do you blame? I guess we could just say that the Lord's will was done and we just don't understand it. But I think that's a bit of a cop out.

Some people think the church is perfect, yes. But these are only those who don't take the time to study out these issues and form solid opinions on them. A lot of people will take things at face value, and if they don't understand something or don't care to think about it, they just shove it aside and get on with their life. They have a testimony of the truth and what the Lord requires of them and that's enough. Others, like yourself and a good number of the people who use this site, feel a need to dig deeper and really understand everything and come to terms with it. At that point we have formed opinions and begin voicing them.

I make it a point to avoid contentious conversations on topics I don't know much about. For a long time, I never would have said much to anyone about a lot of these things, and there are still some topics I just won't touch because I haven't really formed an opinion or I feel that I don't have enough knowledge or experience to really make a good contribution.

Some people just DON'T CARE about the history, and really... that's okay. Because when we boil it all down to what really matters, we don't have to explain our history. We don't have to understand everything our past leaders did. We don't have to understand all the details about the gospel. What matters is what we DO. That we hold fast to our testimonies of what we DO know, and we ACT on them. That we cleave unto "the iron rod" and strive to build in ourselves Christ-like characteristics. I could stop coming to this site and stop researching church history today, and you know what? It wouldn't matter.

That is why the leaders of the church tend to be vague or not touch these topics. Because when it comes to our salvation and exhaltation, they just don't matter. Really. They don't. So instead of wasting their time hashing it out with everyone and trying to explain it in every detail so that everyone is happy, the leaders focus on what matters- working on "proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints, and redeeming the dead". It's all about DOING. And it's all very basic. They constantly stress reading the scriptures, praying, and getting a personal witness and a personal testimony, because THAT is what matters. Our testimony is what drives us to ACT, to strive to be like Christ and work toward perfection.

The important parts of the gospel are very basic. Draw closer to God. Use this life as a time to do good and prepare to meet Him- through service, repentance, etc. Live in accordance with your heart and spirit, and strive to always be moving forward- making yourself better. That is what matters.

[Blackmarch]

1. I concede your point that most things in religion sound "funny."

2. Do you have any proof that Brigham Young wasn't racist? It's ok that he was! I'm perfectly fine with that. What American wasn't racist at that time?! Is it that hard to believe? Joseph Smith ordained Blacks to the priesthood. Why did God all of the sudden change his mind when Joseph died?! More than likely, Brigham was racist. But I'm cool with that.

considering what culture BY grew up in, and was surrounded by, I would be surprised if there was absolutely nothing from him that could possibly be construed as racist. However was he the hater that critics make him out to be? no.

We do not know why BY blocked the priesthood, however as he was not stopped nor as the following prophet did not reverse it, it was accepted by or inspired by the Lord. As to why we don't really know.

I know of people who were affeced by it, of those, some thought it was bad, and others thought it was a great blessing.

3. I believe it was Richard G. Scott that said women won't be "third-class" citizens in heaven. The fact is, in our current world of equality, women are second class. The only way to get around it is to redefine equality. We aren't in the 1800's anymore. Oh, and polygamy...need I say more?

ok so i'm not following your logic here-

you start off with someones claim that women will not be 3rd class in heaven... then stop and go right to a perception of how women are in the world today without connecting the two ideas. and whats polygamy to do with either? We have three incomplete ideas here, with extremely little context, even after regoing over the last few series of posts.

this world is certainly not the same as what heaven will be.

Many of your arguments hearken to the 'pay, pray, and obey' mindset of many members today. Be open! Be truthful! It's a wonderful thing, I promise you.

I've been on both sides of the fence.. but the "Pay,pray, and be obedient" works and has turned out to be one of the better of the actions i've gone through.

Be truthful? do you belive those who have been voicing their opinions are lying or deceptive to some extent?

Be open- i've been open to a great very many things both within and outside of the church. I"m much more inclined to consider something when people don't go making absolute statements left and right, or can show enough to make such plausible. A grand majority of the history, science and evidences available today are not very binding to only one conclusion in my experience.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Blackmarch

[DKM88]

ok so i'm not following your logic here-

you start off with someones claim that women will not be 3rd class in heaven... then stop and go right to a perception of how women are in the world today without connecting the two ideas. and whats polygamy to do with either? We have three incomplete ideas here, with extremely little context, even after regoing over the last few series of posts.

this world is certainly not the same as what heaven will be.

Ok. Scott said they wouldn't be "third class" citizens. What does that tell you? I didn't want to harp on it, so I left it at that. But since you insist...why didn't he say second class citizens? I find it funny. Sure, maybe he simply misspoke, but it's still funny that people were complaining that women weren't treated as equals and he said "hey, you won't be third class in heaven" (so maybe second class?)

Point is, we are behind on equality between sexes in the Church.

[NeuroTypical]

Behind on equality? Not sure how you get that. There was a study a while ago comparing the LDS church to other major denominations in the US. We topped the list for female levels of education and income. Additionally, you can barely go six months without hearing our leaders talk about zero tolerance policies regarding abusive husbands and fathers, and how anyone who does that is in serious jeopardy of losing their preisthood and their family too, and we'd better take immediate action to fix things.

Maybe we have different definitions about what equality means?

[DKM88]

Behind on equality? Not sure how you get that. There was a study a while ago comparing the LDS church to other major denominations in the US. We topped the list for female levels of education and income. Additionally, you can barely go six months without hearing our leaders talk about zero tolerance policies regarding abusive husbands and fathers, and how anyone who does that is in serious jeopardy of losing their preisthood and their family too, and we'd better take immediate action to fix things.

Maybe we have different definitions about what equality means?

The whole idea of polygamy treats women like cattle. And even though we have outlawed it, it's still practiced in the temple and is assumed to be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom. Sorry, but I have daughters and I would NEVER expect them to accept that.

The idea that women are educated has absolutely nothing to do with equality. It means that women went to school. That doesn't mean that when they go to Church or in their homes they are treated as equals. The man presides in the home and at Church. The woman must listen to the man as he listens to God. If I were a woman I'd take that as my father in heaven doesn't want to communicate with me directly. How sad is that?

Women are equal in the Church if they learn to accept their roles. That's what it really boils down to.

[NeuroTypical]

The whole idea of polygamy treats women like cattle.

Interesting understanding. I wonder if you're aware of the history in the USA of how women got the right to vote? You can make a halfway decent case that it was fought over polygamy. The antipolygamist forces in the Eastern part of the country thought they could gain the necessary votes to end polygamy in Utah, if women could vote. The mormons thought otherwise. So in 1869, women got the right to vote - and voted in favor of polygamy.

They then lost the right via the Edmunds-Tucker antipolygamy act in 1887.

Then gained it back in 1895 with support of the church.

(It didn't get enshrined in the US constitution until 1920.)

The idea that women are educated has absolutely nothing to do with equality.

Best things to do with statements like that, is let them sit there. They say quite a bit about the person making the statement.

The woman must listen to the man as he listens to God. If I were a woman I'd take that as my father in heaven doesn't want to communicate with me directly. How sad is that?

Quite sad, as it's not true. The word "must" doesn't apply. And I think I met a woman once - she didn't draw that conclusion at all.

Women are equal in the Church if they learn to accept their roles.

As a man, I'm in the same boat.

[pam]

If I were a woman I'd take that as my father in heaven doesn't want to communicate with me directly. How sad is that?

As a woman I feel quite the contrary. I feel I have a special bond between myself and my Father in Heaven. As I also felt between myself and my earthly father.

I really wish you would quit insinuating you know what all women feel.

[bytebear]

The whole idea of polygamy treats women like cattle. And even though we have outlawed it, it's still practiced in the temple and is assumed to be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom. Sorry, but I have daughters and I would NEVER expect them to accept that.

The idea that women are educated has absolutely nothing to do with equality. It means that women went to school. That doesn't mean that when they go to Church or in their homes they are treated as equals. The man presides in the home and at Church. The woman must listen to the man as he listens to God. If I were a woman I'd take that as my father in heaven doesn't want to communicate with me directly. How sad is that?

Women are equal in the Church if they learn to accept their roles. That's what it really boils down to.

I am reminded of Monty Python's Life of Brian. The conversation goes like this:

I want to be a woman

You can't be a woman. You're a man.

But I want to be a woman.

Why do you want to be a woman.

So I can have babies.

You can't have babies.

Why not?

Because it's just not possible.

But I want to.

But you can't.

That's discrimination.

It doesn't matter, you can't do it.

But that's unfair. I want the right to have babies.

Fine, you can have the right to have babies.

[NoGreaterLove]

Women are equal in the Church if they learn to accept their roles. That's what it really boils down to.

Absolutely! You are 100% correct. Do you accept your role as the sex God made you? If you are a man, do you accept the fact that you can not bear children? If your are a woman, do you accept the fact that you are the bearer of children. God himself created male and female to fulfill two different roles. But we as a society just can not accept that so we create he/she's, try to impregnate men, create test tube babies, have sex change operations, etc.

It is God's plan to have men and women separate some of their responsibilities in life. A man is nothing without the woman. A women is nothing without the man. God would cease to be God if he was alone and had no wife. What makes them God is the combining of the two roles. This allows creation of man to extend throughout eternity. This glorifies God.

If you truly understood how we view the importance of women in our Celestial society, you would not be making such statements. It is your lack of understanding that prompts such statements.

[DKM88]

Best things to do with statements like that, is let them sit there. They say quite a bit about the person making the statement.

Very nice. You are insinuating that because Mormon women are educated that there must be a lack of oppression. Just because a woman has a BA or MA doesn't mean things are magically equal. It means she's probably more able to critically think her way to understanding that things aren't exactly peachy in Mormondom. Some women are fine living in patriarchal societies and organizations and never fighting for anything. That's fine if they're like that. But not all women are.

Your insinuations say a lot about you. Good job.

[bettyjbass]

Hello Investigators as Saints only if you would give the spirit of God, a chance to allow him to come into your heart, asking as the missionaries says to ask "Our Heavenly Father", to give you wisdom to understand with faith and recieve forgiveness of his spirit to know with in as I was a high investigator speaker when I join the church that is true in heart of man or woman who except the modern day gospel truth. Also the decernment to know the difference, so remember the scripture James 3:5, and allow no one to change your heart from the love of God, no matter who gets in themseleves satan doubt telling you otherwise. Because Faith is a substance of things hope for and the evidence of things yet not seen. We look to "our heavenly father', truth within touching our heart to know what we experience in him that was hated by those in the world that will not fully recieve the truth. Although the people is untruth, but the church is of one spirit in God, that is reaching for the true saints that is true to his Word. For if you in doubt begin to shout, as you call out so the devil can get out! In Jesus Name to the investigators who need to be"Faith" drawn out of sins to be believers who does wins! Investigators are Our Heavenly Father, Investimates for the Testiment! I say this, who fast ,and out last what is holding you not to fast! The true church is the true hearts that BEliEve! In Jesus Name! Touch everyone who reads this Lord Jesus!

[JudoMinja]

DKM-

I am an educated woman with a strong faith in the gospel. I was raised in a good loving home where both my parents work in an EQUAL partnership. They depend on one another's strengths to make up for their weaknesses. They accept and embrace the roles they are naturally equipped to fulfill. They make all their decisions together, each having an equal voice. Sometimes, they disagree and have to do some give and take. In these instances- sometimes they do what my father wants, and sometimes they do what my mother wants. Their relationship is the greatest example I have ever seen of an equal partnership between a man and woman, husband and wife, and I do not think that my mom is at all treated like a "lesser" to my father.

This relationship is the way it is because of the church. Have you read and do you understand the Proclamation to the Family? There is a division, yes. But this division does not mean women are treated as less than men. It does not mean we are seen as subordinates. It does not mean we are missing out on any "rights" that we have to fight for.

I mistakenly married a very abusive man. He tried to treat me like a piece of property. I know what it is like to be mistreated, beaten down, and seen as a "second class" citizen. I know what it is like to have my thoughts and opinions overlooked and deemed unimportant simply because I am a woman. The man who treated me that way had major problems with the church and tried to cut me off, because he KNEW that if I continued going to church I would be LIBERATED from his opression. He wanted to be in control of me, and the church taught me that this was not the way things are supposed to be. The church teaches that I am a Daughter of GOD with a divine heritage and purpose, and that I am an EQUAL of my fellow man. When I left him, the teachings of the church offered me far greater therapy and recooperation than anything else could have.

I know for a fact, from personal experience, that the church does not treat women as second-class. The church does not try to force me into anything, does not overlook me, does not lessen or oppress me. As a single parent, I have to take on both parenting roles. I work, cook, clean, shop, discipline, pay the bills, teach, love, nurture, change the oil in the car, take care of the plumbing in the bathroom, fix broken cupboards, read stories, play games, etc. I do everything, and I understand why there is a separation of roles. There are things I am better equipped to do as a woman, and things I could really use some male help with. Admitting I am not capable of everything does not make me LESS than a man. It just makes me different. And I'm okay with that.

[Tyler90AZ]

What do the posters think about islamic women wearing veils? Is that oppressing to women?

Edited September 10, 2011 by Tyler90AZ

[pam]

How about this thread get back on track or it will be closed. The OP asked what constitutes doctrine?

The direction this thread took is far from what the OP intended.

Edited September 11, 2011 by pam

[bettyjbass]

JundoMinja, I believe such strong women in the hand of "Our Heavenly Father", do knows the heart as daugthers to him and his word will be tested in many ways to as the man be as one with a woman. Although word from the old testiment comes to my heart when I have read your post response to know it takes the heart, mind, soul, and strength to first love God. Then we together can love as man & woman which is nieghbors who can love each other for the greater work in marriage. When I being in deep love with my husband, and many things I can see that goes against the doctrine of my faith, and yet waiting patiently on God, to answer my prayer, because as women of God, we love so deep as Jesus, mother loved Joseph, whom never had sex, and he thought she was cheating, but it was God, love of the "Holy Ghost" that had birth Jesus inside the womb of Mary. So consider that we have a father that will give women/daughters the desires of their heart. Sometimes women or man whom has been so badly hurt should hold fast to the doctrine of truth to believe by faith in "Our Heavenly Father", who will answer us and give that man or woman of God, that heart in love together whom wants to see God face. When we chases God, love as one together as man and woman. We are after God, own heart. This is a willing faith enduring race as one in God, word to believe as one flesh becoming husband and wife. As you said about your mother and father, which is soulmates to God, giving gift for a man and woman who chooses to not burn and join together in marriage. I love you sister and stay intune ponder to God, about everything, because the doctrine in Word to God, message say for women to multiply. So we fellowship at church in relief society as women of strenght to be the daughters of strong faith until we meet again. In Jesus Name. Amen!

[bettyjbass]

Tyler90Az, 'Our Heavenly Father God", is strong in many ways that do not think what we thinks, and no one is suppose to Jugde the faith in heart of what is on the outside. When this is a choice of what is meaning to your heart to ask God, by pondering, fasting, believing in the d of the outward man hearts. Difference of what meets the heart of God. I know that obeying God, first will bring that strong respect of what God, tells women to be loved. He does supply our needs, not to complain want we have on or look like. Faith is unseemly from the hope with evidence from our heart to believe. I do not judge no man belief in how to serve God, when it is a devine choice to choose to Love, God. Now how he asks of us to respect, when he is no respector of persons. I can say that you should ask of God, if you are coming to a knowledge of something that is asking question of the dephts against your heart in belief to the way you dress, because we serve God, and not man, to judge and consider the Word, when God has many names! It has been spreaded for faith to believe. I know from repenting and a strong woman of many troubles and hurts as a woman whom just believe in God, so deep that even my husband being a former Pastor, tells me that I am wrong about a lot of things. Yes! I do listen, but ask my first husband first that is God, whom says I am a spirit set aside from the thoughts of man, he answers us differently, and I have learn to Not judge no one faith to believe. Exspecially when God, loved Adam and Eve!

[bettyjbass]

Pam and No Greater Love: The username of "Our Heavenly Father", sums up every word to what is said There is no greater love than this. Women with strong love will be challenged within heart to stay loved, as to be loved. I love all my sisters to become the Greater Love", with the word is the sword holding faith stronger to be organized together as one, even until the truth arises that we will have great sorrows and conceptions multiplying, but together we enjoy the life in becomeing gifts determine to love God!

[bettyjbass]

Pam I mean not that taking the OP which asked what constitute doctrine, but there are women that need to know in many ways to sound doctrine to understand that we come together for truth by one faith to believe that takes close heed as we recieve until the true church of "Our heavenly Father", can reach those women that want a true change to become what we know that is strong willing to the doctrine of rightgeous to " Our Heavenly Father', way of teaching us as women to reach even to the women that is struggling with there faith as wifves, mothers all daughters whom are hurt in many ways that even want the Faith of our church to help them understand. When our thoughts is not like the father thoughts that those needs to have a hand until our father answers the needs for them to hear his true voice to change from what ever doctrine that can not meet the hearts of the church they resides for truth. We can not Judge! But an helping hand we suppose to have in being not women giving hurtful standards agasint a man or woman doctrine. God, says sanitfy them by thy truth. Everyone feels they have the truth, but has God, says he really needs to be the one to shown of them? Because many or still confuse, so we do not judge just try to reach after God, own heart through those whom have knowlegde that could be tradtionally beaten with belief. Although many still may have out of placement of where they should be. God, do not forces no one to except him. It comes by believeing in the Word of truth to how we ponder, ask, wait believe on "Our Heavenly Father" to change the heart of those which may have knowlegde for as their capacity to how to recieve. Power is more faith to believe, then recieve, then percieve, achieve, now we comes in him to relieved. In Jesus Name. Amen!

[bettyjbass]

Pam, with prayer to "Our Heavenly Father", I will stay away from this discussion thread! May "Our Havenly Father", keep us as women, daugthers, mothers, sister's, to his Word. I meant not change the doctrine in labors to God, mission to love everyone. I say thank you God, through Jesus Christ, everyday of my life. Exspecially in a world full of jestures and complaints. I am so sorry to be intruding on anyone toes. I just have a strong spirit that loves God, for truth of his Word, and not of myself! again, I am sorry, please forgive me. Bye! Bye!

[cooling]

I think the thread drift is probably unstoppable at this point, but that's okay. I got a lot of answers, and more importantly, I got a lot of new insight into things that there aren't really answers to. I will probably go back into lurking mode for a while anyway, but I'll just get a new thread going if I want to discuss anymore questions. Thanks to everyone for being so helpful.

[NeuroTypical]

In case nobody has mentioned it yet, your avatar rocks.