Packing heat at church

[Dravin]

My thinking is similar blackknight. Though in my case as it's just me and my wife there are no children to gather and the act of covering the direction of the intruder consists of leveling a gun at the bedroom door.

[JohnnyRudick]

This statememt

So in truth you cannot attest about people who would have no issue in killing a Christian for being a Christian - you really have no experience where this has happened. That is what I meant by being a little fantastic. Thank you for clearing that up - I feel a little better now.

The Traveler

I will admit that I personally have not seen another put to death for what he/she personally believed in.

I have seen the hatred in the eye of some who I have introduced Jews to.

I have seen the same look and heard the same hateful speech concerning Christians.

When that Nut killed all those young people at that camp I was told by some that the guy that did it was a christian. and Christians were potentially of the same cloth.

That some of the brightest writers were write we would be better off if we could some way get rid of all the religious people.

I get some of this from people in my own family.

What is boiling up underneath us slowly (much too slowly) is the same hatred that was coming up under the Jews, Polish, and people of the Eastern mountains of Germany.

It finally happened that no one cared that these people were disappearing.

Jesus warned his followers of this same kind of hatred, and it did come about throughout the centuries and it will happen again,

[Soulsearcher]

This statememt

and this statememt

In all my life I have never ever met a single person of the "type" you are talking about and I have met and talked with convicted murders in prison. Never have I know or heard of a murder to quiet someone over beliefs. I am not saying such mentalities do not exist - just that I have never encountered it.

So in truth you cannot attest about people who would have no issue in killing a Christian for being a Christian - you really have no experience where this has happened. That is what I meant by being a little fantastic. Thank you for clearing that up - I feel a little better now.

The Traveler

Yet we have seen people kill for their beliefs and saw a large number of people killed for who they were in germany not that long ago. I can attest to people who have said they see killing christians as a good way to stop a lot of grief in the world. i can attest to many people who say killing muslims is a great way to bring peace and i can attest to a number of people who say there's nothing wrong with killing gays or people who perform abortions because of what they believe. Again the intent doesn't mean they will, but not sure these are the people i want carrying weapons around just in case their talk is a little more serious than just idle banter. Also in the cases of gays and abortion doctors we know for sure there have been murders based solely on the fact they were gay or performing legal abortions and people believed they were wrong. I'm sure we can find stories past or present of people being harmed or killed for their religious beliefs as well.

Also as response to LM, I'm in Canada, we don't have much in the way of legal concealed weapons, even knives have a very limited allowance (10 cm or 2.5 inches) and fire arms are almost unheard of for concealed weapons.

[HoosierGuy]

Guns and churches, no matter what church, do not go together. I would not even want to see a gun on a police officer attending service.

[FunkyTown]

Guns and churches, no matter what church, do not go together. I would not even want to see a gun on a police officer attending service.

I think I'm gonna go with the church leadership on this.

They've set down the rules and I trust them in this. Some people think they're uninspired and want to bring guns. Some people think they're uninspired and want nobody to be armed.

I think I'll take the middle way and trust the First Presidency since they've already addressed this exact thing.

[Avrham]

first time I read the thread heading I thought it was about Packing "wheat" lol I then I realised you where talking about weapons (I used too get the impression that most Christians in the US carry a Bible and AK 47, its not much of a issue here I think in Australia but my father was a SOG Member(like SWAT)He was armed with a HK5 easily concealed under his suite jacket he went everywhere with it holidays we grew up with the attitude that a policeman is a 24/7job and Church was no exception:)

[Traveler]

My scenario was missing information for a reason. The best answer is to put the gun down, pick up the baby and get kids, the wife and everybody you can out and to do so as quickly and as non-treating to the intruders as possible. Everyone in the family should be trained how to get out of the house as quickly as possible in case of an emergence - even if you have to split up. Intruders are not the only reasons for emergency evacuations and every family should have a plan and know what to do and where to go and meet up afterwards. Getting out should be plan A. There may be other plans (B, C, and D) but getting out is the best and safest.

Some Facts:

. You do not know for sure who the intruder is - it may be a drunk and confused neighbor - but it may not. Not knowing their armaments, numbers and intensions puts you at a tremendous disadvantage and therefore the most likely to suffer the most causalities in any lethal exchange.

. Telling the intruders where you are and if you are armed takes away any advantage you could have had and gives the intruder(s) the advantage and you the disadvantage trying to guess what their next move will be and what you might do to counter it.

. I did mention that there are armed burglars that have entered homes and killed inhabitants. This means that if these intruders have picked your home they have come prepared with a plan in place and if confronted they will kill without hesitation.

It has always been interesting to me that anyone would deliberately put themselves in an urban combat situation with a hand gun. If I were going to make a stand to defend my family my life or anything worth dying for, it would not be with a pistol. In fact - it would not be with any less than (more than one) semi automatic 12 gauge shot gun (short barrel). I do not think I would want anything legal. I would not play fair and would not give up any advantage I would not initiate any action in which I did not have complete advantage and control. Good luck to the rest of you. One last note - a cornered and wounded predator is by far the most dangerous - not least dangerous of all.

The Traveler

[mnn727]

There is a reason its called CONCEALED carry.

That said our H.P. classes do get somewhat heated at times (believe me with the discussions in our group there is no sleeping)

[blackknight5k]

My scenario was missing information for a reason. The best answer is to put the gun down, pick up the baby and get kids, the wife and everybody you can out and to do so as quickly and as non-treating to the intruders as possible. Everyone in the family should be trained how to get out of the house as quickly as possible in case of an emergence - even if you have to split up. Intruders are not the only reasons for emergency evacuations and every family should have a plan and know what to do and where to go and meet up afterwards. Getting out should be plan A. There may be other plans (B, C, and D) but getting out is the best and safest.

Some Facts:

. You do not know for sure who the intruder is - it may be a drunk and confused neighbor - but it may not. Not knowing their armaments, numbers and intensions puts you at a tremendous disadvantage and therefore the most likely to suffer the most causalities in any lethal exchange.

. Telling the intruders where you are and if you are armed takes away any advantage you could have had and gives the intruder(s) the advantage and you the disadvantage trying to guess what their next move will be and what you might do to counter it.

. I did mention that there are armed burglars that have entered homes and killed inhabitants. This means that if these intruders have picked your home they have come prepared with a plan in place and if confronted they will kill without hesitation.

It has always been interesting to me that anyone would deliberately put themselves in an urban combat situation with a hand gun. If I were going to make a stand to defend my family my life or anything worth dying for, it would not be with a pistol. In fact - it would not be with any less than (more than one) semi automatic 12 gauge shot gun (short barrel). I do not think I would want anything legal. I would not play fair and would not give up any advantage I would not initiate any action in which I did not have complete advantage and control. Good luck to the rest of you. One last note - a cornered and wounded predator is by far the most dangerous - not least dangerous of all.

The Traveler

My responses are based upon lots of research and suggestions made by self defense experts, lawyers versed in NC law, and law enforcement personnel. Your opinion means nothing to me, no offense, as I respect those above people's advice much more. If you don't feel like owning a firearm, then by all means don't own one.

Edited August 23, 2011 by blackknight5k
adding quote

[mnn727]

Wearing a seat belt, carrying a spare tire, and keeping food storage do not put anyone else in danger in any sense.

Neither does carrying a handgun.

Guns don't kill people all by themselves any more than a car does.

[Traveler]

Yet we have seen people kill for their beliefs and saw a large number of people killed for who they were in germany not that long ago. I can attest to people who have said they see killing christians as a good way to stop a lot of grief in the world. i can attest to many people who say killing muslims is a great way to bring peace and i can attest to a number of people who say there's nothing wrong with killing gays or people who perform abortions because of what they believe. Again the intent doesn't mean they will, but not sure these are the people i want carrying weapons around just in case their talk is a little more serious than just idle banter. Also in the cases of gays and abortion doctors we know for sure there have been murders based solely on the fact they were gay or performing legal abortions and people believed they were wrong. I'm sure we can find stories past or present of people being harmed or killed for their religious beliefs as well.

Also as response to LM, I'm in Canada, we don't have much in the way of legal concealed weapons, even knives have a very limited allowance (10 cm or 2.5 inches) and fire arms are almost unheard of for concealed weapons.

I still think you are being way overly dramatic - I honestly do not believe you are really included in the “we”. When (what year) were you born?

Yet we have seen people kill for their beliefs and saw a large number of people killed for who they were in germany not that long ago.

BTW - testifying concerning someone else’s opinion or belief is not a “real” testament and there is not a viable court in any free nation that would consider such to be presented as evidence - and for good reason.

The Traveler

[Spartan117]

Guns don't kill people all by themselves any more than a car does.

I agree soooo much with how you worded your statement there, the inclusion of "all by themselves" is the key part of that sentence IMHO.

[Traveler]

My responses are based upon lots of research and suggestions made by self defense experts, lawyers versed in NC law, and law enforcement personnel. Your opinion means nothing to me, no offense, as I respect those above people's advice much more. If you don't feel like owning a firearm, then by all means don't own one.

I would like to see any reference you have indicating that an armed killer should be approached by an individual - ever. More I would like to see any recommendation where a group of armed individuals should be confronted by a single armed individual. I do not believe that is recommended even for trained police wearing body armor.

Like I said - Good luck.

The Traveler

[Guest gopecon]

If someone is in my house and is not welcome, the chances are that there will not be an easy way to get everyone out safely and quickly. There are just not that many good exit options that would not be cut off by someone. If I hear them and see them first, the advantage is mine. I welcome the idea of shouting out a threat to get them to leave voluntarily - I'm not bloodthirsty - but having the family try to escape is not always practical. It's not that "an armed killer should be approached", but once they are in the building, escape may not be nearly as viable of an option as getting a first shot off.

[blackknight5k]

I would like to see any reference you have indicating that an armed killer should be approached by an individual - ever. More I would like to see any recommendation where a group of armed individuals should be confronted by a single armed individual. I do not believe that is recommended even for trained police wearing body armor.

Like I said - Good luck.

The Traveler

Sure, let me have the self defense instructors create accounts on this site just to argue with you.

I didn't say I would approach them, I would stay in an easily defensible area and shout out that 1) I have a firearm and 2) I will use it, also 3) the police are on their way. I was trying to stay generic. I am no longer going to argue with you only have deaf ears for this conversation.

Edited August 23, 2011 by beefche
unnecessary part

[JohnnyRudick]

Guns and churches, no matter what church, do not go together. I would not even want to see a gun on a police officer attending service.

That is one of the reasons it is a "concealed" weapon.

[Snow]

Not only do I carry a handgun to Church, as a tie tack I wear the claw of an endangered koala bear I shot with.

Guns rule!

[Dravin]

Not only do I carry a handgun to Church, as a tie tack I wear the claw of an endangered koala bear I shot with.

Guns rule!

Wait... you shot the koala bear with your handgun? You went shooting with the koala bear? Or you've managed to use the koala's claw as a gun?

[JohnnyRudick]

Not only do I carry a handgun to Church, as a tie tack I wear the claw of an endangered koala bear I shot with.

Guns rule!

That is why we call it concealed:cool:

[Snow]

Wait... you shot the koala bear with your handgun? You went shooting with the koala bear? Or you've managed to use the koala's claw as a gun?

Me and my hunt'n buddies Cletus Bull and Jeb Slick went a hunt'n after Church. This was right after the Y2K dealeo when we barricaded ourselves in our bomb shelter to protect ourselves from the marauding hordes that we thought would be destroying civilization at 12:01 am. When that didn't happen we took the extra ammo and went look'n for bald eagle to make celebrat'n stew. We didn't get no eagle but did get plenty of possum and koala bear.

[JohnnyRudick]

Me and my hunt'n buddies Cletus Bull and Jeb Slick went a hunt'n after Church. This was right after the Y2K dealeo when we barricaded ourselves in our bomb shelter to protect ourselves from the marauding hordes that we thought would be destroying civilization at 12:01 am. When that didn't happen we took the extra ammo and went look'n for bald eagle to make celebrat'n stew. We didn't get no eagle but did get plenty of possum and koala bear.

We did get some marauding hordes but they all disappeared

when we had them over for supper:cool:

Well most of 'em anyways:D

[Soulsearcher]

I still think you are being way overly dramatic - I honestly do not believe you are really included in the “we”. When (what year) were you born?

BTW - testifying concerning someone else’s opinion or belief is not a “real” testament and there is not a viable court in any free nation that would consider such to be presented as evidence - and for good reason.

The Traveler

First off I'm not in a court of law. I can tell you what i hear or what is said directly to me. There are also hear say exemptions in courts to allow some secondhand information as evidence depending on the how or why. That's neither here nor there.

We was being used as humanity. WE have seen people killed for their beliefs. If you want to get right down to it Joseph Smith ended up dying because of what he believed. You can call it dramatic but it happens.

from wikipedia

Murders

In the U.S., violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[15][16]

• March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.
• July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003.
• December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.
• January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.
• October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.
• May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at church in Wichita, Kansas.[17]

[edit] Attempted murder, assault, and kidnapping

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[18] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:[15][19][20]

• August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
• July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.
• December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.
• October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.[21]
• January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.

Killing people who believed what they were doing was right by people who believed they themselves were right. So I'm not sure where stating things most people know as common sense equates to dramatic or fantastical. People are killed for being different all the time, including having different beliefs. Some would say Sept 11 is a great example of this. Of course Sept 11 is overly dramatic and had nothing to do with any conflict of beliefs so it's a moot point.

[NeuroTypical]

My scenario was missing information for a reason. The best answer is to put the gun down, pick up the baby and get kids, the wife and everybody you can out and to do so as quickly and as non-treating to the intruders as possible.

With all due respect, you don't get to make that claim. When you have such a large number of intelligent, experienced people arguing the exact opposite, your claim of 'best answer' doesn't hold any water. People running away have been shot in the back in situations you describe. As previously mentioned, some states have a duty to retreat, other states have castle doctrine - a direct refutation that your answer is 'best'. The police who taught my wife's self defense in the home class, sure the heck disagree with you.

No traveler, the 'best answer' isn't as cut and dried as you'd like it to be.

You do not know for sure who the intruder is - it may be a drunk and confused neighbor - but it may not.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Are you saying a drunk and confused neighbor cannot be a deadly threat to your family, and must never be treated as such? Are you ignoring the answers to your situation where we gave verbal warnings first, or that we'd be content with just scaring the bad guys away? I mean, you are correct - in your situation we don't know who the intruder is. The possibilities do not prove you right.

Not knowing their armaments, numbers and intensions puts you at a tremendous disadvantage and therefore the most likely to suffer the most causalities in any lethal exchange.

Meh - 'most likely' is something you are making up. You assume they know my armaments, numbers and intentions. You assume they're intent on doing no harm unless someone puts up a fight. You assume the encounter happens in a vacuum - that a vigorous and sucessful defense of private property doesn't make a criminal element disband or go away.

I mean yeah, argue your point all you like. But you're not proving you've got the 'best answer'. You have an answer.

Telling the intruders where you are and if you are armed takes away any advantage you could have had and gives the intruder(s) the advantage and you the disadvantage trying to guess what their next move will be and what you might do to counter it.

Telling a burglar who expected an empty house that their life is in danger, is a fine and dandy way to end an encounter peacefully. Planning on mindlessly running out of your own house ("even if you have to split up" as you stated) could leave spouse and children in danger.

And your advice to put the gun down before you abandon your residence to an unknown intruder? Why on earth would anyone think that's a good idea? Not just running away, but giving your gun to the intruder? Are you sure you don't want to rethink that one a little?

I did mention that there are armed burglars that have entered homes and killed inhabitants. This means that if these intruders have picked your home they have come prepared with a plan in place and if confronted they will kill without hesitation.

Sounds like people who need to be stopped, not run away from. I'm not sure I'd want to live with "well, they killed my neighbor, but I was able to run away, so they killed another neighbor the next week". I mean, if you want to do that, fine by me. I am not here telling you my answer is 'the best answer'. But allow me a different course of action.

One last note - a cornered and wounded predator is by far the most dangerous - not least dangerous of all.

I agree wholeheartedly. If you recall my answer, I'm the cornered predator.

Folks, please keep in mind that the right to self-defense is enshrined not only in our laws, but in the D&C as well. The BoM contains a wonderful story of the folks who kept their oath of peace and accomplished miracles even though a few were hewn down. The BoM also contains lots of stories of righteous folks fighting and killing in self-defense.

Traveler's take on things is certainly valid. But no, it's not "the best answer" as he claims.

[Traveler]

With all due respect, you don't get to make that claim. When you have such a large number of intelligent, experienced people arguing the exact opposite, your claim of 'best answer' doesn't hold any water. People running away have been shot in the back in situations you describe. As previously mentioned, some states have a duty to retreat, other states have castle doctrine - a direct refutation that your answer is 'best'. The police who taught my wife's self defense in the home class, sure the heck disagree with you.

No traveler, the 'best answer' isn't as cut and dried as you'd like it to be.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Are you saying a drunk and confused neighbor cannot be a deadly threat to your family, and must never be treated as such? Are you ignoring the answers to your situation where we gave verbal warnings first, or that we'd be content with just scaring the bad guys away? I mean, you are correct - in your situation we don't know who the intruder is. The possibilities do not prove you right.

Meh - 'most likely' is something you are making up. You assume they know my armaments, numbers and intentions. You assume they're intent on doing no harm unless someone puts up a fight. You assume the encounter happens in a vacuum - that a vigorous and sucessful defense of private property doesn't make a criminal element disband or go away.

I mean yeah, argue your point all you like. But you're not proving you've got the 'best answer'. You have an answer.

Telling a burglar who expected an empty house that their life is in danger, is a fine and dandy way to end an encounter peacefully. Planning on mindlessly running out of your own house ("even if you have to split up" as you stated) could leave spouse and children in danger.

And your advice to put the gun down before you abandon your residence to an unknown intruder? Why on earth would anyone think that's a good idea? Not just running away, but giving your gun to the intruder? Are you sure you don't want to rethink that one a little?

Sounds like people who need to be stopped, not run away from. I'm not sure I'd want to live with "well, they killed my neighbor, but I was able to run away, so they killed another neighbor the next week". I mean, if you want to do that, fine by me. I am not here telling you my answer is 'the best answer'. But allow me a different course of action.

I agree wholeheartedly. If you recall my answer, I'm the cornered predator.

Folks, please keep in mind that the right to self-defense is enshrined not only in our laws, but in the D&C as well. The BoM contains a wonderful story of the folks who kept their oath of peace and accomplished miracles even though a few were hewn down. The BoM also contains lots of stories of righteous folks fighting and killing in self-defense.

Traveler's take on things is certainly valid. But no, it's not "the best answer" as he claims.

As long as you have means to escape - you are not cornered.

I served in the military and never was I trained in the tactic of identifying my position and armaments as a means for advantage in conflict. All I asked is for such a link. I am also unaware of any professional or any other recommendation to initiate deadly threats, as an individual without backup in a scenario where you are outnumbered with inferior firepower. While serving in the military I was trained that in conditions where I was outnumbered; that it is usually a good idea to avoid capture - it was called escape.

If you are engaging in an activity with a deadly weapon for conditions that you have never faced or trained for (let alone recently) - all I can say is good luck with that concept. On more than one occasion, while hunting I have watched as someone unintentionally did something that caused their firearm to discharge either into themselves or someone else. I have seen an individual shoot the horse they were sitting on just because they got excited and unknowingly pulled the trigger. I have also observed a person trying to take a shot with their safety on, realize that the safety was on then in the excitement of the moment, take the safety off and accidently discharge their weapon just missing (by inches) others in their party.

I am not saying guns should never be use in self defense - What I am saying are a couple of things:

. Don’t sacrifice something that is more important for something that is less important. How important to you is human life? What is your feeling about abortion? Is it okay to take a life if your individual wellbeing is threatened?

. Whenever you engage in deadly conflict (or think of such things or plan such things) - make sure all other possible and reasonable options have been completely exhausted.

This thread is about taking a gun to church. I realize that there are times when someone with a gun ought to be at church. I was in charge of security for the funeral of a ward member, Barney Clark that had national attention as the first artificial heart transplant. There were sever uniformed and plain clothe security in attendance that were armed - I will not go into all the details but we had received official threats from individuals that were at the funeral - but from the responses on this forum - am glad and thankful that most of you were not there.

The Traveler

[Guest gopecon]

From Traveler

". Don’t sacrifice something that is more important for something that is less important. How important to you is human life? What is your feeling about abortion? Is it okay to take a life if your individual wellbeing is threatened?

. Whenever you engage in deadly conflict (or think of such things or plan such things) - make sure all other possible and reasonable options have been completely exhausted."

Abortion has nothing to do with this thread - babies do not break into the womb. Scripture makes it clear that self defense is an acceptable reaction when threatened. I value human life and hope to never have to shoot someone - I'd hold them in place and wait for the cops if possible - but it's a valid and moral option to take someone out who has entered your home to do your family harm. In Castle Doctrine states it's been determined that you can reasonably assume that someone breaking into your home is dangerous.

Alma 48:10 And thus he was preparing to support their liberty, their lands, their wives, and their children, and their peace, and that they might live unto the Lord their God, and that they might maintain that which was called by their enemies the cause of Christians.

48:14 Now the Nephites were taught to defend themselves against their enemies, even to the shedding of blood if it were necessary; yea, and they were also taught never to give an offense, yea, and never to raise the sword except it were against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives.

To the second point, waiting till all possible and reasonable options have been exhausted before pulling out a gun will likely end up removing that option from you.