Is the Devil real? Should we care?

[prisonchaplain]

Vort, I read my scriptures more literally than what your interpretation offers. Jesus not bothering to correct? His silence more likely indicates that he is tracking with their perception. Some devils might be more attached to their subject for any variety of reasons. This is not impossible, or even unlikely.

I recall when the servant came to the prophet Elijah (or was it Elisha?), and worriedly told him that an army was approaching to take him. The prophet prayed that God would open his eyes, and the servant then saw that the angels that surrounded and protected them outnumbered the approaching enemies.

God spares us the vision to see the spirit realm because it would likely overwhelm us, and even drive some insane. Having said all that, I still contend that our default is not to focus on spirits and principalities, but rather on sweet communion with the Holy Spirit.

[Matthew0059]

The discussion I'd like to follow would be about the mechanics of how Satan works. This isn't something I've heard or read a lot in any religious literature. So I'm kind of at a loss.

How does Satan work in the hearts of men? Through temptation and deceit whereby he convinces us to act in a manner that is at odds with God's designated plan and organization.

How does Satan work to present us with challenges? In the same manner! They key to understanding how the devil works is to understand that there is intelligence in every particle of manner we are surrounded with in this Creation. Thus, every particle of matter (at the smallest possible level) is guided by an intelligence that has a degree of independence relative to the sphere it operates in. A good introduction to this choice doctrine is W. Cleon Skousen's "A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement".

Now, the ancient Hebrews properly understood Satan (the devil) as an "adversary" and "the spoiler". The adversary to what, and the spoiler of what? The adversary to order and progression (refinement) and the spoiler of God's established order! Satan's power lies in the ability to manipulate existing structure and organization- i.e., God establishes a church and Satan strives to get his followers to destroy that church, either by crushing it from without or dissolving it from within. God puts Adam and Eve in a garden and gives them commandments, and the adversary shows up and tempts Eve to destroy the setup by partaking of the forbidden fruit.

Now, as for Satan's ability to manipulate the physical world- God has set boundaries that Satan cannot violate (though he'd surely love to). Satan cannot, for instance, command a mountain to move and be obeyed (although God can). Now, this is the boundaries of my knowledge so what follows is just my opinion, but I think Satan is a manifestation of the entropy that is a universal constant in a Telestial sphere (everyting decreases/regresses in a Telestial sphere; stays the same in a Terrestrial one; progresses/refines/increases in a Celestial one). That entropy comes from disobedient matter that does not continue to act according to a higher order.

The great challenges of this Telestial sphere is overcoming Satan (who tempts the core intelligence of our being; our little "I AM") and overcoming 'entropy' (which is the sum result of disobedient matter).

[Snow]

Jesus did exorcise demons. His followers have done so for centuries. Much more common, however, is to discern right from wrong. Whether Satan "whispers" bad thoughts into our heads, or "leads" trouble our way, may be largely irrelevent. The best antedote is to be filled with the Spirit.

What's more likely...? Magical, invisible creature infested and possessed human beings and then controlled them or that superstitious, gullible, uneducated people saw someone with some malady like epileptic seizures and explained as devil possession?

[Snow]

We probably do better not to give the Devil too much attention. However, when he manifests, we should be prepared to counter him, through Christ's power.

If what way am I made better off by believing in a functional, present, devil?

Let's say we both see a sexy lady of questionable morals. I avoid the temptation by recalling my marital vows and family commitments. You avoid the temptation by countering the devil through Christ's power.

What's the difference?

[bytor2112]

If what way am I made better off by believing in a functional, present, devil?

Let's say we both see a sexy lady of questionable morals. I avoid the temptation by recalling my marital vows and family commitments. You avoid the temptation by countering the devil through Christ's power.

What's the difference?

Recalling your marital vows, might just remind you that if you give into the sexy temptress that you will get hung out to dry by your wife's lawyer, whereas the power of Christ may have created a person with righteous desires and thinks the very idea of giving into the sexy temptress is reprehensible. Maybe.

[prisonchaplain]

What's more likely...? Magical, invisible creature infested and possessed human beings and then controlled them or that superstitious, gullible, uneducated people saw someone with some malady like epileptic seizures and explained as devil possession?

It depends. God could work it either way. Scripture could be the writings of superstitious men, offering their perceptions of phenomena that we can easily explain today, by the only means they could comprehend--one involving angels and demons and miracles. On the other hand, God might actually choose to intervene frequently in our lives, and there might really be an extremely active spirit realm. The materialistic perspective is easier to quantify, and to study in purely scientific ways. The more spiritual understanding runs one the risk of seeming superstitious, and gullible.

With my belief that God is deeply involved in his creation, it is not difficult for me to also believe in literal demons and angels.

[prisonchaplain]

If what way am I made better off by believing in a functional, present, devil?

Let's say we both see a sexy lady of questionable morals. I avoid the temptation by recalling my marital vows and family commitments. You avoid the temptation by countering the devil through Christ's power.

What's the difference?

Not much. You rely on spiritual discipline, surely girded by Christ's help. I rely on unseen angelic forces to help me withstand perceived demonic temptation. In the end, both of us have put our faith to action.

[Traveler]

The child needed to be exorcised, the Pharisees needed to humble themselves. One is direct spiritual warfare, and the other is a matter of what you would call agency. We can cry out to heaven for a demonized child, but the soul who will not open his or her heart cannot be prayed into salvation. Our prayers help, but each person keeps their free will.

So, it's not a matter of which is worse, but rather what is the source? When it comes to being seduced, being tricked, being tempted, we retain or ability to resist the Devil--he will flee from us. To the soul possessed, we can command the demon to leave, in the name of Jesus. That exorcised soul can then choose to follow Christ or not. If not, scripture says they will be worse off than before the exoercism.

In a nut shell your answer troubles me - both in regard to scripture (1Cor 10:13) and personal experience. However, I see no reason to pursue further explanation. Thanks for your input perhaps on another day I may better understand - for now I will not press my issues.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Traveler - about 85% of this country (America) self identifies as Christian, but many of them are not active in a congregation, do not read the Bible or pray regularly, and do not really put a lot of effort into their discipleship. They may believe, but they are not "true believers" who are really committed to Christ in a meaningful way.

In LDS terms I think active vs. less active members is a similar comparison. Many less active LDS do not have the committment or testimonies to take the time being involved in their wards. Obviously each situation is different, but generally speaking that would be the difference between an LDS "true believer" and one who is not. A priesthood holder who has let his testimony dwindle will be very unlikely to be able to bless others with the faith and spirit needed to be effective.

Perhaps we are on the same page but my understanding of a Christian has less to do with attending church than more important things - kind of the notion that going to church no more makes a person a Christian (believer) than sleeping in a garage will make someone a Chevy.

Jesus said that his disciples (note that Jesus uses the term disciple and not believer) are identified by their fruits - granted one’s covenants are heavily involved in the fruits of loyalty and keeping commandments. But it does seem to me being a good Samaritan is more important than being a priest or Levite that studies the scriptures every day, attends to worship services, makes generous offerings but avoids the risk of helping someone in need in a very dangerous place and circumstance.

The Traveler

[Guest gopecon]

Traveler - I agree that going to church alone is not sufficient (or even necessary) to make one a true believer. My point was that merely identifying as Christian (of whatever denomination) does not mean that someone truly has life changing faith in Christ. Clearly we can't judge people's hearts and sift the wheat from the tares - that job is Christ's.

[Blackmarch]

Recent strings here concerning the Devil have broken down. The topic itself seems worthy, though, such discussions have a history of raising passions: Tempers Flare at Debate on the Devil - ABC News

So, I'll go first. Yes, the Devil is real. He, and demons, continue to molest people today. Possessions are real, but his influences is much more likely to be subtle.

Jesus did exorcise demons. His followers have done so for centuries. Much more common, however, is to discern right from wrong. Whether Satan "whispers" bad thoughts into our heads, or "leads" trouble our way, may be largely irrelevent. The best antedote is to be filled with the Spirit.

We probably do better not to give the Devil too much attention. However, when he manifests, we should be prepared to counter him, through Christ's power.

couldnt have said it better myself.

[JudoMinja]

How does Satan work in the hearts of men? Through temptation and deceit whereby he convinces us to act in a manner that is at odds with God's designated plan and organization.

How does Satan work to present us with challenges? In the same manner! They key to understanding how the devil works is to understand that there is intelligence in every particle of manner we are surrounded with in this Creation. Thus, every particle of matter (at the smallest possible level) is guided by an intelligence that has a degree of independence relative to the sphere it operates in. A good introduction to this choice doctrine is W. Cleon Skousen's "A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement".

Now, the ancient Hebrews properly understood Satan (the devil) as an "adversary" and "the spoiler". The adversary to what, and the spoiler of what? The adversary to order and progression (refinement) and the spoiler of God's established order! Satan's power lies in the ability to manipulate existing structure and organization- i.e., God establishes a church and Satan strives to get his followers to destroy that church, either by crushing it from without or dissolving it from within. God puts Adam and Eve in a garden and gives them commandments, and the adversary shows up and tempts Eve to destroy the setup by partaking of the forbidden fruit.

Now, as for Satan's ability to manipulate the physical world- God has set boundaries that Satan cannot violate (though he'd surely love to). Satan cannot, for instance, command a mountain to move and be obeyed (although God can). Now, this is the boundaries of my knowledge so what follows is just my opinion, but I think Satan is a manifestation of the entropy that is a universal constant in a Telestial sphere (everyting decreases/regresses in a Telestial sphere; stays the same in a Terrestrial one; progresses/refines/increases in a Celestial one). That entropy comes from disobedient matter that does not continue to act according to a higher order.

The great challenges of this Telestial sphere is overcoming Satan (who tempts the core intelligence of our being; our little "I AM") and overcoming 'entropy' (which is the sum result of disobedient matter).

I really like things like this, and you are right that Satan has certain "rules" he has to follow.... I don't know what all those rules are, but I remember hearing somewhere that Satan is given power over water? I don't know how true this is, but someone once told me that is why missionaries are not allowed to go swimming...

[Seminarysnoozer]

Recent strings here concerning the Devil have broken down. The topic itself seems worthy, though, such discussions have a history of raising passions: Tempers Flare at Debate on the Devil - ABC News

So, I'll go first. Yes, the Devil is real. He, and demons, continue to molest people today. Possessions are real, but his influences is much more likely to be subtle.

Jesus did exorcise demons. His followers have done so for centuries. Much more common, however, is to discern right from wrong. Whether Satan "whispers" bad thoughts into our heads, or "leads" trouble our way, may be largely irrelevent. The best antedote is to be filled with the Spirit.

We probably do better not to give the Devil too much attention. However, when he manifests, we should be prepared to counter him, through Christ's power.

I think Matthew's post says it pretty well ... just my 2 cents;

I think if one does not understand the dual nature of our being then one has to come up with another way in which the spectrum of good versus evil is made. LDS believe that we are dual beings, part carnal of the earth created by the fall of Adam (our body, which includes the wiring of our brain) and part spiritual, created by God our Father. That is all that is needed to create the spectrum of choices ranging from evil (carnal natures - natural man) to good (spiritual natures - how valiant we are and our ability to recognize spiritual truth).

The carnal nature of man is the default, this is why we say the natural man is an enemy to God and this is why Moses described man as nothing. So, if we do nothing to fight the slippery slope of our most influential self in this state, which is the carnal man, we become evil like the devil, becoming more and more self centered.

The spiritual nature, which is our true self, is hidden behind the veil of our carnal being. As we become less innocent it becomes less influential in our lives. The removal of innocence is the process of reinforcing carnal drives, promoting them. Becoming like a child is to listen to spiritual influences more than carnal. The carnal being is stronger in its influence unless we learn to listen to the still small voice of the spirit and recognize our past learning. This is what creates the test. That challenge alone, between our carnal self and spiritual self is the battle alone, we don't need additional demons and angels to mix it up any further.

Demons and angels are more involved in setting up the "instructions" of the test. They are involved in outlining the organized pathways of righteousness, i.e. the example of Christ and His church. Unless God needs me to help in the pathway development there is no need for any divine intervention as the test conditions are created by your dual being, carnal versus spiritual natures.

As we learn line upon line, 'demons and angels' may represent an easier way to understand this dual being concept. Now, with the fullness of the gospel we have, we can understand this concept in a more exact way.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[Traveler]

Traveler - I agree that going to church alone is not sufficient (or even necessary) to make one a true believer. My point was that merely identifying as Christian (of whatever denomination) does not mean that someone truly has life changing faith in Christ. Clearly we can't judge people's hearts and sift the wheat from the tares - that job is Christ's.

Clearly you did not understand - I never said anything close to "going to church alone". What I am trying to understand is the difference between a believer and a true believer. My point is that those that label themselves as true believers and others as "just believers" seem to me to be flurting with issues of pride.

When we say life changing - and then someone still commits a sin even though it was of extreme minor degree - is it because they were not a true believer. The concept of "true" believer seems to me to be a ugly step-sister kind of thing when they put on the glass slipper and declair; "See how well it fits me and not others".

The doctrine of true believer seems to me to be an excuse to see other believers wonded and suffering by the wayside and say to themselves - "Serves them right for not being TRUE believers". Then trun and walk off on the other side of the street.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I think Matthew's post says it pretty well ... just my 2 cents;

I think if one does not understand the dual nature of our being then one has to come up with another way in which the spectrum of good versus evil is made. LDS believe that we are dual beings, part carnal of the earth created by the fall of Adam (our body, which includes the wiring of our brain) and part spiritual, created by God our Father. That is all that is needed to create the spectrum of choices ranging from evil (carnal natures - natural man) to good (spiritual natures - how valiant we are and our ability to recognize spiritual truth).

The carnal nature of man is the default, this is why we say the natural man is an enemy to God and this is why Moses described man as nothing. So, if we do nothing to fight the slippery slope of our most influential self in this state, which is the carnal man, we become evil like the devil, becoming more and more self centered.

The spiritual nature, which is our true self, is hidden behind the veil of our carnal being. As we become less innocent it becomes less influential in our lives. The removal of innocence is the process of reinforcing carnal drives, promoting them. Becoming like a child is to listen to spiritual influences more than carnal. The carnal being is stronger in its influence unless we learn to listen to the still small voice of the spirit and recognize our past learning. This is what creates the test. That challenge alone, between our carnal self and spiritual self is the battle alone, we don't need additional demons and angels to mix it up any further.

Demons and angels are more involved in setting up the "instructions" of the test. They are involved in outlining the organized pathways of righteousness, i.e. the example of Christ and His church. Unless God needs me to help in the pathway development there is no need for any divine intervention as the test conditions are created by your dual being, carnal versus spiritual natures.

As we learn line upon line, 'demons and angels' may represent an easier way to understand this dual being concept. Now, with the fullness of the gospel we have, we can understand this concept in a more exact way.

The flaw I see in your “2 cents” - if there is a flaw (for the flaw may be mine and my view) has to do with you contrasting references to demons and angles. In essence it is my understanding that demons and angles are in many ways the same “kind” of beings it they have the same source the same capabilities, same methods, same makeup. They are both spiritual based creatures. The only difference is a propensity of what is symbolically referred to as light or darkness.

I believe we have in our fallen character; there are within us places of darkness that are easily accessible to beings that thrive in the dark. As I understand our state that darkness dominates and will eventually bring death. We have no choice to choose light and avoid death. We will all suffer that consequence.

It would seem to me that there is a way to return to “light” where there can be no darkness - but we can only have hints of that without knowledge - only faith. I believe the concept that we can be immune to darkness in this life - is in every sense of understanding is a flawed, delusional and disappointing concept that deprives us of an important and essential purpose to this life.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

The doctrine of true believer seems to me to be an excuse to see other believers wonded and suffering by the wayside and say to themselves - "Serves them right for not being TRUE believers". Then trun and walk off on the other side of the street.

The Traveler

I admire your precision with words. You choose them carefully, with an engineer's exactness. My usage may sometimes contain more "poetic license." For example, I consider a true believer to be a disciple. "Other believers" are not believers at all. They are pretenders, or hypocrites.

Having said that, I have no interest in labeling any individual. I simply recognize that at the judgement we will discover that not everyone who said to Jesus "Lord, Lord!" was true. To some Jesus will respond, "Depart from me, I never knew you."

It is God's role to judge. We are to come along side weaker brothers and sisters. We are to support those who struggle. It is not our place to condemn. Could it be that you read into some of our posts, recognizing that not everyone is who they say they are, a level of judgment and willingness to reject/dismiss that is not there?

[prisonchaplain]

In a nut shell your answer troubles me - both in regard to scripture (1Cor 10:13) and personal experience. However, I see no reason to pursue further explanation. Thanks for your input perhaps on another day I may better understand - for now I will not press my issues.

The Traveler

I'll not press you to press your issues. However, I am loathe to leave anyone troubled with my answers. You refer to this verse:

13 No temptation[a] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[b] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[c] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

And you say my answer troubles you. I'm not sure why. Is it because a person demonized, who is exorcised, can reject the one who delivers? Is it because I mentioned that a "child" could be demonized? Do you believe I am implying that followers of God can be demonized? Or, are you agreeing with others on this string who reject the whole demonizing phenomenon as primitive people spiritualizing natural illnesses? I can attempt to explain, if I know what the concern is. The most provocative one I'll tackle by saying that a "child" could well be an older adolescent, or even a young adult. I doubt we are speaking of ones too young to understand and be accountable for their spiritual activities.

[Traveler]

I admire your precision with words. You choose them carefully, with an engineer's exactness. My usage may sometimes contain more "poetic license." For example, I consider a true believer to be a disciple. "Other believers" are not believers at all. They are pretenders, or hypocrites.

Having said that, I have no interest in labeling any individual. I simply recognize that at the judgement we will discover that not everyone who said to Jesus "Lord, Lord!" was true. To some Jesus will respond, "Depart from me, I never knew you."

It is God's role to judge. We are to come along side weaker brothers and sisters. We are to support those who struggle. It is not our place to condemn. Could it be that you read into some of our posts, recognizing that not everyone is who they say they are, a level of judgment and willingness to reject/dismiss that is not there?

Seldom do I express how much I enjoy your posts PC. But with my engineering background I see judging to be a good thing - that is why G-d does it. If G-d does something then I think it to be a good thing that I should be about as well. What G-d does not do is condemn. That seems to me to be what Satan is about. Thus we should not do that. Sometimes words get in the way of understanding - but I think that because so many have “condemned” judgment - we think it evil and lose all the benefits of judgment thinking it is hardly different than condemning.

Please do not think I condemn in any way - your thoughts and posts. I find that in conversing with you I want to be a better person. A person more like what I judge you to be - even though I disagree almost completely with your concepts of demonic possessions. :)

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, thank you. Perhaps the following article will highlight that even those of us who take the New Testament accounts literally recognize that there can be tremendous danger when innocents are accused, and when normal maladies are erroneously assigned to demonic origins:

Saving Witches in Kolwezi | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction

[Matthew0059]

I really like things like this, and you are right that Satan has certain "rules" he has to follow.... I don't know what all those rules are, but I remember hearing somewhere that Satan is given power over water? I don't know how true this is, but someone once told me that is why missionaries are not allowed to go swimming...

I've heard this too, and IMO it isn't correct- I think the reason for keepig missionaries away from pools, oceans, etc. is that there were a few water-related deaths that led to the policy. Not all 19-year old boys, away from home for the first time, are wise and cautious.

However, the Lord did curse the waters in the last days by the mouth of John (D&C 61:14-16) for the purpose of keepig the land of ZION (America) safe. The oceans will get so bad that only the upright in heart will be able to cross them for the purpose of fleeing Babylon and coming to Zion. The wicked will try, at least once, to come over and take over our land... But that operation won't go according to their plan, as the Lord will fight for us.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The flaw I see in your “2 cents” - if there is a flaw (for the flaw may be mine and my view) has to do with you contrasting references to demons and angles. In essence it is my understanding that demons and angles are in many ways the same “kind” of beings it they have the same source the same capabilities, same methods, same makeup. They are both spiritual based creatures. The only difference is a propensity of what is symbolically referred to as light or darkness.

I believe we have in our fallen character; there are within us places of darkness that are easily accessible to beings that thrive in the dark. As I understand our state that darkness dominates and will eventually bring death. We have no choice to choose light and avoid death. We will all suffer that consequence.

It would seem to me that there is a way to return to “light” where there can be no darkness - but we can only have hints of that without knowledge - only faith. I believe the concept that we can be immune to darkness in this life - is in every sense of understanding is a flawed, delusional and disappointing concept that deprives us of an important and essential purpose to this life.

The Traveler

I don't see how this contradicts what I said, I am not seeing the "flaw".

I would just be more specific about it and say that the body is the source of the "fallen character". That is where the potential for darkness comes from. All temptations that Christ had to overcome pertain to those body/brain sources, hunger, power and pride. Neuroanatomy now allows us to show where those circuits are that drive such things. It is in our brains wiring. Christ forsake his body, He gave it up, He overcame it.

Also, our body is programed for death as a result of the Fall. Our spirits can be marred by our choices here but they don't become marred in and of themselves. I think this was Satan's biggest selling point in the pre-mortal war, 'why go down there and potentially scar your pristine spirit?' 'Why take that chance?'

The test of this life is to decide which influences we listen to the most, carnal influences emanating from the body of our dual being or righteous influences emanating from the spirit as a result of the life we had as spirits in the presence of God. Most people listen to the carnal influences 99% of the time, Christ was the example of ignoring carnal influences from His body, which I think is only possible in a body begotten of God. Explains to me why it had to be that way and not some average 100% mortal.

[Snow]

Not much. You rely on spiritual discipline, surely girded by Christ's help. I rely on unseen angelic forces to help me withstand perceived demonic temptation. In the end, both of us have put our faith to action.

This is a great example of the pointlessness of arguing dogma.

That Satan is a real influence is a purely dogmatic belief - something for which there is no proof. I make some argument that the devil is not relevant, hence divine intervention not necessary and then you take that as evidence that divine intervention actually occurs.

[bettyjbass]

PrisonChaplin, Yes! Yes! Yes! and The devil/satan is so at mad, because I will not allow him to use me against anyone belief to not expect God. I am so upset at his attacks on me in many shapes, forms, and fashion of ways in trying to make me shut up which toss me to and fro! I am about to cry, bye! Bye!

[prisonchaplain]

This is a great example of the pointlessness of arguing dogma.

That Satan is a real influence is a purely dogmatic belief - something for which there is no proof. I make some argument that the devil is not relevant, hence divine intervention not necessary and then you take that as evidence that divine intervention actually occurs.

Perhaps I simply reaffirmed your statement that there is no sense arguing dogma. You are right. How can demonic or angelic interference be proven? You proposed a scenario in which it mattered not whether the religious person was mostly materialistic in outlook or believed heavily in demonic and angelic influences. I explained how the two might be thinking, and pretty much agreed with you that they were both equally faithful.

[Vort]

That Satan is a real influence is a purely dogmatic belief - something for which there is no proof.

This is simply false. For example, Joseph Smith had extensive and very direct proof of Satan's real influence. That you do not share such experience does not therefore imply that the experience does not exist.