To what extent do we respect others?

[Bini]

I watched an episode of Sex Change Hospital on the Discovery Fit & Health channel about a woman that made the transition from female to male. The show interviewed the individual's parents and while they respected their daughter's wish to undergo this surgery, it was clear they struggled with the emotional and psychological adjustment of losing a daughter and gaining a son. At one point in the show the daughter wanted her parents to remove all photographs of her (as a female) in their home. Her reasoning was simply: I am not that person anymore. The parents agreed and her father boxed away childhood photographs and even the more recent ones prior to surgery. During another interview, you could see the mother was truly heartbroken over having to get rid of all the memories of her little girl, as if she never even existed. But because they still love their child, they were willing to make every effort in respecting her wishes.

I couldn't imagine the challenges that this family went through. A part of me feels that the individual was being selfish when making such a request regarding the photographs but another part of me feels that it would be just as selfish for the parents to continue displaying photos of a person that their child no longer identifies with. The Lord teaches us to love one another, regardless, of how crummy the situation is. So how far do we bend over backwards? To what extent do we respect others wishes, lifestyles and beliefs? What would you do in the given situation?

[Dravin]

Personally, and of course coming from a different place, I would have been inclined to say, "Pictures show the past, not the present or future." It doesn't matter who they are today, that doesn't change what they were and who the memories are of. That said, if t here were individual portraits of him I'd probably remove them from the common areas. But say a picture of a cherished family vacation with the whole family in the shot? Less inclined.

To what extent do we respect others wishes, lifestyles and beliefs?

The question becomes what do you mean by respect? Terms like 'respect the wishes of' usually come across as a euphemism for 'do what they've requested'. Also respect can communicate that you concede (which kinda plays into respecting the wishes of), such as respecting one's right to say the F-word in a movie. Then you have the sense of agree or approve such as respecting say MLK Jr. I'm sure there are some other senses out there but those are the first ones to come to mind.

[Guest gopecon]

If I'm the parents of this person, then I raised a daughter, not a son. Expecting the parents to get rid of all evidence that she was born (and in genetic reality still is) a female is not reasonable. Taking them off of the walls is not too big of a request. This would be a tough issue to deal with as a parent, I hope I would be able to continue to love and be there for my child, but this is a pretty big change.

[Jennarator]

That's would be very hard situation to be in. I think the parents were very kind to take down all the photos. Sad that the "son" couldn't let them leave up the pics since they are his past. If it were me I would put them in a book and leep them tucked away in my room, and look at them often. I would do this as a memory, not as a "wish they were still that person" kind of thing, just memories. Then I would make sure lots of current photos were taken so I had something of my child to look at on the walls. Just seems so sad to have to take down memories.

Now the hardest part would be the change and knowing how I feel about the choice my child had made. Tho I would still love them, I feel that is a hard thing to face. I have a sister that has a daughter that is 15 and says she is gay. I think one of the hardest things for a Mormon parent to deal with is a gay child. Again, I would still love the child, but it would be hard to see them go thru all of this.

[Bini]

Personally, and of course coming from a different place, I would have been inclined to say, "Pictures show the past, not the present or future." It doesn't matter who they are today, that doesn't change what they were and who the memories are of. That said, if t here were individual portraits of him I'd probably remove them from the common areas. But say a picture of a cherished family vacation with the whole family in the shot? Less inclined.

She did have a brother. He was not apart of the show, not sure if he declined to be interviewed but little was revealed about him. From some of the childhood photographs they did show, it almost looked like the two were twins.. So I would imagine, if they were twins, something like this would be very difficult for the twin sibling to take in as well.

I agree with you though, Dravin. I would be less inclined to accomodate where it was a family photo. You just can't erase everything, especially when you're connected to others.

[NeuroTypical]

At one point in the show the daughter wanted her parents to remove all photographs of her (as a female) in their home. Her reasoning was simply: I am not that person anymore.

"Sorry dood (or whatever I'm calling him now). We also have pictures of you with that green hair, and you're not that person anymore either. History is important, no matter how much we've changed since then. Your mother's feelings are important too. Not to mention that this house belongs to me and your mother, not you."

There's support, and then there's coddling and enabling and sheltering.

[Jennarator]

"Sorry dood (or whatever I'm calling him now). We also have pictures of you with that green hair, and you're not that person anymore either. History is important, no matter how much we've changed since then. Your mother's feelings are important too. Not to mention that this house belongs to me and your mother, not you."

There's support, and then there's coddling and enabling and sheltering.

This makes sense. Perhaps I like this idea better than mine. :)

[Backroads]

I think all has been said about the details of the show.

On the question itself...

We can't always change people.

We can't expect everyone to live by our standards or the way we would like them to live.

Expecting everyone to respect us by always putting our feelings first is, well, boardering on abusive.

Is it always conceding to let someone live as they are?

[rameumptom]

The child doesn't understand that the kiddy pictures are the parents' past, also! Part of who they are is wrapped up in those photographs. The child doesn't have to identify with those photos. The parents have special memories wrapped up in those photos. The only selfishness is from the child. And sadly our world is going this way, where people demand the world accept them a certain way, even if it goes against everything the world knows is right and is verified by the Spirit of God.

[Jennarator]

To change the subject, slightly, what about those that went thru a divorce? Is it disrespectful to ask the parents to take down wedding pictures and family pictures from when the "adult child" was married?

[rameumptom]

I think it is comparing apples to oranges. That said, it depends on what kind of divorce occurred, and whether the parents still get along with the ex.

[Jennarator]

I'm only asking, since it is about respect. I would think there are painful memeories in both situations. Yet both are part of the past. My guess, tho possible wrong, is that more people are willing to take down the divorce pics than the change of gender pics. Maybe because the ex-son or daughter in law is not longer part of the family whereas the child that changed genders is still part of the family??

[Bini]

To change the subject, slightly, what about those that went thru a divorce? Is it disrespectful to ask the parents to take down wedding pictures and family pictures from when the "adult child" was married?

My parents removed all photos of me and my ex-husband in their home. I don't recall requesting it, I think they took it upon themselves to close that chapter. That said, I did not have children from my previous marriage. If I did and my parents had some of our family photos (me, my ex and our kids), I'd imagine they'd still be put away but not thrown out. Knowing how my mum is, she would only keep photos of me and my kids around, and not the ex. I'm also remarried now and much happier than before, these are the memories I like to cherish and I think my parents prefer to cherish them with me.

[Guest gopecon]

Jennerator - in the event of a nasty/painful divorce I don't think its unreasonable to ask that pictures of the former spouse be taken down (not destroyed). If there are grandkids in the pictures that does complicate the request some, as the former spouse is still their family.

[Jennarator]

I know my parents took down the pics of my ex, just wondering if they would if I changed genders. Not that I would....

[NeuroTypical]

Is it disrespectful to ask the parents to take down wedding pictures and family pictures from when the "adult child" was married?

Dunno. I know some situations where the parents are closer to the ex-spouse than their own child. (Sort of extreme situations, along the lines of "two idiots made a baby, our idiot then went to prison or dissapeared or something, leaving us with the other idiot and the kid")

Another story - I used to work with a lady who had a very interesting photograph on her desk. It was of three people: her, her husband, and hubby's ex-wife. The picture was of their three faces in sort of a triangle - the two women looking conspiratorial and happy, the man smiling but looking vaguely worried and dismayed. The story that went along with the photo was just as great.

[Jennarator]

Dunno. I know some situations where the parents are closer to the ex-spouse than their own child. (Sort of extreme situations, along the lines of "two idiots made a baby, our idiot then went to prison or dissapeared or something, leaving us with the other idiot and the kid")

Another story - I used to work with a lady who had a very interesting photograph on her desk. It was of three people: her, her husband, and hubby's ex-wife. The picture was of their three faces in sort of a triangle - the two women looking conspiratorial and happy, the man smiling but looking vaguely worried and dismayed. The story that went along with the photo was just as great.

Now I want to hear it.

[p3gasus]

I have never seen the movie that is mentioned, however, I have had some experience in my studies that have made me view some of these issues of gender change or homosexuality in a different light.

I am currently a psychology student and have studied genetics in the past. There is a very real and rare disorder (though some speculate not quite as rare as previously thought) called hermaphroditism. In it's most rare and truest form, a child is born with both male and female characteristics. Parents faced with this, prior to genetic testing, had to make a decision to surgically alter their children and hope they were choosing the right gender to raise their child. With genetic testing being used more and more frequently, the choice of which gender to select for the child becomes easier because testing can show which sex gene is dominant. However, this genetic testing is starting to show that the xy mutation is not as rare as originally thought. There are many more mutations to the xy gene that do not manifest as true hermaphroditism. Hermaphroditism is starting to be seen as occurring on a spectrum, with various degrees of manifestation. Many who undergo sex changes, often feel as if they were placed in the wrong body. The may be physically male, yet exhibit all the emotional and behavioral characteristics of a female. Or vice versa. In genetics this is considered partial hermaphroditism since children born this way do have the xy mutation. In psychology, this is called gender identity disorder. The person feels so strongly about feeling trapped in the wrong body and it affects them so profoundly, that many take drastic measures to alter their appearance; including self mutilation that could possibly lead to death.

Not many studies have been done on this, but of the few transgenders that have submitted to genetic testing, all were found to have one of the xy mutations. This has led to many theorizing that for some gays, they may actually have a more milder form of the xy mutation. Now I am not saying that just because a person claims they are gay that they automatically have the mutation, but for some this may actually be the basis for their conviction that they are indeed different. While, I am sure many who claim to be gay are just choosing a lifestyle that they find exciting due to all the hype surrounding it in the media, a small population of the gay community are probably suffering from a milder form of gender identity disorder.

When I learned about hermaphroditism in my genetics class, it left me fascinated and I have continued my studies into this disorder that, while genetic in nature, has very severe and far reaching social and psychological consequences that are beyond the persons control. For children born with the xy mutation, they have no control over the conflicting emotions that they feel compared to what society thinks they should feel. Parents of these children, spend their lives raising that beloved son or daughter, never suspecting that there is anything genetically wrong with their child and all the while the child suffers in silence because they do not understand why they feel so different. When the child grows into adulthood and decides to ignore their outward appearance and live as they feel they should, the fallout from the shock and horror at the child's life choices can be devastating.

Now hearing the scientific theories revolving around such a controversial issue and the limited research into this area of study, does this change anyone's perspective on the choice to have the sex change for the person in the movie? What if more scientific research does prove that transgenders and homosexuals are suffering from a genetic disorder, how do you think that will eventually shape the church's and society's views on handling these issues? How does this change your perception of the thread's topic?

Side note: As a major in the social sciences, I quite enjoy setting my faith and religious belief's aside temporarily step into another's shoes for a moment. It is quite interesting to see someone's response when they are faced with the other side of the argument. Makes for a much more interesting and enlightened conversation.

Edited September 9, 2011 by p3gasus
missed typos

[MorningStar]

My cousin has started taking hormones in preparation for getting a sex change operation. He wants his mom to call him her daughter now and for everyone to call him by a female name. I told him I didn't know when/if I would ever be ready for that.

And my niece wants to be a man. *sigh*

[Soulsearcher]

I think one of the best answers is the golden rule. Be as respectful to others as you'd wish them to be of you.

For years the LDS family i worked for/was friends with made it very clear that despite my discomfort i was not allowed to opt out of family song and prayer and even made a point to make me say prayer. The parents knew how uncomfortable i was but their rule was if i was present in the home i had to participate(i was usually in the home because i was their nanny). After they divorced and the mother remarried when I'd go visit the same thing would happen. I could not opt out of going to church and i could not opt out of family song and prayer or refuse to say prayers or bless the food when called upon. I never made a big deal out of it because while i don't agree with the faith, i do respect them. Fast forward a bit and I admit to them I'm gay. Haven't gotten a response from their mother in over a year and was recently told by one of the kids that i had to limit the topics of my conversations very heavily if i wanted to remain in contact. (and I'm talking about simple things like if i bought new clothes, nothing to do with dating or relationships). So i think people asking for respect have to be just as willing to give it. With the son/daughter in the op i would have approached the parents and stated my concerns and tried to find a compromise with the parents to help find peace for both sides in a rather emotionally stressful time.

[Blackmarch]

We can bend as far as we need as long as it does not lead into sin or temptation.

[Spartan117]

My friends son legally became his daughter on his last birthday a few months ago. The amount of time and work that his new daughter put into making the switch is unreal. I can't wrap my head around this one. The thing is, neither can the people who go through this. Look at the definition for "transgender" that Wikipedia gives ...

Transgender is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles.

Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex). "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual; some may consider conventional sexual orientation labels inadequate or inapplicable to them. The precise definition for transgender remains in flux, but includes:

-"Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."

-"People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."

-"Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."

A transgender individual may have characteristics that are normally associated with a particular gender, identify elsewhere on the traditional gender continuum, or exist outside of it as "other", "agender", "Genderqueer", or "third gender". Transgender people may also identify as bigender, or along several places on either the traditional transgender continuum, or the more encompassing continuums which have been developed in response to the significantly more detailed studies done in recent years.

You couldn't get that level of vagueness and ambiguity from a politician, this explanation is impressively unclear. Whoever wrote that should get a prize.

Personally, if this is what someone is sure will make them happy in life, have at it. I guess.

I don't mean to come off as hostile, about this, but exactly to what extent do we respect people's beliefs? Also from wiki ...

There is political tension between the identities that fall under the "transgender umbrella". For example, transsexual men and women who can pay for medical treatments (or who have institutional coverage for their treatment) are likely to be concerned with medical privacy and establishing a durable legal status as men and women later in life. Extending insurance coverage for medical care is a coherent issue in the intersection of transsexuality and economic class. Most of these issues can appeal even to conservatives, if framed in terms of an unusual sort of "maintenance" of traditional notions of gender for rare people who feel the need for medical treatments.

The legislation for laws and rights is going to be a nightmare.

Here is the issue ...

Being Transgender is not a Choice | GenderBlogs

I did not “decide” to become a man. Transgender is not something you wake up one day and think “Gee, I’m tired of being a girl, I want to be a boy from now on”. One cannot “become” transgender, one is born as transgender. Somewhere in the whole scheme of genetics and biology, a female-bodied person comes out of the womb, but in all other aspects, that person is male. Same goes with a male-bodied person, who knows within their hearts, souls and minds that they are not what their bodies are reflecting.

There it is, I was born this way. Challenging that idea is considered bigotry. Being "tolerant" means ignoring anything contrary to the "born this way" explanation. Being transgeneder will be the new homosexuality, it is not a choice, it is in the same category as what ethnicity you're born into, despite what anyone else says ...

Dr. Francis Collins, former Director of the Genome Project, has stated "that while homosexuality may be genetically influenced, it is not hardwired by DNA, and that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not predeterminations. The prominent roles of individual free will choices has a profound effect on us."

Regarding the contributions of genetics to areas such as homosexuality, Dr. Collins concluded, "Yes, we have all been dealt a particular set of cards, and the cards will eventually be revealed. But how we play the hand is up to us."

A group of European researchers looked at 3,826 pairs of Swedish twins to statistically sort out the cause of homosexuality and heterosexuality. As published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, Genetic and Environmental Effects on Same-sex Sexual Behavior: A Population Study of Twins in Sweden, the researchers determined there was no one factor that caused homosexuality or heterosexuality -- more than 60 percent of it was caused by environmental factors and more than 30 percent was biologically related. One of the authors was quoted as saying, 'The factors which influence sexual orientation are complex.'

The National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, a professional, scientific organization has found they are labeled homophobic for being willing to help clients who struggle with unwanted homosexuality—though overcoming this tendency is their client’s express choice. Their leadership includes a former president and board members of the American Psychological Association. They are also hateful for objectively reviewing the studies on homosexuality and being unable to say that “people are just born that way.”

Elder Oaks wraps things up nicely for me...

“This is much bigger than just a question of whether or not society should be more tolerant of the homosexual lifestyle. Over past years we have seen unrelenting pressure from advocates of that lifestyle to accept as normal what is not normal, and to characterize those who disagree as narrow-minded, bigoted and unreasonable. Such advocates are quick to demand freedom of speech and thought for themselves, but equally quick to criticize those with a different view and, if possible, to silence them by applying labels like ‘homophobic.’"

[slamjet]

This issue, and this discussion really sounds like a control issue. I would surmise that the person who is seeking the gender reassignment would have conflicting and confusing feelings as to who they are, what they want and what to do about it. So, for example, the request for family to take pictures down and/or call them by their new gender reassigned name is an extension of their seeking attitude that drove them to reassigning their gender in the first place; attempting to get some control of who they are, how they feel about themselves and to have control of their environment by making the outside world match how they view themselves.

But then that's my ignorant opinion from what I'm reading in this thread since I've not known or spoken to a person who has had their gender changed.

[p3gasus]

Spartan great post. This whole issue has been extremely fascinating for me ever since I first heard about some of the theories out there. Also, there are many stories in many ancient cultures and their respective mythologies that point to transgenders and homosexuals as not something that is new. This has been around for thousands of years. Some native american tribes used to consider transgenders as gods and worship them. While I don't agree on a lot of the theories and research, it is quite fascinating and I will be spending quite a bit of time updating my research into this topic; starting with the links you shared. I see many hours of enjoyable reading in my future. Thank you for the updated information.

It has been over 10 years since I first studied this issue and my interest has been renewed lately after a therapist suggested that my 7 year old son might be struggling with gender identity issues. He has always cross dressed and preferred mainly activities that seem girly in nature. When he was younger, I thought nothing of it and just thought it was a phase that all toddlers go through. Recently, he has expressed that he wishes he had been born a girl, still plays with baby dolls and barbies, and tries to dress in my clothes and makeup. I try to gently encourage him to be involved in sports and have male friends but he protests. Every attempt to stop him from dressing in my clothes and putting on my makeup results in his feelings being hurt and tantrums. I struggle with trying to balance showing him how a boy is expected to behave and having compassion and understanding for behaviors that may have lifelong negative effects on him and may never change. All the while, I am still hoping and praying that he is still just going through a phase that he is a little slower than others at exiting. This whole thing is touchy cause I would love for him to be a normal boy but I don't want to destroy his developing self-esteem and alienate him in the process. Regardless of how this plays out in the future, I just want him to know that I love him unconditionally and will accept him no matter what.

[Bini]

P3gasus, thanks for sharing your personal story. The issue of encouraging your little boy to be a little boy and not a little girl, is a tough one. I'm not sure how I'd handle this situation myself. I'll be expecting a little girl any time now and to think that she could possibly have the same feelings as your son (but wanting to be a boy) is disheartening. But having said that, regardless of her sexual orientation or gender identity, we're going to love her no matter what and encourage her to be the most successful individual she can be. I come from a very active LDS family, despite my husband and I not being active, and I know grandparents will struggle with the idea of having a gay/transgender grandchild. But I've already told my husband, if that happens, you better believe it that when we throw a Thanksgiving feast or Christmas dinner, our child will be there and if she has a companion, so will that companion. I'm not going to neglect my child and if others don't like that - they can throw their own dinner party.