Two churches- Church of Jesus Christ..and the great and abominable church?

[lizzy16]

So..what is the great and abominable church? Is it all churches lumped into one that don't have the true priesthood power?

[prisonchaplain]

say it isn't so!

[LittleWyvern]

The way I read it, the following verses have the answer:

6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

Clearly the scope of this church is beyond our usual definition of church. It covers the whole earth and the founder is the devil. I believe that this church isn't a church of all, it is a loosely gathered group of all those who follow the devil. Consider:

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

Here's where I think the analogy is more clear. There are those that do good and those who are captivated by the many tools of Satan. This latter group is what I see as the "great and abominable church."

[Casper]

There is often misunderstanding about these churches and who belongs to them. They are not physical churches, they do not have specific buildings that you go to. They are spiritual churches or churches of the heart. Membership in these two churches is determined by the intentions of our hearts, not by anything else.

The Lord taught Samuel

…for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. 1 Samuel 16:7

And in D&C 64:22

… I, the Lord, will not hold any guilty that shall go with an open heart up to the land of Zion; for I, the Lord, require the hearts of the children of men.

And Jesus said in Luke 17:20-21

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

When Nephi talks of these two church he says that there are only two churches (1 Nephi 14:10). Nephi is not talking about outward organizations, Nephi saw our day and how many churches there would be and according to Wikipedia there are approximately 38,000 churches that are just Christian, Nephi is talking about two Churches where membership is determined by the desires of our hearts. The members of these two kingdoms or churches are spread among all denominations countries.

Some members that belong to “The church of the lamb of God” are also members of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints and some in most other denominations. The same goes for the members of “The Church of the devil” they are all over the world; Some in the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints and some in most other denominations to. It is all to do with who we love, do we love God or the Devil, good or bad and light or darkness.

The true answer to this question will let us know what Church we belong to.

[Jamie123]

I've often seen this passage quoted as "one in the eye" to anyone who claims that Mormons don't criticize other religions. I know there's a tendency nowadays to see these "two churches" as metaphors for general groups of people, but the passage in 1 Nephi does rather chime with what Jesus supposedly told Smith in his first vision about the literal churches of his time: "....their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

I've also heard the we-don't-criticize-other-churches thing used as a cop-out by Mormon missionaries who - having claimed that "many religions are clearly false" find they don't know enough to give you any concrete examples. Here's the correct way to handle it:

Missionary: Well, you can tell that many religions are clearly false. They can't possibly be true.

You: OK, Give me some examples.

Missionary: Well....errr.... [moment of doubt followed by sudden inspiration] You can do that for yourself! We don't criticize other religions.

You: Yes you do.

Missionary: No we don't. We're not here to criticize other religions.

You: Oh really? Then why did you tell me five minutes ago that infant baptism was wrong?

Missionary: I simply said that it was not biblical....look, can we get back to....

You: How is that not criticizing churches that baptize infants?

Missionary: Are you going to listen to me or not? We were discussing....

You: Not until you stop prevaricating. You told me that many other religions were clearly wrong, and whether you like it or not that was criticizing other religions. Now either give me some concrete examples or else....

Missionary: Like I said, you can do that for yourself...

You: OK I will!

[Now reel off a bunch of time-worn Anti-Mormon arguments ripped off the web, e.g. Joseph Smith was a treasure seeker...Kinderhook plates...Book of Abraham rediscovery...BoM written in 1611 English, and changed many times despite being a "perfect translation"...Mountain Meadows Massacre...Horses in Pre-Columbian America...Bronze-age steelworking....Quakers on the Moon...etc...etc...]

So there you have it! A religion that can't possibly be true!

Missionary: You really believe all that garbage?

You: Not necessarily. But you obviously have chosen to believe whatever "garbage" was handed to you about the religions you say are "clearly false". The best you've given me so far is infant baptism, and if you think that's enough to disprove the Anglicans, Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Orthodox and Methodists (if those were the religions you were referring to) then you certainly put the Anti-Mormons in the shade!

Missionary: It's been nice talking to you. [Fingers crossed behind back.] We'll show ourselves out!

(P.S. I've never actually said all this stuff to a missionary. I hope I'm not that cruel!)

Edited September 27, 2011 by Jamie123

[rameumptom]

Most Christian churches are terrestrial. Terrestrial churches are filled with "honorable men of the earth" (D&C 76), who are friends of Christ. These cannot be the Great and Abominable Church.

The Great and Abominable Church is made up of anything promoted directly by Satan: things from perdition or are at least Telestial. The Telestial are those who are enemies of God, but repent at the last minute and receive a salvation of glory. They do this only because they choose not to suffer in hell for eternity. They taste hell for their sins in the Spirit World, finally come to understand there is only one escape, and they choose it (see Alma 36, D&C 19). That escape is faith in Christ and repentance.

So, any organization, whether an actual church or not, which promotes serious sin and leads us away from Christ and good works, is of the devil.

So, this means that neither the Catholic Church nor Prison Chaplain are the Great and Abominable Church.

[volgadon]

Church = community.

[Jamie123]

Church = community.

The Greek word ekklesia means "community" and is usually translated "church". But the English word "church" actually comes from the Greek kuriakos which literally means "belonging to the Lord". So "The Devil's Church" is an oxymoron.

[RMGuy]

It depends on who you ask.

-RM

[prisonchaplain]

It is probably common knowledge that the suggestion that the great and abominable church is all the other Christian churches, combined with Joseph Smith's testimony that the messengers told him all the other churches were wrong (using some expressive language) that leads many critics of your church to say that they are simply responding ...

I don't get to say what LDS teaching is or should be, but I can certainly see where the interpretation suggested in the OP could be a wet blanket on most inter or multifaith dialogue.

[spamlds]

To identify the "great and abominable church" we need no further commentary than the scriptures themselves. The scriptures describe that "church" by its characteristics and its actions. I recommend a quick search the topic at lds.org.

Here is what that "church" does, has done, and will do:

It slays the saints of God, tortures them, and binds them down with an iron yoke, bringing them into captivity. It indulges in worldliness as expressed by luxurious apparel, gold, silver, silks, and fine-twined linens. Harlotry is associated with it. This "church" destroys he saints of God for the praise of the world. It took away plain and precious parts of the word of God. It has dominion over the world. It has power to exercise compulsion against free will. It fights against Zion and the Lord's work in the world. It is the visible, physical manifestation of the devil's kingdom on earth, in opposition to the kingdom of God. It is the whore, the mother of harlots, and it will ultimately be destroyed when the Lord comes.

There is more than one church, government, political philosophy, or human organization that is responsible for these things. Together, combined, they are the great and abominable church. Remember--it's by their fruits that we will know them.

1 Nephi 13:6-9

4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.

5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.

8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.

9 And also for the praise of the world do they destroy the saints of God, and bring them down into captivity.

1 Nephi 13:26

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

1 Nephi 14:9-11

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

1 Nephi 22L:13-14

13 And the blood of that great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall turn upon their own heads; for they shall war among themselves, and the sword of their own hands shall fall upon their own heads, and they shall be drunken with their own blood.

14 And every nation which shall war against thee, O house of Israel, shall be turned one against another, and they shall fall into the pit which they digged to ensnare the people of the Lord. And all that fight against Zion shall be destroyed, and that great whore, who hath perverted the right ways of the Lord, yea, that great and abominable church, shall tumble to the dust and great shall be the fall of it.

2 Nephi 6:12

12 And blessed are the Gentiles, they of whom the prophet has written; for behold, if it so be that they shall repent and fight not against Zion, and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church, they shall be saved; for the Lord God will fulfil his covenants which he has made unto his children; and for this cause the prophet has written these things.

2 Nephi 28:18

18 But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof.

19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;

20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

D&C 29:21

21 And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire, according as it is spoken by the mouth of Ezekiel the prophet, who spoke of these things, which have not come to pass but surely must, as I live, for abominations shall not reign.

[LittleWyvern]

It is probably common knowledge that the suggestion that the great and abominable church is all the other Christian churches, combined with Joseph Smith's testimony that the messengers told him all the other churches were wrong (using some expressive language) that leads many critics of your church to say that they are simply responding ...

I don't get to say what LDS teaching is or should be, but I can certainly see where the interpretation suggested in the OP could be a wet blanket on most inter or multifaith dialogue.

It is a common misconception, but remember that Joseph Smith was only trying to find out which church was the same church that Christ set up on the earth. He didn't go out trying to prove all churches "wrong" or anything:

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

Considering the motive, it becomes a little more clear that "wrong" in this context meant "not what I was looking for."

[prisonchaplain]

I guess I am also hoping that the idea that "the great and abominable church" is all non-LDS Christian ones is also a common misconception. :-)

[HiJolly]

I guess I am also hoping that the idea that "the great and abominable church" is all non-LDS Christian ones is also a common misconception. :-)

Back in the 70's when the literalists (Bruce McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith, etc) were in full swing, I heard that sort of opinion amongst the Church members quite a bit.

These days, thankfully, not so much. Yay!

HiJolly

[Guest mormonmusic]

It is probably common knowledge that the suggestion that the great and abominable church is all the other Christian churches, combined with Joseph Smith's testimony that the messengers told him all the other churches were wrong (using some expressive language) that leads many critics of your church to say that they are simply responding ...

I don't get to say what LDS teaching is or should be, but I can certainly see where the interpretation suggested in the OP could be a wet blanket on most inter or multifaith dialogue.

Yep. Said only as prisonchaplain can say it.

There are statements in the First Vision account, such as that all other Churches are wrong, and also, this black and white, binary comment from the Book of Mormon that you are either part of the Church of Christ or the Church of the devil. All of these represent wet blankets on interfaith dialogue in my view.

I can't accept that it's all or nothing with respect to other Churches out there -- that my parent's Evangelical faith is of the devil. For some reason, that kind of extremist interpretation is alive and well in certain areas of Christendom....it would be an interesting research project to figure out what it is about religion that attracts such absolutist, and often extreme statements.

And as I've seen later prophets repudiate the believed-to-be entrenched-in-revelation statements of historical prophets over the years, I find myself on my own clock about what some of these scripture passages actually mean.

I personally feel all of the Christian religions that try to follow Christ's teachings have some form of acceptance from him. Heck, I got my testimony of God as a result of the private teaching of a United Church of Canada minister. And that's what prepared me for a testimony wtihin the LDS faith. For five years, that was the only religion available to me.

I find it hard to believe that that minister as part of the Church of the Devil.

[Guest gopecon]

In LDS teaching, the Terrestrial Kingdom partakes of the glory of the Son. I believe that religions that lead people to live terrestiral lives would mostly be classified in the Church of the Lamb, not the Great and Abominable Church. By that definition most (not all) Christian Churches would be under the Church of the Lamb umbrella.

[RescueMom]

Just because all the churches were wrong doesn't make them evil...it makes them misguided, all having bits of truth but not the complete restored truth. IMHO we should not condemn anyone because of the church they belong to, it's the truth they know.

I tend to think the Church of the Devil isn't actually a church at all, but a way of thinking in all manner against God, often taking the form of contention and hate mongering in politics, degradation in entertainment including sexual advertising of everything (hamburgers, cars, clothes), the destroying of self worth in women and men (we all have to look this way, act this way, own this house, drive this car before we are living the 'American Dream'). And one of his greatest tools is to divide the Children of Adam and turn them against each other, and he does quite a good job using religion to do so...it's a brilliant ploy of his to have us hate each other in the name of Christ (he is quite good at it and it works well).

[Obolus]

Because the body is a temple, all is religion. Everything you are drawn to, that you participate in, and everything you seek and purchase. There isn't any act, word or thought that isn't some kind of ordinance.

People can't help but commit and attend. Why? Because atonement (the middle english meaning of the word: to be "at one") is the main function of the human being. We make ourselves "one" with religions, musical instruments, exercise, sports teams, video games, film, and popular music. This is why we gather up at concerts, games, festivals, universities, and chapels. This is why we travel & line up for fantasy sequels. It is all about atonement and rebirth.

The Lord's message in the aforementioned scriptures goes far beyond other churches or sects. It speaks to an understanding of the body that most people simply don't get. When Christ said, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it back up", it was the most important statement about the human body of all time. It's not just a far-reaching statement, it is all-reaching.

The Lord never intended for us to skip out on movies, concerts, sports, or travel. He simply sets up a list of priorities, and at the top of the list are his ordinances. If all is atonement, then his Atonement is numero uno.

Why are his ordinances so important? Where can they be found? The great and abominable church = all atonements that we prioritize over his ordinances and temple work. If the Lord is offended by counterfeit ordinances that purport to be his, he has every right to say so in his scripture.

The Mormons don't make the claim. God does. Mormons can only be accused of the claim if Joseph Smith concocted the scriptures himself. It is either revelation, or a farce.

[LittleWyvern]

I guess I am also hoping that the idea that "the great and abominable church" is all non-LDS Christian ones is also a common misconception. :-)

I think gopecon already said it better, but a scripture I posted earlier has some relevance here:

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

That second verse is a lot stronger than the first: the devil persuades no man to do good. That's just not how the devil works. I think in order to be a "member" of this "church of Satan" you have to be completely opposed to do any good. Certainly very few churches, if any, fall under that category.

[rayhale]

Here is a quote by Joseph Smith:

Joseph remarked that all was well between him and the heavens that he had no enmity against any one. and as the prayer of Jesus or his pattern so prayed Joseph. Father forgive me my trespasses as I forgive those who trespass against me. for I freely forgive all men.—if we would secure & cultivate the love of others we must love others, even our enemies—as well as friends "why is it this babler gains so many followers. & retains them"? because I possess the principle of love, All I can offer the world a good heart & a good hand. Mormons can testify whether I am willing to lay down my life for a Mormon; If it has been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a Mormon I am bold to declare before heaven that I am just as ready to die for a Presbyterian. a Baptist or any other denomination.—It is a love of liberty which inspires my soul, civil and religious liberty—were diffused into my soul by my grandfathers. while they dandled me on their knees—and shall I want [for] friends? no! (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph, compiled and edited by Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, p.229)

There has been no consensus on who or what the “great and abominable church” is. Is it a church where you can worship, or is it the worldly things, like strip clubs, bars, X-rated movies etc… ? I don’t know, but I think our church who is sensitive to “Anti-Mormon” attacks, should not be “Anti-Catholic”, or anti anything else, if we don’t like it, why should we do it to someone else?

[Blackmarch]

So..what is the great and abominable church? Is it all churches lumped into one that don't have the true priesthood power?

the quick answer it is anything that claims to be Gods church/oracle but is not. From the LDS standpoint thats all other churches, as none other churches have God's authority. So ya you pretty much have it right.

Does it mean the people in it are evil? Not necessarily (and 9 times out of 10 most likely not).

Does it mean the teachings of that church are evil or wrong? not necessarily

[Blackmarch]

I guess I am also hoping that the idea that "the great and abominable church" is all non-LDS Christian ones is also a common misconception. :-)

it is to the degree that the it comprises all organization that sets itself up as God's own, but is not. So that includes just about everybody.

I think the bigger misconception is the perception that this means the individuals in it are evil, or that all the teachings within such are evil/wrong.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Because the body is a temple, all is religion. Everything you are drawn to, that you participate in, and everything you seek and purchase. There isn't any act, word or thought that isn't some kind of ordinance.

People can't help but commit and attend. Why? Because atonement (the middle english meaning of the word: to be "at one") is the main function of the human being. We make ourselves "one" with religions, musical instruments, exercise, sports teams, video games, film, and popular music. This is why we gather up at concerts, games, festivals, universities, and chapels. This is why we travel & line up for fantasy sequels. It is all about atonement and rebirth.

The Lord's message in the aforementioned scriptures goes far beyond other churches or sects. It speaks to an understanding of the body that most people simply don't get. When Christ said, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it back up", it was the most important statement about the human body of all time. It's not just a far-reaching statement, it is all-reaching.

The Lord never intended for us to skip out on movies, concerts, sports, or travel. He simply sets up a list of priorities, and at the top of the list are his ordinances. If all is atonement, then his Atonement is numero uno.

Why are his ordinances so important? Where can they be found? The great and abominable church = all atonements that we prioritize over his ordinances and temple work. If the Lord is offended by counterfeit ordinances that purport to be his, he has every right to say so in his scripture.

The Mormons don't make the claim. God does. Mormons can only be accused of the claim if Joseph Smith concocted the scriptures himself. It is either revelation, or a farce.

I tend to think along the same lines. As dual beings, both body and spirit, those things that strengthen the outer man (body, "self", outward man, natural man, etc.) are part of the church of the devil as he has power over carnal things. Things that strengthen the spirit (our real self, inward man, the "heart") are related to the Church of Christ.

If a person is not actively participating in the Church of Christ, the natural man maintains control and the person as a whole (outer man winning over inner man) belongs to the church of the devil.

Over time a person can change the outer man's tendency for carnal living by following the gospel and therefore becoming "one" to some degree. When we weaken the outward man the inward man is strengthened. This is what a member of Christ' church experiences;

2 Corinthians 4:16-18 "16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

[Obolus]

SS, thank you for that scripture.

[slamjet]

I guess I am also hoping that the idea that "the great and abominable church" is all non-LDS Christian ones is also a common misconception. :-)

In my simple mind, I worked it out as those who live pure religion vs secularism. I've met way too many good, "God fearing" people to think otherwise.