"God once was..."

[Vort]

You think you have it figured out, but you need to remember, the Bible IS God's testimony. And that God-breathed scripture says "only worship God", but beware because it says Jesus received worship.

How sad. Did you miss my point because you will not see it, or because you cannot see it?

To claim God's testimony is pointless is absurdity.

But, of course, this is nothing like what I wrote.

[CREO]

Any one that has read the Bible would have the same belief. If you believe that Christ was and is the Son of God in the flesh that came to earth, was raised from the dead and is God, this should be no question. This is the same process that we all will go through to become like God. We will have our eternal bodies and all knowledge, then we will be as God.

[Soninme]

CREO,

Except Jesus was God before He came to earth so that can't be our way.

[Justice]

Jesus, or Jehovah, was chosen before the creation of this earth to be the Redeemer. The fact that He was chosen implies that He wasn't always. There had to be a time when He was not the Redeemer. When the Father chose Him to be the Redeemer, then He was, not until.

When He was chosen to be the Redeemer He became Father's chosen messenger to mankind. Since sin would separate us from the Father, the chosen Redeemer would be the Father's voice. Only One could be chosen, hence no one else was chosen. This does not mean or even imply that we were not there. It means we were not chosen to be the Redeemer, but would be in need of being redeemed.

Jehovah was the God of the Old Testament. He did not have a body of flesh and bones. This is the same state we were in before we were born (execpt we were not chosen to be the Redeemer and represent the Father on earth).

Similarities:

Jehovah did not have a body of flesh and bones until He was born, same as us.

Christ was born of a mortal mother, same as us.

Christ died, same as us.

Christ was resurrected, as will we.

I could throw out some others, but these are the mains ones I wanted to bring up.

What do you see as similarities?

[Soninme]

Similarities:

Jehovah did not have a body of flesh and bones until He was born, same as us.

Justice,

Except Jesus was God the Word (John 1:1) from everlasting (Micah 5:2) BEFORE He became flesh and dwelt among us.(John 1:14)

Job did not exist at the creation of the world(Job 38:4)

Nor did Abraham(John 8:58)

Jesus is before all things (Colossians 1:17)

This includes Job, Abraham, you and me.

Christ was born of a mortal mother, same as us.

Yet conceived as a creative act by the Holy Spirit, (Matt 1:18) not the way we are.

Christ died, same as us.

Yet no one takes His life from Him and no one raises themselves (John 10:17-18)

Christ was resurrected, as will we.

Yet He did it in three days of His own power because He is God, always has been, and we are not. (John 2:19-21)

All others who have died are still waiting to be resurrected.

I could throw out some others, but these are the mains ones I wanted to bring up.

What do you see as similarities?

Isaiah 55:8-9 “ For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. “ For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

I see a distance of infinity between God who is holy and has never sinned and man who is exceedingly sinful.

[annewandering]

Is the fact that the bible talks about Jesus before he was born and he was seen by prophets before he was born one of the reasons protestants believe God and Jesus are the same? You also say job and abraham did not exist before the creation of the world. What do you base that on?

[Maureen]

If you read John 1 in the original Greek, you would note that the section talks of two Gods. It says that the "Word is God", but says that the word was "with THE (ho) God". So, Jesus is God, who dwells with THE God....

Ram, do you have a reference for this?

M.

[volgadon]

Job did not exist at the creation of the world(Job 38:4)

The point of the question is that Job doesn't know the answer not that he didn't exist.

[rameumptom]

Ram, do you have a reference for this?

M.

Here's one reference:

“How does Jehovah appear in the Greek New Testament? As Kyrios. This gets translated as "Lord" in English.

How does Elohim appear in the Greek New Testament? As Theos - especially Ho Theos [The God]. This, of course, gets translated as "God" in English.

Of course, the same words appear in many places in the New Testament that are not merely quotes from the Old. And you will find that Lord usually refers to Jesus - especially after his resurrection - while God usually refers to the Father....

[in Isaiah] the Lord announces that he is the one and only Savior (see Isaiah 43:3, 11; 45:15). And when the angel appeared to the shepherds in he field outside Bethlehem, he said to them, "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord" (Luke 2:11).

Now we may never really know what the angel's words were in the original Aramaic, but it seems reasonable that it would be something like, "a Savior, who is the anointed Jehovah."

But don't just take Luke's word for it. In John 1:1-2 we read, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." ... [T]he first and third "God" in this passage comes from Greek Ho Theos - the God - while the second occurrence was simply Theos. So this could be rendered, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with The God."

(Russell C. McGregor and Kerry A. Shirts, "Letters to an Anti-Mormon," FARMS Review of Books, Vol. 11, No. 1, 1999, p. 139).

[Soninme]

Is the fact that the bible talks about Jesus before he was born and he was seen by prophets before he was born one of the reasons protestants believe God and Jesus are the same?

annewandering,

Not sure exactly what you are asking so please bear with me.

The name "Jesus" was given at His birth (Luke 1:31) but He surely existed as Almighty God from all eternity along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Protestants and Catholics are in complete agreement that the one God is revealed to us in three distinct Persons.

You also say job and abraham did not exist before the creation of the world. What do you base that on?

I referenced those verses in my last post but I will quote them here.

Job 38:4“ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

God asked Job "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" All the sons of God (angels) were there for they shouted for joy. Why didn't Job? Job tells us why;

Job 42:5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You.

Now Job understood.

As for Abraham, Jesus said in John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him;

Jesus claimed to be the "I AM" or God Almighty before Abraham even existed.

Zech 12:1 Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

So God created all things, which includes the spirits of man.

Thanks

[rameumptom]

You think you have it figured out, but you need to remember, the Bible IS God's testimony. And that God-breathed scripture says "only worship God", but beware because it says Jesus received worship.

....

What does the Bible (God's spoken word) say? To claim God's testimony is pointless is absurdity. Your hurdle in this life is this... will you believe the Bible.

I do not think the Bible ever exactly states, "only worship God", but I agree with the sentiment. That said, it does not state there are no other divine beings in heaven. And that is where you are misconstruing much of the Bible.

Again, can you show me exactly where the Bible says, "to claim God's testimony is pointless is absurdity"? Come on, now. If you are going to quote the Bible, then you must actually quote the Bible. Otherwise, it is your own words and/or interpretation of the Bible. And the Bible, according to the apostle Peter, is not of private interpretation, but is interpreted by prophets through the Holy Spirit.

The hurdle in life is not whether we will believe the Bible. We are not saved by the Bible. The Bible gives us no authority, nor power. The Bible tells us that the "hurdle" (although I would use other terminology, as this is poor usage here) in life is to accept Christ as our Savior, believe on him, repent, take up our cross and follow Him. Nowhere does it say that the Bible is required to be saved. It does say the scriptures are useful for learning and providing a basic platform upon which to build our faith. But nothing about it being "the hurdle in this life."

Remember, the Twelve apostles of Christ did not have the Bible. Christ did not have the Bible. At most, they had the writings of Moses and some of the earlier prophets. But even the teachings of these men, Jesus superseded. He said the "law and the prophets" (Moses' writings and the other prophets' teachings) all hung upon two commandments: Love God and Love our neighbor. So, what does that do for the rest of the Bible, if we just follow those two commandments? Do I really need the Bible as a hurdle, if I learn through prayer, faith and following the Spirit how to love God and my neighbor?

Again, the scriptures are profitable to us as an aid in understanding God. But I fear you put too much emphasis on this as needed for salvation! Personally, I believe that Jesus saves us, and the Bible is only one tool given us to help understand our relationship with God and Jesus. Nothing more.

[rameumptom]

Ram,

I don't mean to be contentious, we have only slightly touched on this in the past but I'm unclear as to how you arrive at this.

Most if not all of the book of Isaiah is telling of how Yahweh/Jehovah is the one and only God. If .. we assume you are correct- He is the only God for the nation of Israel - then Jesus is telling us that it is in fact Him and Him alone who is the creator of all things; Is.44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

also there is no one besides Him;

"Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." (Is.44:8)

My point is He speaks of no other. Yet in the gospels, Jesus does not cease to speak of the Father and even calls Him the "only true God" and also His and Mary's God.(John 20:17) Even Paul, an Israelite, says the one God for us is the Father. (1 Cor 8:6)

If the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are seperate beings -not only persons- then how could Jesus say He is the only God forever, "none would replace him" for the nation of Israel? Seems Jesus gives no credit to His Father in the OT yet all credit to Him in the NT.

Thanks

The Bible often speaks of divine beings. Angels are divine beings. In the early Jewish and Christian literature, Adam was so powerful and glorified that Satan was jealous of him and sought to destroy him.

Enoch in his ascension into heaven was clothed in white clothing, renamed Metatron the archangel, and sat upon God's own throne, whereupon the angels worshiped Enoch.

In the Dead Sea Scroll of Melchizedek, it states, "Melchizedek is El" and "Melchizedek is Yahweh".

Luke 22:30 and Matthew 19:28 tells us that the twelve apostles will sit next to Christ on divine thrones and judge the House of Israel!

The apostle John adds more to that in the Revelation 4:4 were 24 with crowns of gold on thrones. Rev 20:4 shows many thrones with judges on each of them judging the earth. Given that Jesus is the great judge, it seems he allows others to also have great power and authority.

I could many more examples, if you'd like. Each of these is evidence that there are many divine beings, yet we worship only the Father and Son. Still, God gives divine status to whom he pleases, such as in the case of Enoch.

As for how can God and Jesus be separate, and yet "one God" is all a matter of semantics. The Trinity, in the eyes of Jews and Muslims, is not a monotheistic religion. Isaiah spoke in a day when the Israelites were in apostasy. They did not understand the Godhead of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. They only understood Yahweh as the God of Israel, and that he dwelt in his temple in Jerusalem. As I noted before, Ezekiel was surprised to find Yahweh on a flying throne, showing that he could travel outside of the lands of Israel, and did not need a stationary throne in the temple at Jerusalem, in order to be Israel's God. The concept of God in the Hebrew world was continually changing. Again, the earliest Hebrews and Semites understood there to be a divine council in heaven, with El Elyon (God Almighty) as the head, with divine sons that included Yahweh. Yahweh received Israel as his inheritance. Eventually, Yahweh would stretch outside of the Levant and become God of all the earth.

You really need to do some reading outside the basic teachings of the modern traditional church. There are many scholarly books on the Bible, both by traditional Christian scholars and by archaeological scholars, who have written on the multiplicity of Israel's Gods. Margaret Barker will come up frequently on this. But you can also look up William Dever's "Did God have a Wife?". Both El and Yahweh were connected to Asherah, the goddess of wisdom and fertility. We even hear her voice in Proverbs, as she encourages us to learn of her ways. Here is what I've written before on the topic from Proverbs:

Joel's Monastery: OT Gospel Doctrine lesson #31 - Happy is the man that findeth Wisdom

The virtue and wisdom of good women. We often can hear Proverbs 31:10-31 read on Mother's day in church: "Who can find a virtuous woman? For her price is far above rubies."

Women are compared in Proverbs to God's wife (ancient Hebrews believed God had a wife) . One of her titles is "Wisdom."

In Proverbs 3-4, we learn about her: "happy is the man that finds wisdom....She is more precious than rubies" (3:13-15). When men find a virtuous/wise woman, he is blessed even as God is blessed with his wife Wisdom.

"She is a Tree of Life" (3:18) ties the goddess and man's wife (Eve) to the Garden. In Nephi's Vision of the Tree of Life, he saw the tree represented the mother of God (Mary), and Jesus was her fruit (1 Nephi 11:7-23).

In Proverbs 8, Wisdom speaks directly to us. She is in the high places and in the groves set up at the cities's gates. She is Asherah, the wife of God. "my mouth shall speak truth", "wisdom is better than rubies", "counsel is mine...I am understanding", "I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me", "then I was by him (God-in the beginning), as one brought up with him." As Eve with Adam, Wisdom has been God's constant companion.

Of course, many have looked at the evidence that even the mortal Jesus was married, possibly to Mary Magdalene. So, we can find the divine feminine in the scriptures, as the wife of God.

Again, it is all semantics. Jesus said he would have protected us as a hen covers her chicks with its wing. Of course, this is not a literal description of Jesus or us. It is a metaphor. It is a symbol. And saying there is "one" God is also semantics. It just depends on what it is supposed to mean. Whether it is the actual monotheism of modern Judaism, the silly claim of monotheism by Trinitarians, or the monolatry of Mormonism and ancient Judaism and Christianity (many gods, worship only one).

As Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 8:

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

So, there are many Gods and Lords in heaven and earth (after all, Paul does call us the divine sons of God), but we worship only one God, the Father. And Jesus is separated out of this, being called "Lord", also a divine being, but subordinate to God the Father.

Edited November 12, 2011 by rameumptom

[Soninme]

Remember, the Twelve apostles of Christ did not have the Bible. Christ did not have the Bible. At most, they had the writings of Moses and some of the earlier prophets. But even the teachings of these men, Jesus superseded. He said the "law and the prophets" (Moses' writings and the other prophets' teachings) all hung upon two commandments: Love God and Love our neighbor. So, what does that do for the rest of the Bible, if we just follow those two commandments? Do I really need the Bible as a hurdle, if I learn through prayer, faith and following the Spirit how to love God and my neighbor?

Ram, can I be assured that I am following the one true God without my Bible?

How are we to know the truth from error without a standard of truth?

The scriptures are exactly what Jesus appealed to for verification of who He was.

The Bereans were called "more fair-minded" because they "searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so."(Acts 17:11) I believe they were more fair minded because they searched, not because they took it by faith and prayed only.

I too believe one can be saved without the Bible, but without it one is at a serious disadvantage to say the least.

Ps. 119:11 Your word I have hidden in my heart,

That I might not sin against You.

[volgadon]

Ram, can I be assured that I am following the one true God without my Bible?

How are we to know the truth from error without a standard of truth?

The scriptures are exactly what Jesus appealed to for verification of who He was.

The Bereans were called "more fair-minded" because they "searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so."(Acts 17:11) I believe they were more fair minded because they searched, not because they took it by faith and prayed only.

I too believe one can be saved without the Bible, but without it one is at a serious disadvantage to say the least.

Ps. 119:11 Your word I have hidden in my heart,

That I might not sin against You.

These verses prove the opposite of what you want them to. THe word "search" is what underlies midrash, where ideas and concepts were read into the Bible as much as they were derived from it.

[rameumptom]

SonInMe,

Did Moses have a Bible? Did Adam or Abraham? Are they, or are they not all saved?

The Bible is only useful if we interpret it correctly. In my life, I've known people that from their interpretation of the bible claimed Jesus was a communist, God was an alien from outer space, that we must earn our own salvation, that we do not have to obey commandments to be saved, that baptism is necessary or not, that God is a Trinity, that Jesus was not divine - just a holy teacher, etc.

One of the strengths of having Bible, Book of Mormon, and modern prophets is that it narrows down the number of personal interpretations one can have, especially on key issues.

If we were to shoot arrows into the Bible, we could do it from any angle, and still hit the Bible. If you had to shoot through the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the modern teachings of prophets, it greatly reduces the angles one could use to shoot through all of them.

That the Bible is inspired is not disputed here. That it is not complete should also not be disputed here, as it is plain that it quotes from other books not in the Bible (such as Jude quoting Enoch and the Assumption of Moses). If we accept the Old Testament scrolls found in the Dead Sea Scrolls as inspired and scriptural, why not the rest of them, as well? Because we have a tradition of a Bible. But that obviously does not mean the Bible is complete, or that the works and words of God are finished. If we follow the evidence, it strongly shows that the Bible is a good start, but is not the end all.

And Psalms 119 is not referencing the Bible, as it did not exist at that time. It is referencing that the words spoken by inspired prophets and/or the Holy Spirit was kept safe in David's heart. Why? So that he would always remember the teachings and not sin. For example, remembering the teachings, Thou shalt not kill or commit adultery may have kept him from sinning. Yes, they were written in the Law, but placing them in one's heart does not require it having been written down. Instead, it requires that the Spirit teach them to his heart.

I agree scripture is important. Again, the Bible is just a part of scripture. The Pharisees had the Old Testament, studied it, and searched it. Yet they did not find Jesus in it. In fact, they used the scripture to fight against the Savior. They knew the words, but they were not "hidden in [their] heart."

[Soninme]

Enoch in his ascension into heaven was clothed in white clothing, renamed Metatron the archangel, and sat upon God's own throne, whereupon the angels worshiped Enoch.

Ram,

For sure our beliefs are far apart.

One likely reason this is not scripture is this is contrary to biblical truth.

Rev 22:8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Niether Enoch nor archangels are to be worshiped, the Bible, God's word, shows us the truth.

.

Both El and Yahweh were connected to Asherah, the goddess of wisdom and fertility. We even hear her voice in Proverbs, as she encourages us to learn of her ways. Here is what I've written before on the topic from Proverbs:

In Proverbs 8, Wisdom speaks directly to us. She is in the high places and in the groves set up at the cities's gates. She is Asherah, the wife of God. "my mouth shall speak truth", "wisdom is better than rubies", "counsel is mine...I am understanding", "I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me", "then I was by him (God-in the beginning), as one brought up with him."

WOW:eek:

Proverbs 1-9 is poetic in that it personifies wisdom. Wisdom is not literally God's wife Asherah who speaks eloquently about herself and prepares a banquet. Wisdom is a quality of the soul. The purpose of the entire eighth chapter is to praise and exalt wisdom. In conducting this praise, the writer invents a fictional creation story in which wisdom, as an attribute of God, was actually present at creation. Proverbs 3:19 tells us propositionally that “the Lord by wisdom founded the earth.” Proverbs 8 turns that statement into a fictional narrative in which a personified wisdom was present at the creation of the world. It is as simple as that.

If wisdom is Asherah then who is prudence? (Prov. 8:12)

If Asherah said; "counsel is mine...I am understanding", "I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me", Why does not even LDS speak of her? The Bible says Asherah was a Canaanite goddess and kings were right to remove and break thier high places.

Clearly Asherah is an idol. A false diety.

The Bible is only useful if we interpret it correctly. In my life, I've known people that from their interpretation of the bible claimed Jesus was a communist, God was an alien from outer space, that we must earn our own salvation, that we do not have to obey commandments to be saved, that baptism is necessary or not, that God is a Trinity, that Jesus was not divine - just a holy teacher, etc.

That the Bible has those who twist it was fortold by God so we should not be surprised.

2 Peter 3:16

as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

The question is though, of the people you have known with thier false beliefs, how could they come to the truth of scripture without scripture? Surely they have thier "confirmations" in thier heart but if it's false teachings then who confirmed it? Jesus appealed to scripture to answer Satan, what should we appeal to?

One of the strengths of having Bible, Book of Mormon, and modern prophets is that it narrows down the number of personal interpretations one can have, especially on key issues.

Yet only if the BOM and modern prophets are in agreement with the Bible. Surley Jesus and the apostles warned us there would be many false teachers in the future. How are we to know without a God ordained standard with which to test them.

1 John 4:6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Psalm 1 Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful; 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

For sure we will have to agree to disagree.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Soninme

[volgadon]

Ram,

For sure our beliefs are far apart.

One likely reason this is not scripture is this is contrary to biblical truth.

Rev 22:8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Niether Enoch nor archangels are to be worshiped, the Bible, God's word, shows us the truth.

Revelation is an interesting book. In it, the Lord states that the righteous will be worshipped. 3:9.

[Traveler]

Ram, can I be assured that I am following the one true God without my Bible?

How are we to know the truth from error without a standard of truth?

The scriptures are exactly what Jesus appealed to for verification of who He was.

The Bereans were called "more fair-minded" because they "searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so."(Acts 17:11) I believe they were more fair minded because they searched, not because they took it by faith and prayed only.

I too believe one can be saved without the Bible, but without it one is at a serious disadvantage to say the least.

Ps. 119:11 Your word I have hidden in my heart,

That I might not sin against You.

I would ask - to follow the one true G-d and correctly worship him what is more important? To have access to and know and understand doctrine (correctly interpret scripture) or to be loving and compassionate towards G-d and our fellow man?

The Traveler

[volgadon]

Ram, can I be assured that I am following the one true God without my Bible?

Without the Bible how could the children of Israel have been assured that they were following the one true God?

[Soninme]

I would ask - to follow the one true G-d and correctly worship him what is more important? To have access to and know and understand doctrine (correctly interpret scripture) or to be loving and compassionate towards G-d and our fellow man?

Without the Bible how could the children of Israel have been assured that they were following the one true God?

Why do I feel I have to vigorously defend the scriptures on this board? Why did God have prophets and apostles write down His word if it isn't of great eternal importance to Him and to us?

Traveler, how do I know I am truely being loving and compassionate by the true God's standard if I DO NOT know the who true God is? (John 17:3) Yes, God has reaveled Himself in creation, in our hearts and minds and through the Holy Spirit but without scripture can you tell me His name? His Son's name? Did His Son take human flesh and die for us? Was He resurrected? Do we worship each other or Asherah or Baal or the false prophet or the beast or ......?

The children of Israel had the Torah and later the writings of the Prophets and Psalms, they called it "the word of God", and were judged by them, as we will be.

The Bible is only useful if we interpret it correctly.

For sure! Isn't that what God expects us to do? He did after all give us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.(John 16:13)

Unless we are like Moses, Abraham or Adam or Enoch and have direct revelation from God then how will we know the truth. Surely God can save someone without a Bible but is that all there is to salvation, intellectual consent? How does one grow in the wisdom of God without His wisdom which He gave in the scriptures?

How did you find out you are a sinner in need of the Savior Jesus Christ?

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Or should we just not take it so seriously or even ignore it?

May it never be.

[annewandering]

Pray. Even with the bible that really is the only answer.

[volgadon]

The children of Israel had the Torah and later the writings of the Prophets and Psalms, they called it "the word of God", and were judged by them, as we will be.

How about the time beofr they recieved even the partial Torah?

[estradling75]

Why do I feel I have to vigorously defend the scriptures on this board?

Because you equate an attack on how you translate the bible to an attack on the Word itself.

For example when asked to show where trinity is defined in the bible, and you can't point to a single creed being found in the bible. You point to verses that say God is one and other verses that says there is no other god... Then you proceed to translate those words into what your church and belief say they mean to us today. You derive from some verses your creeds and then when faced with verses that seem to counter that, like Christ's body/baptism and Steven's vision, you once again must translate it to fit your creeds. This isn't usual or even wrong, pretty much all the churches that use the bible do this.

You seem to have equated your translation and understanding to being the Word. Again that works for you, but when you come on to a forum primarily populated by a group that claims as an Article of Faith... We believe the bible to be THE WORD OF GOD, as far as it it TRANSLATED CORRECTLY. Then you need to be prepared to separate what the Word says from what you translated to say, and be prepared to defend the accuracy of your translation.

As LDS we read the same Word of God in the form of the bible as you do. Due to our belief that god has continued to call prophets and apostles as he established that he does in the bible, we also have modern revelation. We claim that this give us a superior understanding of the intent and meaning of the Word of God, because the prophet and apostles can talk right to the source of the Word.

You don't agree with this, and again that is fine. God has set up prayer and the Holy Spirit as his way of knowing, but that is also personal and private. That leaves just a debate about accuracies of various translations to talk about on the forums

[volgadon]

Why do I feel I have to vigorously defend the scriptures on this board? Why did God have prophets and apostles write down His word if it isn't of great eternal importance to Him and to us?

Perhaps if you didn't take the ahistorical idea of sola scriptura and bash us over the head with the Bible, the Bible and only the Bible being God's word (an unscriptural position if ever there was one) we wouldn't have a problem.

That it is a record of part of God's word, of great eternal importance and authority, we happily concede.

[Justice]

I have to agree with the last few posters, Soninme. You can go to church next week and talk about how you defended the Bible, the only word of God, against a bunch of Mormons on a forum board. But, deep down you know what we're saying, and you know we're right.

It's your misunderstood use of the term "God-breathed" when describing the Bible that is the issue here. It's that God literally spoke the words of the Bible and they are in their perfect form today. Ignore the fact that there are hundreds of translations of the Bible in the world today and no two are the same. Forget the fact that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Christian churches in the world today all professing belief in the "perfect word of God", yet no two churches agree.

I don't want to be misunderstood. The Bible is "the word of God" as spoken and written by men; as translated and copied by men. If you tell people that we don't believe the Bible is the word of God you'll be lying. We just don't believe the Bible is God-breathed as you profess it to be. We have proof of our claim.