Congratulations to the Occupy movement.

[FunkyTown]

I agree with you completely, Spartan. I have nothing to add, beyond my support for what you're saying.

[Saldrin]

Why is that wrong? I'm gathering from various members of this site that it is morally wrong to be wealthy. Why is it morally wrong?

Its not morally wrong to be wealthy. You earn it, it should be yours period. that being said 80% of the millionaires in the US are first generation wealthy........ sounds like they worked hard to get what they got. and you should be encouraged that through hard work you can also have as much.

[Backroads]

I know this is slightly off the current topic of this thread, but I was just talking with a woman who is big on these protests.

She really believes that all college students should not only be guaranteed a cheap college education (which I suppose is arguable) but should be GUARANTEED EXTRA PLAY MONEY so they can have a "fulfilling" college experience. To her, no college student should have to work hard to put himself through school.

[Saldrin]

I would have found that aggravating since i am paying for my whole education. i think everyone going to college should pay for themselves if they are able because education is not a right, it is a commodity.

I am glad these protesters are not even 1% of 1%.

Articles: Wall Street Mobs Play into Herman Cain's Hands

Edited October 13, 2011 by Saldrin
Fixed URL

[Windseeker]

If you hate Obama so much that everything he says is wrong, then I invite you to starve yourself to death. Because Obama likes food.

wow...fan boy much?

[Spartan117]

80% of the millionaires in the US are first generation wealthy........ sounds like they worked hard to get what they got.

I'm not sure first gen millionaire = honest, hard working. And 80% gets thrown around a lot, I've never found a source for that number. Inflation plays a role in that too, a million today is far and away what a million was 20 years. The corporate scandals in just the last 10 years has been higher than it's ever been. The DoJ doesn't keep records on corporate crime so I can just speculate on that. Since a trillion dollars was funneled into almost all of the prominent corporations in the last few years, I'd have to say the top tier employees at those corporations who took public money to pay out their bonus don't deserve that money. AIG got $218M in bailout money to pay the bonuses of it's top employees. Then took million dollar vacations over and over and over. They sure don't come off as the hard working type.

Bernie Madoff defrauded more money than Enron did. One guy. And that's just what they could prove.

[Spartan117]

education is not a right, it is a commodity

I love that verse from the Savior where he says that. I imagine He will keep that model during the Millennium. Have to make sure poor people can't get an education otherwise **** would just fall apart.

[Backroads]

I love that verse from the Savior where he says that. I imagine He will keep that model during the Millennium. Have to make sure poor people can't get an education otherwise **** would just fall apart.

That's a bit low... let's accuse the Savior of things He never said, shall we? Very tactful.

Higher education is a priviledge. How exactly do you guarantee free college to everyone? And how do you guarantee "play money" when other people are starving?

No one is stopping poor people from getting an education. There are scholarships and grants available to anyone who bothers to actually look for them. Now I'm as big a supporter of educational reform as anyone, but no poor person has the right to say he can't go to college when he doesn't even bother to try.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Backroads

[BenRaines]

From what I have read about these "Occupy Wall Streeters" one of the things they are upset about is the "bailout" of banks. I am going to start another thread about bank bailouts. Please share your understanding, without doing a Google search, what you believe that the bailout was. No one will be ridiculed or harmed on this thread.

Ben Raines

[Spartan117]

That's a bit low... let's accuse the Savior of things He never said, shall we? Very tactful.

I was quite flippant in my post, I thought, I was being sarcastic in trying to point out why education is NOT just commodity, and a matter of finances.

[/quote\Higher education is a priviledge. I don't know of a single country in the world that guarantees free college. I will happily accept correction if there is, but how exactly do you guarantee free college to everyone? And how do you guarantee "play money" when other people are starving?

All these countries offer free post-secondary education.

Argentina

Brazil

Denmark

Finland

Greece

Norway

Scotland

Sri Lanka (limited)

Sweden

"Higher Education" is a privilege in a system where, sadly, it really is nothing more than a commodity. If you can't pay, then you get to stay poor and uneducated.

[beefche]

We know better, and we as Latter-day Saints are held to a different standard ...

So, because the Lord said the love of money is the root of evil, having money is evil? How do you define wealthy? Having 10% more than my neighbor? Having 100% more? Where do you draw the line?

If I remember correctly, we are taught to first seek the kingdom of God then seek after riches (to build the kingdom). Alma taught the people in the BoM that having money wasn't bad, it was their attitude and their "love" of the money that was bad.

Look, I agree that there is corruption in business. Heck, there is corruption in our government. I also agree that those who are wealthy (no matter what the wealth) have the responsiblity to give to others. But, what I don't agree with is the sense of "he's got more than me! so he needs to share that! make him!" attitude I'm seeing across the US. That entitlement attitude bugs the snot out of me. My dad came to this country with nothing more than the clothes on his back--literally. He worked hard for his money and although not a millionaire, he is wealthy. It can be done by even the poorest among us--they may never be super billionaries, but they can get an education and work for an income. And before anyone jumps on me, we will always have poor among us. Pay it forward--get an education (and education doesn't necessarily mean a college degree--trade work is education), work hard and give to those less fortunate than you.

Yes, our economy is bad and there are alot of reasons contributing to that. I don't know the answer either, but basic economics comes to mind--your outgoing spending should be less than your incoming money. I really, REALLY wish our government (and alot of the people) would try harder to follow that piece of common sense.

[Windseeker]

At least in the South American countries you mentioned only the rich can afford the private schools and tutoring necessary to score high enough to gain entrance into these "free" institutions. Not sure about the European countries but I'd be surprised if it's any different.

[Just_A_Guy]

Its not morally wrong to be wealthy. You earn it, it should be yours period. that being said 80% of the millionaires in the US are first generation wealthy........ sounds like they worked hard to get what they got. and you should be encouraged that through hard work you can also have as much.

And there's one other thing:

A lot of millionaires in their fifties or sixties have maybe one or two million dollars--the result of careful saving for retirement. They don't live high on the hog; they keep that money invested and live off the interest. If you can keep that money invested somewhere at 3%, a cool million dollars will earn you about $30K a year.

A lot of people aren't hoarding their wealth because they're greedy or misers; they're keeping it tied up in investments or savings because that's the only way it does them any good.

[Backroads]

All these countries offer free post-secondary education.

"Higher Education" is a privilege in a system where, sadly, it really is nothing more than a commodity. If you can't pay, then you get to stay poor and uneducated.

I do have to wonder how much quality is in the free college education.

Lots of poor people come up with ways to pay.

When I started college, I was working below minimum wage. I found scholarships and loan and gran options. My parents did not contribute to my college. I'm sure if I tallied up what I made, I would be well beneath the poverty line.

Plenty of college students are on the same level as the "too poor to go to college".

I don't understand how being poor is an excuse.

[Windseeker]

The Government schools are the very best and they are free.. To the wealthy who can afford to pay for the education necessary score high on the difficult entrance exam

[Bini]

All I know is that Tent City here in downtown SLC had free coffee and donuts this last weekend. Lucky duckies. Know how much that costs at Starbucks? At least everyone down there has been charitable and not blowing a fuse everytime a homeless person walks into camp and grabs up an arm full of treats and leaves.

[Backroads]

All I know is that Tent City here in downtown SLC had free coffee and donuts this last weekend. Lucky duckies. Know how much that costs at Starbucks? At least everyone down there has been charitable and not blowing a fuse everytime a homeless person walks into camp and grabs up an arm full of treats and leaves.

I doubt anyone on this board is anti-charity or anti-kindness.

But I am against someone who feels entitled to free coffee and donuts, who insists that free coffee and donuts is necessary to his existence.

I might be totally taking your post of context, but I'm having trouble grasping what you mean.

[Saldrin]

I'm not sure first gen millionaire = honest, hard working. And 80% gets thrown around a lot, I've never found a source for that number. Inflation plays a role in that too, a million today is far and away what a million was 20 years. The corporate scandals in just the last 10 years has been higher than it's ever been. The DoJ doesn't keep records on corporate crime so I can just speculate on that. Since a trillion dollars was funneled into almost all of the prominent corporations in the last few years, I'd have to say the top tier employees at those corporations who took public money to pay out their bonus don't deserve that money. AIG got $218M in bailout money to pay the bonuses of it's top employees. Then took million dollar vacations over and over and over. They sure don't come off as the hard working type.

Bernie Madoff defrauded more money than Enron did. One guy. And that's just what they could prove.

Wow a couple of examples thats all you can come up with and you admit its your speculation I stand by what i said 80% prove it wrong with out speculation.

I love that verse from the Savior where he says that. I imagine He will keep that model during the Millennium. Have to make sure poor people can't get an education otherwise **** would just fall apart.

No it is a commodity, in our system people get taxed to get a "free education" from high-school because its free it has become WORTHLESS. I am working two job to put myself through school, and its not to much to ask that you do the same, If your an able bodied worker. however scripture does say this. Moses 4:25 by the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die—for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou wast, and unto dust shalt thou return.

All these countries offer free post-secondary education.

Quote:

Argentina

Brazil

Denmark

Finland

Greece

Norway

Scotland

Sri Lanka (limited)

Sweden

And how many of these countries are in the toilet because of that overspending? Just because they do it doesn't make it a good idea.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Saldrin
adding scripture

[Just_A_Guy]

From George Will:

Demands posted in OWS’ name include . . .

. . . forgiveness of “all debt on the entire planet period.” Progressivism’s battle cry is: “Mulligan!” It demands the ultimate entitlement — emancipation from the ruinous results of all prior claims of entitlement.

[LittleWyvern]

It's interesting, given the fact that the OWS movement has purposely not had a set list of demands, how many people (especially detractors of the movement, as shown above) purport to speak for the movement. I think I'm starting to understand it: the OWS movement would be less inclusive if it had a set list of grievances. All the individual people have their own reasons for joining the protest, although they all share the common theme of being frustrated with wall street and the status quo. It's almost Taoist.

[Just_A_Guy]

Sure; but the tea party got started out in much the same way--it was triggered with that what's-his-name on CNBC who was tired of having to pay his neighbor's mortgage, or whatever it was; and is still a reasonably loose coalition--some social cons have tried to co-opt the movement and encountered quite a bit of internal resistance.

It will be interesting (from a purely organizational-behavior standpoint) to see this unfold.

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[FunkyTown]

wow...fan boy much?

Yes. Because I think a politician is endorsing a political movement due to self-interest rather than because he wants to destroy the American political system, I'm a fanboy.

You, uh... You do realize you're coming off as ignorant and reactionary, right?

[Windseeker]

You, uh... You do realize you're coming off as ignorant and reactionary, right?

Why now are you calling me ignorant?

I don't think your ignorant and I have appreciated many of your posts in the past. It's too bad you feel it necessary to be so offensive.

Edited October 14, 2011 by estradling75
Political Candidates

[skalenfehl]

I can appreciate the Occupy Wall Street movement. The corruption there is merely a symptom, however, and if all those misguided protesters really want to deal with the cancer at the source, they'd occupy the Federal Reserve. Right now, they may as well be occupying Sesame Street.

Why the Federal Reserve? If you go back far enough to Rome, the money changers, the goldsmiths, the fractional reserve lenders, the Bank of England (the Rothschilds), you will see a pattern that Satan has used since deceiving Cain. It is about getting power and gain. It was used among the Jaredites. It was used among the Nephites (Gadiantons), and Moroni warned us that it would happen to us in our day. The Book of Mormon is not just about spiritual things. It is very much a guidebook to understanding the downfall of a civilization and exactly how it happened. And it is happening to us right now in the US and around the world.

The privately owned Federal Reserve Bank (The Fed) is privately owned by a group of primarily foreign bankers. In 1913, Congress sank America into eternal debt by giving the power to issue currency and control the American economic system to the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank. Who are the owners or chief shareholders of the privately owned Federal Reserve? Originally, there were reportedly 203,053 shares of privately owned Federal Reserve stock, of which approximately 65% were owned by foreigners and approximately 35%(72,000 shares) were:

1. Rockefellers’ National City Bank = 30,000 shares

2. Chase National = 6,000 shares (currently Chase Manhattan and owned by David Rockefeller)

3. The National Bank of Commerce = 21,000 shares (now known as Morgan Guaranty Trust)

4. Morgans’ First national Bank = 15,000 shares

Interestingly, the total shares owned by Rockefellers interests equal 36,000 shares and the total of Morgans’ equals 36,000 shares. Although the privately owned Federal Reserve Act of 1913 provided the names of the owner banks be kept a secret, R.E. McMaster, publisher of the newsletter” The Reaper” discovered, through confidential Swiss banking connections, that the following banks have controlling interest in the privately owned Federal Reserve

1. Rothschild Banks of London and Berlin

2. Lazard Brothers Bank of Paris

3. Israel Moses Sieff Banks of Italy

4. Warburg Bank of Hamburg, Germany and Amsterdam

5. Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York

6. Lehman Brothers Bank of New York

7. Goldman Sachs Bank of New York

8. Chase Manhattan Bank of New York (Controlled By Rockefellers)

Do you all think that recessions happen by some coincidence?? These elite bankers create booms and busts (bubbles) for the sole purpose of getting gain and when they lend money to governments, guaranteed by tax payer money, while stuffing the pockets of politicians, you get crony monopolyism. Create a boom and everyone takes out loans, builds businesses, spends heartily, etc. Many foolishly overextend themselves, thinking the getting is good. When the bankers decide the bubble has grown big enough, they contract the money supply. People can no longer afford to pay off their loans and they go bankrupt. Their assets are seized. The elite bankers rake in huge profits and they start all over again.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."--Thomas Jefferson

“The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity.” –Abraham Lincoln

The US founding fathers understood the corruption of banking that plagued England and its surrounding countries because of the brilliantly corrupt Rothschilds and their practice of fractional reserve lending. They didn't just create a constitution with random amendments. There were very specific reasons and they were divinely inspired to create such a document.

The bottom line is this: If the US can return to the constitutional principle of liberty as was designed by the Lord, so much of our country's problems would go away. The problem is, our society is decaying to the point where we are losing our moral compass.

"Now more than ever before, the people are responsible for the character of their Congress. If that body be ignorant, reckless and corrupt, it is because the people tolerate ignorance, recklessness and corruption. If it be intelligent, brave and pure, it is because the people demand these high qualities to represent them in the national legislature.... If the next centennial does not find us a great nation ... it will be because those who represent the enterprise, the culture, and the morality of the nation do not aid in controlling the political forces."--James Garfield, the twentieth president of the United States, 1877

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."--John Adams

I started a discussion thread not to long ago, going into detail, but nobody seems to care for some reason. maybe because it sounds too much like politics. Maybe that's what the Nephites thought, too. Like the Jaredites, they paid the ultimate price:

http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/41775-ether-8-a.html

So the big question is, will YOU awaken to your awful situation or will you be prepared? Stop getting spun by mainstream media and dig deeper into history. Nephi saw our day as did Moroni. We are repeating their history. Rome fell for the same basic reasons. England got into massive debt and that sparked the American Revolution and the drafting of the Declaration of Independence. Now the US is in massive debt for the SAME reasons. Maybe I sound like a broken record now, but hey, even the very elect will be deceived. The very elect ARE being deceived right now. Debt is bondage. It is slavery. It is the removal of agency. The war in heaven is still being waged. Christ's plan was one of agency. Lucifer's plan was not. The US Constitution is under attack and hanging by a thread. It is being trampled under foot.

Are you still asleep?

Edited October 14, 2011 by skalenfehl