And so, old problems rear their head in a new way

[Guest mormonmusic]

Some of you know my situation -- I had a pretty unhappy marriage for 10 years. I learned to cope with the problems and to keep my marriage intact and have been moderately happy for the last eight or so, mostly out of sheer choice and mental discipline.

After some unsuccessful marriage counseling, and much studying of different theories of successful marriages, I found one that described my own marriage very well: Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice by Willard Harley Junior which helped me at least make sense of my unhappiness and find coping strategies.

This is my marriage in a nutshell. I have needs for domestic support, family commitment, attractive spouse, and admiration. My wife has needs for Conversation, Financial Support, Affection, Attractive Spouse and Family Commitment.

By her own reports, I meet these needs pretty well, except perhaps Attractive Spouse since I've aged considerably over the last two decades. I also suffer from making what Harley called 'disrespectful judgments" since I used to harp on things she does wrong, which are normally related to my emotional needs not being met in the marriage.

This is one reason the marriage has survived, however -- I have learned to keep these things to myself, as my wife just gets mad and then stops meeting the other emotional needs she is partway meeting if I bring them up.

For example, if I suggest I'm the one doing all the teaching and training of the kids while she sleeps and locks herself into her room watching TV, and it comes to the blowing point, my mentioning it politely leads to her getting mad. Then she gives up on for example, doing the laundry (which is rarely done consistently anyway, but which she has agreed is her job when I asked everyone to pick a job), a domestic support need I have.

So, i have learned to lean on the fact that we have been successful financially, and that I still find my wife attractive. The other things, I submerge, Sometimes I pay a housecleaning service to come over and get things ship shape. I have instituted framed checklists around the house about what clean means, and kids know and do their jobs against these checklists -- but only when I insist on them. Almost always, it is without my wife who really, couldn't care less about the state of the house. Or if she does her job, she leaves it incomplete (does only enough to make a dent in it, not make it even basically clean).

Anyway, as I have intimated, one huge concern over the years is her lack of interest in helping clean the house. The kids don't get trained -- I have to do it. Even when she was at home all day when they were young. Meals dont' get made except for my diabetic son, and I usually have to do it unless I'm not home. In which case the meal for him may or may not happen.

Recently, I worked three nights a week and Saturday for several months. And when I would get home, my daughter would come to me crying because meals are never made for her, she is ashamed to have people over because the house is a mess. She mentions these things to my wife who doesnt' care or gets angry at her. She cries to me about it regularly.

I find this very hard to listen to, because they echo my thoughts exactly from the last 18 years of marriage -- which have been hard. In fact, it raises the sleeping giant of feelings about separation and getting into a new marriage where I have a wife who meets my needs by caring about helping me teach and train our kids, caring about helping with the household jobs, and who even appears grateful of my own efforts in this area. And whose needs I meet as naturally as possible (something I already do reasonably well, based on the various inventories and talks my wife and I have had).

Now, to have my intelligent daughter coming to me with exactly the same concerns about domestic support, unprovoked, is hard for me to handle. She is 12, and has settled into making meals for the family now and then -- at my advice. Sometimes we do it together, but she comes to me and asks why my wife won't be like other Mormon moms she has observed when at their houses.

I have tried to soft-pedal this issue when my daughter raises it, but frankly, it's an old wound which has only been bandaged by myself -- and my daugther's valid concerns only rile up my unhappiness and submerged thoughts about divorce or separation. I can't do that (divorce or separate) so it just causes angst when I hear all these valid pleas from my daughter. My daughter sometimes gets mad because I don't do anything about my wife's lack of contribution. She doesn't know that we have been to marriage counselling over this, My daughter simply doesn't understand that my wife simply WILL NOT HELP REGULARLY. I have given up on trying to change her - but I cant' share this with my 12 year-old daughter.

I could sympathize with my daughter, and share my frustrations over the years, but that will only make her hate my wife as we grow older, and so far, I have not shared my frustrations in the marriage with my kids.

But I tell you, I'm really angst-filled now, to hear that my daughter, who is intelligent, kind, sensitive, and dependable, echo the same angst I've been experiencing and submerging for almost 20 years.

Comments on what to do here? My daughter and I already take responsibility for most of the house, although my wife is doesn't help much. This frustrates me, particularly when my wife comes and thanks me for doign the work she has agreed to and neglected for weeks on end when I finally do it for her. I only feel resentment for her thanks because frankly, I would rather she just did her part in this relationship -- particularly since she's agreed to it.

She even is saying she is jealous of all the time my daughter and I spend together now, talking and working together, at her personal time for conversation....I can't tell you how frustrated I am right now.

Comments on what to do? I tell, you talking to my wife will be a dead end. That is over. I shared my daugther's concerns with her and that led to only defesnive statements that we don't appreciate her -- and then neglect of the minimal work she does around here in the first place in the usual pattern.

[Guest]

Is your wife clinically depressed?

[Suzie]

Mormonmusic, I'm sorry to hear that things have not improved. You seem overwhelmed at the amount of things that you are doing and of course, having your own daughter crying about this must be heartbreaking.

I know a little about your situation based on what you have wrote in the past and I am still unsure why do you choose to stay in this marriage if it makes you unhappy? And now it seems like it is also affecting your children. You tried counseling and it didn't work and to be honest (and I said it before) it seems like your wife takes you for granted because in the end she knows you will stick with her no matter what and do whatever chores or things she was supposed to do. It really touched me to hear about your diabetic son and the fact that you are the one making all the meals for him, it touches me because I am a mother myself and that nurturing instinct is generally always present in women.

Then I must ask you: Do you love her? I mean, do you really LOVE her to the point of sacrificing years of happiness just so you all stay married? I think I asked before if she is depressed or taking any meds (cannot remember the answer)

I do not want to sound pessimist but I don't think she will change. If in the past 10 years she hasn't then she will not change, older you get...harder the chances for change so maybe it isn't about what she will do (because if she feels threaten, she will start doing her chores again to keep you happy for a while and then stop...a crazy vicious cycle) but let's be honest, she behaves in the way she does because she knows you will be there to rescue her, prepare the meals if necessary and do whatever is needed. She knows this very well and will keep doing so until the end. I am sorry if I am not being very positive but that's how I see it.

The question is: Are you willing to live like this for the next 20-30 years?

Sorry but it's madness.

[Bini]

Mormonmusic, I've also followed some of your posts and I'm sorry for what you're going through. You have been strong for all this time in carrying the burdens of your wife without much if anything in return for many years. It's true that in a marriage there is a lot of giving. Sometimes you give more than you receive. But from what I'm understanding, your wife is not making any effort on her part and it's directly affecting not just you but your kids too. Suzie's post says it best.

[sister_in_faith]

I wondered the same thing Eowyn... I WANT to be a good house-girlfriend, especially because I stay at home while my honey works. I want to do things, like clean the house and make dinner, but I literally CAN'T. The house is an absolute shambles, and I am very ashamed of it. If my honey started giving me a hard time about it, it would crush me, because I WANT to do it, and make him happy.

Right now my goal is to get a Christmas tree up this year, and at least clean up the living room, and maybe the kitchen for the holidays. I'm not making much progress.

My depression makes me so tired it takes me all week to recouperate (sp?) from going to a full 3 hour block of church on Sunday.

Symptoms of depression in women include:

-persistent sad, anxious, or "empty" mood

-loss of interest or pleasure in activities, including sex

-restlessness, irritability, or excessive crying

-feelings of guilt, worthlessness, helplessness, hopelessness, pessimism

-sleeping too much or too little, early-morning awakening

-appetite and/or weight loss or overeating and weight gain

-decreased energy, fatigue, feeling "slowed down"

-thoughts of death or suicide, or suicide attempts

-difficulty concentrating, remembering, or making decisions

-persistent physical symptoms that do not respond to treatment, such as headaches, digestive disorders, and chronic pain

Any of that sound familiar?

[Bini]

I have a lot of sympathy for individuals suffering from depression or mood disorders. I was diagnosed Bipolar and I can't begin to tell you the whirlwind lifestyle I once lived. That said, there are lots of helpful resources out there for people who can't battle this alone. There's groups, medication and counseling. I strongly encourage anyone who is going through depression or has a mood disorder, to try the things mentioned above before deciding that you're failing. Even when you've tried everything, there's no magic pill and it's important to know that these things take time. Knowing your "triggers" are just as important as having solid support.

Mormonmusic, if your wife has depression etc, has she tried any of the above?

[Guest mormonmusic]

No, she isn't chronically depressed. She did have post-partum depression but that was many, many years ago with the birth of my 8 year-old son. She did have episodic periods of depression after the fact (and so have I, triggered mostly by Church experiences and overwork strangely for me, but nothing in the last year and a half). However, we are both fairly even keeled.

She also has a trait called Positivity based on personality tests we took, which makes her view most situations optimistically -- almost to the point of denial of possible events on the horizon for which a person needs to be prepared. So, while there are some depressive episodes, the combination of medication during episodic episodes and the fact that it's not chronic makes it a non-issue. As I said, this inattention to domestic work-sharing has been going on for 18 years.

The problem is -- she is lazy in domestic responsibilities. Gets no energy from doing housework whatsoever. She hates it. She sees the kids as an inconvenience in the evenings because it interferes with watching television or reading. Time to herself, every day for several hours is vitally importan to her happiness -- at the expense of other things.

However, she is amazing in her work -- very responsible at work and her employers always love her. She beat out 50 applications for a job at a law firm recently as an admin assistant -- that is her charisma and personality and capability -- part of what attracted me to her. In this economy, she applied for ONE JOB, and got it.

In terms of causes -- her sister visited us in the summer and it was a nightmare for me. I had to live with several attitudes and phrases and mothering behaviors that were EXACT DUPLICATES of my wife's that she has forsaken (the extreme ones) for three solid weeks. She did no work while she was here to clean up after herself. Taken with some experiences I had on a road trip with her parents a few months ago, I see I am mostly facing the results of ineffective parenting from her mother, primarily. Her father is a push-over and is bossed around by her mother, and was expected to do all the housework etcetera. My wife therefore tends to expect me to do the same, although long ago, given the fact I am 10 years older than her and not invertebrate, she learned that I am not to be pushed around in the household. Yet, she still refuses regular, reliable and willing help with domestic responsibilities, although she will pay lip service to it.

Regarding Suzie's question -- about happiness for the next 20 years. The time divorce would have been before we had children. At the time, I believed so strongly in the eternal covenant that I felt there was no way I could be true to God and myself by breaking up. She felt the same. Plus, I misinterpreted statement over the pulpit from a Bishop in which he said he was told never to counsel anyone to split up. I was young at the time, and took this counsel to mean "never split up". I also felt saddened by what would happen to her given the physical problem she had at the time I was considering a divorce. I did love her and wondered what her chances would be for happiness in this life....i now question that whole line of thinking, but I feel it is too late for now.

Also, as DH Oakes said, the aftermath can be as terrible as the actual divorce. There would be child support payments, possibly alimony, loss of property, and who knows -- would I be happier with someone else? I have learned valuable lessons, that is for sure -- for example, I KNOW that the woman I should have married is strongly committed to raising children, to helping with the house (notice I said HELPING) and has an ongoing sense of appreciation and admiration for me (sorry, I guess I like the feeling the persen I married appreciates me for who I am -- it triggers love). She would also not resort to dirty looks, testy body language and voice tone, and actually likes working hard alongside me for common goals. She leaves me relatively free to really dedicate myself to both child-rearing and professional development by lifting at least 50% of the burden of running a household with me.

Anyway, divorce is not an option. I have a wonderful daughter who is blossoming in so other ways, and she is like a cold drink the desert when she pitches in to help me. This is an upside of her own personal angst. I feel the stress leave when she comes into my room and asks me to help her clean up the house, and works alongside me until its done. I also have a son who, if left in the hands of my wife alone, I'm very afraid for. He has a chronic disease, and when I was not able to be home to manage it, his blood sugar numbers went way beyond acceptable. I then took full responsibility for it, and got it into the normal range again -- I can't leave him to that without my presence.

Plus, my wife agrees that the quality of our children is largely due to my influence. She tells me that occasionally if I ever doubt the job we have done so far. I could not leave my kids alone in her hands. It would kill me.

I have hopes that things will change. They have improved over the years. There are several attitudes from her mother that she has stopped. It came as we talked about our backgrounds etcetera. At times she has asked me to help her with her parenting skills. And she still loves me. I do have residual love as well, although my daughter's reminders are making it very hard for me now.

There was an episode a few minutes ago where my daughter wanted to learn to sew so she can change the curtains in her bedroom. She needed my wife to show her how to sew a hem. I listened from the next room, and the testiness, the anger, the fact that it was inconvenient for my wife who wanted time alone to herself, and ended with my daughter stalking off and crawling under the covers in her room. I went in an talked to her about it ...and she later came into my office crying and I comforted her. So, there is the family commitment need unment -- I started wondering who I could pay to come over and show my daughter with kindness how to operate a sewing machine. Or, whether i could figure it out myself through downloadable instructions.

There was another episode earlier after I posted the OP. She called me and at the end of the convo I asked her if she could clean up an area in the house she agreed to. I said that I've been cleaning up after her areas for some time now, and I would be lying if I said I wasn't resenting it. She then launched into how half of it is not her problem, it was my daugther's mess since there was a side deal where my daugther cooks meals and cleans up if my wife does the family room. I didnt' know about this, but the family room never gets clean lately. She then argued with me about whether the house even needed a cleaning, so I just asked her to clean the kitchen to quell my angst as I was getting close to the point of breaking -- and got off the phone since I was so frustrated inside and didn't want to show it.

Guess I'm just venting. I'm thinking of getting some counseling -- personal counseling since I know my wife will never change. The coping will be centered on finding happiness in my relationship with my daughter, and perhaps helping my son. He shows signs of being like my wife in most ways however, which is hard to manage -- to see the next generation adopt some of her attitudes. But my daughter is strongly in the camp of cleanliness, responsiblity, kindness, working hard alongside people you love. I get strength from that.

[normaje]

Have you guys tried a marriage counselor or just a do-it-yourself? There may be some other reason she doesn't keep up the house. IMO children should not be responsible for the upkeep of home or cooking of dinners. But I see no reason they can't help with some of the chores. I hate cooking so I am relieved when my husband picks up the slack when I can't think of a good reason to do more than sandwiches or mac-n-cheese. :)

Hiring someone would be a good solution to the house cleaning.

[sister_in_faith]

Music, I hate to say this, but it sounds like you may just have to suck it up. But if leaving her is not an option and she will not change, the only thing you can change is YOU. You may have to just work on not letting it bother you. I think it sux, but I can't see any other option. I won't harp on THIS subject any more, but maybe she has some other kind of mental illness, not depression? I don't know.

I have a quirk where for a long time I couldn't do any kind of house work IN FRONT of anyone. This stemmed from childhood issues. Maybe there is just something in her psychy that makes it difficult for her. Have you tried to figure out WHY she doesn't want to do housework? Is it just that she doesn't like it, or is there something you can work with her on?

If you REALLY can't work with her on this, you are going to just have to deal with it on your own. At this point her behavior is effecting her children too, so you will have to try and figure out how to minimize her impact on them.

I wonder if you started to invite other women over to the house to do things like teach your daughter how to sew if it would kick start her mothering feelings? Or that could just start a fight. Hummmm

[crashdown]

The problem is -- she is lazy in domestic responsibilities. Gets no energy from doing housework whatsoever. She hates it. She sees the kids as an inconvenience in the evenings because it interferes with watching television or reading. Time to herself, every day for several hours is vitally importan to her happiness -- at the expense of other things.

However, she is amazing in her work -- very responsible at work and her employers always love her. She beat out 50 applications for a job at a law firm recently as an admin assistant -- that is her charisma and personality and capability -- part of what attracted me to her. In this economy, she applied for ONE JOB, and got it.

Is it possible she derives more pleasure, satisfaction, appreciation, respect, accolades, power, etc., from her outside-the-home work rather than her domestic work? Some women just don't like cooking/cleaning as much as they do working outside the home. Perhaps she thinks it's degrading? Does she think it is a drudgery? Is she overworked at her job and therefore exhausted when she comes home?

I don't know, I'm just trying to brainstorm what could be causing her to act like that. Obviously, it's very trying for you and obviously you are trying very hard to keep your marriage together and to support her. I think you are a good man with a good heart and I am impressed with all that you are doing to love and support her.

Edited October 29, 2011 by crashdown

[Guest]

I hate housework too, but it needs to be done. I like time alone, too, but there are things that need to be done. I suspect there's another issue, but laziness on its own is not an acceptable excuse for abandoning you and your children, as she has. I see a bit of this tendency in myself, though to a much lesser degree. What I do to overcome it won't help you directly, I suppose, since she's not open to change. But I think of how things would be for my husband if I totally withdrew and left him to everything, and didn't support him in his role of providing for the family by making efforts in my role of nurturing and keeping the home fires burning, as it were, and I feel pretty indignant in your behalf. I'm so sorry you're going through this. I think it's worth counseling with your bishop, and a therapist, on your own. If you have the funds, get a housekeeper a couple of times a month so that you have at least some time where things get into better condition. Maybe look into some meal options that can be frozen- there are places you can go to make meals to freeze and take them home. That might be a fun date for you and your daughter, or for your wife if she's willing. Maybe she's just overwhelmed and knowing that those things are happening will spur her to do a little more. That's how I work sometimes: when I see progress in one area, I'm energized to put my efforts into another. I'm rambling a bit, but I wanted to tell you I really feel for you, and I hope you can find some way to ease your burden. At very least I imagine that Heavenly Father smiles on your great work in keeping your family together for the benefit of your children.

[Just_A_Guy]

MM, hopefully everything will work out and the relationship will improve--if nothing else, once the kids are out of the house and there's less housework to be done. But FWIW, I'd recommend talking to a financial planner and/or attorney now, letting them know that a divorce may be on the horizon 15-20 years down the road, and ask what you can do now to make sure that the divorce won't wreck your retirement plans. (I'm not talking about hiding assets or anything; I'm just talking about making sure there's enough there that if your marital estate gets split down the middle you can both live comfortably.)

Again--hopefully you'll get through this together. But if worse comes to worst, and you're stuck with an alimony payment, you don't want that payment to force you to keep working through your golden years and up to the day you die.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Thanks for the advice....I appreciate it. I've tried counseling, housekeepers (which I end up resenting when I pay the bill) and just about everything. I was thinking more about what my daughter can and cannot know when I opened this post, or how to deal with it when she comes to me in tears and I feel like just joining her.

I have made a decision to stay with this...so divorce is not an option.

It is a powerful relationship as she is meeting needs that have been left completely unmet by my wife all these years (in a healthy father-daugther way). As a result, the temptation to share what I have tried and what I have put up within the departments of domestic support is very strong as she understands it more intimately than anyone and she is very mature for her age and fully capable of talking about many kinds of adult things related to domestic support and family commitment. But in the end, I think it will only hurt my daughter to know this stuff.

I had another inciteful statement the other day....I teach music lessons to a little girl, and her single mother and I have become platonic friends. She asked me how I put up with living in such a mess. I explained it is hard as it is not the way I was raised or consistent with my life expectations. I explained how I've lowered my expectations and just try to shut it out.

This woman cleans for me unasked when my wife is not home as I teach her daughter -- she and her other daughter wash the floor, scrub counters, etcetera since I teach the lessons for free -- she is a single mother and low income...so this is her way of showing me appreciation...there is no inappropriate romantic interest there in either of our parts (she is of a different nationality, doesn't speak english very well, is obese and has 3 children so there is not a smidgen of romantic interest by the way). These convos which echo my feelings are tough.

I like Just_A_Guy's advice. I may do that as who knows what will happen when my kids are out of the house although I hope things take another upswing -- we have them at times -- usually when we hit a major financial goal. We are good at setting and making such goals, which helps.

It also begs another question -- was a temple marriage a healthy thing in my situation? Is it wise to necessarily make promises you will stay with someone for eternity when you have so little information to go on when you get married -- when so much is learned only after you have made such a commitment?

I entered it with full commitment, and I've kept that commitment. But is it worth the cost of one's deep personal happiness to keep that eternal convenant?

[Now some will say you should pray about it. Well, my wife said she had revelation she should do it -- when i prayed, I got nothing either way. I was 28 at the time and ready for marriage, and loved her, and in the absence of any clear revelation, I went ahead making the best decision I could.]

[Guest]

I have a couple of thoughts that I'm just pulling out of my back pocket, so give them whatever worth you deem appropriate.

Sometimes I find myself in an ongoing headlock with my husband over things. Eventually someone has to give (usually him, unfortunately. Working on it.), and then resolution really starts. For instance, you say you've hired housekeepers, but it makes you resentful. How about approaching it like this, even if you have to fake it at first: tell her that living in a clean, peaceful home is important to you, but you recognize that it's not on her priority list and that she hates cleaning. So to compromise, you'll hire someone to come in every week, 2 weeks, whatever to get the house clean. Maybe even make it a special day where you take her or everyone out to do something together, and when you get home, the house is clean. First of all, it could be an acknowledgment that she might need that she hates to clean, and resents that you expect it of her (especially if she's also working outside the home, which I'm getting to). Then maybe in coming home to a clean house, she'll see the difference it makes in how you feel, how the environment feels, and how your children act. It's a long shot, but again, it doesn't look like she's going to change this anytime soon, so at very least you'll get the clean(er) house you want and less conflict, if you're willing to see the payment to the cleaning person as a deposit toward more peace and not something to feel resentful about.

Second, I get that she is working outside the home? This is not an attack in any way, but it occurs to me that there are many many women in the same position as you are: they work outside the home, and are expected to come home and keep the house and do the child-rearing while hubby sits on his tail watching football or playing first-person shooters. Not that it justifies her behavior in any way, but I just find it interesting that it's such a huge, grievous thing when the woman is coming home from work and retreating, but men "get away with it" so often.

Just some things to think about, hopefully with something valuable. :)

[Guest]

Oh and one more thing that I feel moved upon to share. I don't know if it relates to your situation at all, but maybe it will help someone.

Things in my marriage turned around totally when it hit me one day that I was in constant power struggles with my husband, and for what? I was seeing it as, there's my way and his way, and someone has to win, so I have to fight for my why. Then it occurred to me that this is the man I fell in love with as a young woman, the man I shared dreams together with. I knew that he loved me deeply and I loved him. We ought not be opponents looking to beat each other, but partners, true companions, working together to find solutions that work for us both. Once I started choosing to look at him as my sweetheart who loves me, and not an obstacle to getting what I want, the change in our relationship was dramatic.

[skippy740]

But FWIW, I'd recommend talking to a financial planner and/or attorney now, letting them know that a divorce may be on the horizon 15-20 years down the road, and ask what you can do now to make sure that the divorce won't wreck your retirement plans. (I'm not talking about hiding assets or anything; I'm just talking about making sure there's enough there that if your marital estate gets split down the middle you can both live comfortably.)

As a Chartered Financial Consultant, I don't think there's much of ANYTHING a financial planner can do regarding planning for asset preservation in the event of a divorce.

QDRO (Qualified Domestic Relation Orders) will split a qualified plan... except a pension (I think). I think true pensions and immediate annuities are the only assets that might not be attachable through divorce. (I can be wrong. Please consult the proper professionals in your state.)

Courts can go after just about any money at any time. There may be certain trusts that can work to "shelter" assets, but I'm not an expert on those.

Basically, I think working with an attorney in your state is the best advice... and THEN following through with your attorney and financial planner.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Second, I get that she is working outside the home? This is not an attack in any way, but it occurs to me that there are many many women in the same position as you are: they work outside the home, and are expected to come home and keep the house and do the child-rearing while hubby sits on his tail watching football or playing first-person shooters. Not that it justifies her behavior in any way, but I just find it interesting that it's such a huge, grievous thing when the woman is coming home from work and retreating, but men "get away with it" so often.

Just some things to think about, hopefully with something valuable. :)

Thsi was one response I was expecting. Let me address it. [

"I do everything and go to school and work part-time too. I am not the husband who sits with his feet up and watches sports while expecting his wife to do everything -- I do my part".

I work hard -- she is no worse off than I am. She was like this when she was a full-time stay at home Mom for several years as well. So, I consider the "it's hard to be a woman working full-time and be a housekeeper and child-rearer" argumetn invalid in this case. And I do my part. I simply want help.

For example,. yesterday, my son's room is a pig stye. He is a tough case for being a kid -- behavior problems etcetera, unlike my daughter. So, he has never learned to put things away. It has been too much for me to tackle alone given the other challenges in my household. Eventually his room gets so messy I realize something has to be done. I usually go in there and clean it myself. Once I hired maids to do it. Another time my daughter and I did it to get it orderly, so we could start teaching him to do a quick clean-up daily. She always refuses to get involved to help me with this.

For exampe,. yesterday, I said to my wife "could you help me clean his room today"? It was Saturday and we had no plans. It was such a big job. She got angry at me, saying it's not her responsiblitty to put his clean clothes away after she washes them, that he has to learn to clean it himself. I asked, so what should our plan be? Her solution was to order him to clean his room, to which he actually refused and left the room. At this point, she went back to bed and slept.

So, I found him and told him to come with me to clean his room. He refused. I said that he had to do it. He refused. I then resorted to a counting mechanism "One, Two, Three". He knows that if I get to three without his obedience there will be SEVERE consequences -- some major privilege withdrawn that really is unpleasant...so he always obeys. He came with me, and together we cleaned it up.

But responsibility for teaching him to clean his room will fall directly on my shoulders for the rest of his life, and he is a hard case. She simply will not help coming out with innane arguments that leave the problem unsolved.

It is these things that leave me with an absolute sense of hopelessness about the ability of our family to success in this respect, and leave family commitment need completely unment.

Anyway, I guess this should end now. As you know, if she is unwilling to change, and I choose to stay, I just have to suck it up.

As I said, I get soem free counselling through and employee assistance program. I will probably take them up on it to help me get through the doldrum periods and be happy. I have achieved levels of happiness over the years through self-discipline and right thinking, and focusing on the positives -- attractiveness and the fact that we are able to achieve financial goals. We are about to hit a major one in within a month or two and it energizes our relationship when it happens.

Edited October 30, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Guest]

No no no, I hope you understand that I wasn't saying you're one of those men. It's very clear that you're not. I was just making a very general, interesting-to-me observation that this seems much more serious, even to me, when the woman withdraws at home than when the man does. Maybe that's because our role and responsibility is much more designed to be nurturer, and to me a big part of that revolves around home, food, etc. But then I haven't worked outside the home for years.

I really do hope you'll take care of yourself. We had a dear friend that was in an almost identical position, though he had 2 teenage daughters and no younger kids by the time we met him. He was running a business and the home, and his wife would work and then go home and go to bed. He was always so stressed and so tired, and I don't think he ever did much for himself. We lost him to cancer a couple of years ago and we can't help but wonder how much his life contributed to that. My husband and I were talked about this last night and he said something about how a man's body doesn't handle long-term stress as well as a woman's or something like that. I can't remember and I certainly don't have a citation, but it did concern me for your well-being. That's another reason I encourage you to get some outside help with house and maybe meals, and hopefully you're making time to do some things you enjoy, too. Music is very healing for me, so maybe you have that for an outlet. Good luck.

[Guest mormonmusic]

No no no, I hope you understand that I wasn't saying you're one of those men. It's very clear that you're not. I was just making a very general, interesting-to-me observation that this seems much more serious, even to me, when the woman withdraws at home than when the man does. Maybe that's because our role and responsibility is much more designed to be nurturer, and to me a big part of that revolves around home, food, etc. But then I haven't worked outside the home for years.

Thanks -- I'm glad you clarified that. I've seen other people express concerns about their wives in this way, and it can lead to a tirade from other stay at home moms about how everything can't be perfect etcetera.

I really do hope you'll take care of yourself...

Another thing that has sustained me is that my wife has been pretty good about letting me pursue hobbies. So, after marriage, when it was clear there would be little fulfilment from the relationship due to the problem some of you know about, I asked if I could pursue a couple hobbies. We made the investment and I am now a professional musician, and also learned to build musical instruments professionally. This happened during the period we were childless. I don't do much of that now, other than play in a band once every two weeks, which is fulfilling.

However, I want to explain what stops me from leaving. I decided my son will learn to be an organized kid after it was clear there would be no help from my wife. Yesterday, after we got his room back in shape, this morning, we talked, and he said he would be willing to let me teach him how to keep it clean on a daily basis. We started this morning and straightened it up from his play date yesterday with a bunch of kids. It took about 15 min to do it.

At the end, I Knighted him Sir Organized Boy with his plastic sword and he got this big smile and thought it was fun. I can see he is ready to engage with it -- at least, for the time being. These things give me hope -- the impact of having a home that appears normal and the hope that at least my efforts will have an impact on my kids -- as they have with my daughter. I doubt if there will be such a positive impact in a divorced relationship.

Edited October 30, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Just_A_Guy]

These things give me hope -- the impact of having a home that appears normal and the hope that at least my efforts will have an impact on my kids -- as they have with my daughter. I doubt if there will be such a positive impact in a divorced relationship.

Exactly. I try to explain this to my male divorce clients; but most of them aren't as level-headed (or, frankly, as dedicated to their kids) as you are.

[Blocky]

I keep thinking about this post. I think probably because I am a horrible horrible house cleaner. My house until very recently was always a wreck. In the last 3 weeks or so it's starting to get better. It took me reading a book with very specific ideas on creating routines and getting rid of clutter to even start to change things around here. Also, I do need a lot of 'down time.' The difference is though that I'm actively trying, every day and I'm engaged with my family.

So this leads me to ask, is the house being messy an issue aside from your wife's general attitude towards what is expected for her in life, or a symptom of that attitude?

If it's just part of the course with how she views what should be done by her, and how she want's to be in regard to her interactions with the family and house I'd say just start applying those principles you've already adapted in regards to coping with your wife. Your kids can learn from you and that can be enough for them. If you were the only parent, it would be all on you anyways. Though, sometimes in that situation it feels it would be easier to be the only parent and know exactly what you have to do instead of relying on someone and being disappointed over and over again.

If it is just the house, and she'd like it to be clean but it's super stressful and tiring, physically and mentally to her, perhaps she has some of the same issues as I did. I spent hours cleaning everyday. None the less, my house looked like a war zone all the time, food on the table from the day/s before. Dishes piles high, a few wet diapers here and there, mountain of laundry, who knows where the library books are because I can't even open the door to the play room etc. I'd joke sometimes that I was doing something wrong, because I was cleaning so much and yet it was never ever enough and it was so hard. Really I was doing something wrong. The first thing was I just had too much stuff. You can't organize clutter, not really. Also, I had an all or nothing attitude. The dining room floor would be gross for so long because I didn't have the 20 minutes it would take to do a decent job. So, I stopped doing a decent job and just did a 2 minute spot job.. next thing I know the floor in there isn't looking too bad and a 2 minute swipe pretty much finishes it up. So, basically, even though I knew how to wash dishes, scrub a toilet, fold laundry, I didn't know how to keep up on it in a way that was efficient, effective and rewarding (working for 15 minutes and seeing a change in a room is rewarding, slaving for 2 hours and it looking the same not so much).

It is a total bummer to feel like you're pulling extra weight. Even though I suck at house cleaning (getting better!) I know the feeling of feeling like it's all on me. Thankfully I'm learning from my husband, who is pretty much happy with whatever I do. It's liberating to see him happy with whatever I cook him even if it's chicken nuggets. His acceptance of me helps me want to do even better for him and our family. Maybe that's what she needs? If my husband criticizes me, I feel crushed and can have a hard time wanting to anything until I get over it. That reminds me of her just going to the room and shutting the door. Luckily it doesn't happen to often with us and I'm learning to not be so sensitive (in a good way).

I think it's great that you're there for your kids. I was raised by my father only until I was 10 and just having a parent actively involved in your life is really the most important thing. In addition that you're teaching them important life skills is great. I hope your life is a little less stressful, soon, and if not, that you at least get to enjoy some quality time with the kiddos.

One last idea, has she gone for personal counseling? You mentioned marriage counseling I believe. I went to a psychologist for a few sessions, even though I was very wary of his effectiveness. He opened my eyes to a few ways I had of thinking that were very unproductive. Like your wife, I can be an eternal optimist, but I get crushed/shutdown/overwhelmed in emotional situations very easily sometimes. The psychologist gave me a few simple tools to keep me from being so..... crazy... to my husband. I went originally because issues we were having, but really we just needed to work on our individual issues the most.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Blocky

[normaje]

You said your son has some disabilities? Could he have ADHD? This can also be your wife's problem, many adults have ADHD as well that are undiagnosed. I have ADHD children...they are not told to clean their room and left for themselves, because of their disability they need help to organize and put away. I help them do a deep clean once a month or every other month depending on the mess. Inbetween the deep clean (where I help them decide to throw away) they are told in steps what to do. For example I tell them a step "pick up toys and put in toy bucket", after this task is completely finished I say "pick up clothes and put in clothes basket", and so on until everything is in its place. My kids are taught everything has a place. If it doesn't belong to any place it gets thrown away. If they want to keep it they have to find what place it belongs. I let my children do the work and I supervise. I only do physical work on deep clean day.

However, I suspect this really isn't about the housework but more about the spouse's attitude toward what you feel is important.

[NeuroTypical]

My daughter simply doesn't understand that my wife simply WILL NOT HELP REGULARLY. I have given up on trying to change her - but I cant' share this with my 12 year-old daughter.

"Sorry honey, Mom just doesn't clean that much. You and I are the cleaners of the family - if we're going to have a clean house, it's you and me that will get it done. You can't make people be what you want - you can just be the kind of person you want. Here's a mop - you take the bathrooms, I'll do the kitchen and living room."

That's what it looks like when you've given up on trying to change your wife. Maybe someday you'll actually do it, but that day has obviously not yet come. No really - YOU HAVEN'T STOPPED TRYING TO CHANGE HER. Your entire post looks like a desperate clawing for the next thing to try on your wife. Seriously - your wife doesn't clean. She never will. You didn't marry a cleaner. The only relevant advice here, is accept it and move on. Of course your kid is picking up on the fact. Everybody knows mom doesn't clean - it's not exactly a secret.

Was there any homework from that marriage builders class on how to forgive, accept, and move on? Go do it again. That's my comment on what to do, and you asked for comments on what to do. Maybe in the afterlife, when she's released from the burdens and limitations of being her, she'll clean. But the more you take offense that you're not seeing it in this life, the more time you're wasting making your marriage worse instead of better.

[Guest mormonmusic]

You said your son has some disabilities? Could he have ADHD? This can also be your wife's problem, many adults have ADHD as well that are undiagnosed. I have ADHD children...they are not told to clean their room and left for themselves, because of their disability they need help to organize and put away. I help them do a deep clean once a month or every other month depending on the mess. Inbetween the deep clean (where I help them decide to throw away) they are told in steps what to do. For example I tell them a step "pick up toys and put in toy bucket", after this task is completely finished I say "pick up clothes and put in clothes basket", and so on until everything is in its place. My kids are taught everything has a place. If it doesn't belong to any place it gets thrown away. If they want to keep it they have to find what place it belongs. I let my children do the work and I supervise. I only do physical work on deep clean day.

However, I suspect this really isn't about the housework but more about the spouse's attitude toward what you feel is important.

There is no ADHD. He can concentrate for HOURS on a lego set that is complicated. He has diabetes -- that is his disability, so to speak. My wife doesnt' have that problem either. She can be highly focused on thigns she deems important.

She meets deadlines in her work, and is responsible on the bare bones things that MUST get done, like driving my son to school (I drive my daughter). She begrudes driving my daughter to piano. I drive my son to soccer when I am home and not working. She feels that because she does all these things she is absolved of all responsibility for others things I am asking for help with.

You are right -- the approach you use is exactly what I do when I train my kids. I set up the expectations, and do it with them the first couple times. We go through the checklist to verify everything is done. I also attach work to priviledges. If they say "I need to go to the store to get a new pair of shoes"...I will look around for undone jobs and say "We can go, but only after you have cleaned your room and put your dishes in the dishwasher".

We also have a Family Cleaning Guidelines document I wrote up after 17 years of trying and failing. It details general things such as a) helping others even though its not your job, but not expecting it from others either b) Parents can ask children to clean anything at any time c) cleaning is more important that technology, movies, games, friends, Church callings (I got flack on that one but stood my ground given the potential for laziness to wreck my marriage and the home) or hobbies etcetera. e) appreciation should be given by others, but should not be expected. We read parts of it when we have family home evening. I needed it written down so I could enforce it consistently and remind them as well.

Anyway, I have read all the books on cleaning and organization. We have a huge book on it. We understand the need for weeding belongings to make space. We have baskets, storage, and we don't accept other people's junk. I have read several books on the subject like the The Messies Manual : The Procrastinator's Guide to Good Housekeeping, The Family That Works Together, How To Organize Everything, Clutter's Last Stand...and so has my wife.

Good News

I took the plunge again last night and spoke to my wife for about an hour about how unhappy I am with her habits around the house. Her reaction was typical and she got angry saying "you just need a new wife". "Your expectations are too high for me". "I don't want to do anything else because if I do, you'll then add something else to it". "I don't know why you stay with me, nothing I do is ever good enough". She tried to just get up and leave three times, leaving the situation unresolved. I got firm and told her we are in a crisis and that we needed to talk until we got a resolution.

I also went through her emotional needs and asked how I was doing on them. She said that in the last two weeks I haven't been affectionate enough. I explained it's because I've been so angry the house is such a mess and after 17 years she doesn't seem to understand the link between my warm fuzzies and her behavior. I also shared the confirming complaints from my daughter haven't helped. I asked her to do the Emotional Needs Questionnaire so we can talk about it and I can hear how I can also do better as a husband. She agreed.

We got to an interesting part of it. I asked her what a home is for. She said 'for relaxing". I said yes partly, but it's first and foremost a forum for teaching your kids how to live with other people, be productive citizens and happy people who value cleanliness. That is part of the problem. She lives for relaxing and other domestic chores are seen as a hassle. My view is that relaxing comes after the work has been done!

Finally, she agreed to do better. And I made a list of things I want help with. The whole family then pitched in and cleaned the whole house against the checklists and she didn't bail halfway through like she often does -- nor did she leave items undone. It is now orderly and respectable in all rooms but her personal room where she goes to read and watch TV, which I don't care about.

It's amazing, after the whole family cleaned, I felt so much happier and better again. It's all it takes with me now that age has set in and made other unmet needs less important.

I recognize this will take constant attention for the rest of my life. There will be dips, slides, and periods when I'm ready to quit as well as periods of happiness when she helps. But I like Just_Guy's comment. The cost of a divorce may well outweigh the benefits so long as I have these flickers of progress to energize me. Even the cost of an occasional housekeeper when we need a major reset is cheaper than a divorce, although I hate paying those housekeeping fees.

Two things. If people are thinking of getting married, I think it's real important to judge housekeeping standards both spouses bring to the table. It's amazing how the grind of housecleaning can destroy a temple marriage if expectations are too far apart.

Second, this problem of unequally yoked spouses in domestic responsibilites is a problem for many men, and women. If you do a search on "wife won't clean house" or "my wife is lazy" in Yahoo or Google, you will see the topic has many long threads with many frustrated husbands and wives too.

When I read them, I see many of the same themes I've expressed here and others I have not expressed here, but which exist. They are painful to read, but so many of them echo my situation exactly. The people are rather harsh in some of their judgments, but frankly, I have felt similar things sadly, at times...

Edited October 31, 2011 by mormonmusic

[JudoMinja]

I want to touch specifically on your relationship with your daughter and how to talk about the issues you have with your wife. Your post really touched me, because I could almost see my own father writing something similar, though my mother's issues are different-

My mother is very on top of the housework. So on top of it, in fact, that she struggles to meet any other needs. She has always been a stay at home mother and is very dilligent about meeting her domestic duties. The house is always spotless, laundry always done, dinners always prepared, and the budget always maintained wonderfully... but if anyone approaches her about anything she is not already doing, anything that has not been planned ahead and scheduled into her time, she about loses it. She is a major perfectionist and has a very low sense of self-worth. She feels as though nothing she does is good-enough, and she is not at all good at being flexible.

This caused some problems for me and my siblings growing up. There were many things I would have liked to do (extracurricular activities, sleepovers, etc), but the anxiety it caused me to ask my mother's permission was too high a price to pay to be able to participate in these things. One instance, in particular, revealed to me how my father handled this: I was in drama club, the only extracurricular activity I wanted to participate in badly enough to deal with the stress it caused my mother, and would often stay after school. Once, a friend offered to give me a ride home (normally I would walk home), and I took her up on the offer. When she dropped me off and I started telling my mother about my day and my ride home, she flipped- because she had not approved getting a ride from that friend ahead of time. After she was done venting, my dad sat down to talk with me in my room, and he told me that if I wanted to ride home with my friends to just not tell mom. He said to tell him instead.

As the years have passed and I've grown up, the problems my mom has have become very obvious and apparent to me. She is not going to change. She is an amazing and wonderful person, and I love her, and my father loves her. I could not imagine my parents ever getting a divorce despite their difficulties. There are certain things about my mother that are not healthy and that affected me growing up, but I would not trade her for anyone else. I have come to understand and accept my mother the way she is, and I've learned how to work around her "quirks". We get along great and have a wonderful relationship as adults. I think she could be a much happier and well-rounded person if she would work on her issues, but that doesn't affect my happiness and I do what I can to be a loving help and support to her.

Sometimes, her issues put strain on my father, and I've seen them get into several arguments. However, those arguments have become more and more mild and fewer and far between as time has gone by. They've learned how to cope with each others failings and use each others strengths to make the marriage stronger. I have also had a number of father-daughter moments when these issues with my mother crop up. This past fathers day, for example, I was having a hard time thinking of what to do for my father. I spent a couple weeks thinking and looking for something to get him and couldn't settle on anything. Finally, I just wrote him a very personal letter about what his fathering meant to me, the things he taught me, how he shaped who I am today, an the things I will always remember about him. My mother ended up blowing up on fathers day, because my brothers who still live at home had not done anything for my father and she felt as though our failure to honor our father on fathers day was a reflection on her and her failings. It ended up being a bad day, and I was in the kitchen doing dishes and crying. My father came up behind me, gave me a hug, and offered some comforting words about mom and thanked me for the letter.

You can share your concerns with your daughter. She sees the problems. She will be able to understand. It will not lessen her love for her mother at all. It will only help her better see and learn to cope with her mothers flaws. And as you share that intimate time of trust and confidence with your daughter, your own relationship with her will grow with love and understanding.