Is this forum representative of the what I can expect at church?

[beefche]

Moderator hat on:

Read the rules of this site. If you find a particular post offensive, you are responsible for reporting it. As a moderator I have every right to ask a poster for a particular post that is offensive. If you have issue with ANY post (by a regular member or moderator), then report it. If this post offends you, report it. Any more discussion on the forum concerning how a moderator moderates will be considered a violoation of rule #6 and dealt with.

[Vort]

In answer to your question cwald... Church is NOTHING like lds.net. I got active on this board again a couple of months ago and my idealistic views on church members loving and supporting each other was given a rude awakening. I supposed it was for the best, because now I'm more realisitic. But I have NEVER been attacked in church the way I have been attacked here. I guess because it's pretty hard to stand face to face with me and my service dog and rant about my living situation after I've already told you why it has to be that way.

When you first posted to the board, I remember several people seemed to have a bit of a hard time getting past your living arrangement. Others came to your defense, if you want to characterize it as such. Other than that, I don't recall anyone attacking you at any time on this list. Can you provide some examples?

I got over my inital hurt feelings and realized that if I wanted to participate in this forum I was going to have to change my expectations dirastically. So now, rather than expecting support, I expect a fight.

Perhaps this is the problem. This is not a support board, nor is it a fighting arena. It is a discussion list. Support is often offered, and fighting occasionally occurs. But mostly, what you see is people stating their opinions and discussing their differences.

[sister_in_faith]

Yeah, and then the moderator asks me what was "disrespectful" about that fasting conversation, as if they have no idea how offensive it was, and as if it is just the normal tone around here.

EXACTLY. I don't know what the deal is. I'm sorry. I would like an answer myself! :) But just realize that this is NOT representative of the LDS church, no matter what the little angel people at the top of the page say!

[Vort]

Yeah, and then the moderator asks me what was "disrespectful" about that fasting conversation, as if they have no idea how offensive it was, and as if it is just the normal tone around here.

But you haven't voiced what was "disrespectful" yet! You seem content just to assert that it was "disrespectful", as if everyone else would agree with you if they simply read the thread. Since that is not the case, why not explain what you found "disrespectful", instead of just continuing to make the assertion and then acting confused or hurt when others ask for clarification?

[sister_in_faith]

But you haven't voiced what was "disrespectful" yet! You seem content just to assert that it was "disrespectful", as if everyone else would agree with you if they simply read the thread. Since that is not the case, why not explain what you found "disrespectful", instead of just continuing to make the assertion and then acting confused or hurt when others ask for clarification?

I'm not trying to argue here, but I think this was the point, that you DON'T, or can't, or won't see that it was disrespectful is a problem.

[sister_in_faith]

There is nothing to explain. If you can't see the disrespect by just reading it, then I can't say anything further that would pursuade you, so its a waste of time.

[NeuroTypical]

Why do you treat each other like this? Wow.

Multiple facets to an accurate answer to your question:

1. Tone online often comes across as harsher than intended. Reasons include typing skills, reading skills, lack of nonverbal cues that help communicate intent. Folks tend to get more offended reading stuff than they do talking to people. In other words, a lot of it is due to people seeing harshness when it isn't intended.

2. Additionally, people are more harsh online than in real life.

3. #'s 1 and 2 apply to the human race in general, and Americans in particular. There's nothing you're experiencing here that is unique to mormons.

Is this what I have to look forward to if I go back to the LDS church?

No. Consider my screen name and avatar for a moment. When you see me in church, I'm often giggling with my daughters or sitting quietly with my wife. I occasionally am moved to tears in sacrament meeting. I can think of maybe once or twice in the last two decades that I've actually disagreed or argued with anyone in church.

Let me ask a question, a sincere question. Do you folk who participate on this board, represent the active, orthodox, membership of the LDS church?

No. We represent the membership of the LDS church who goes online and likes to discuss and debate on anonymous forums. We're not all active, and we sure as heck aren't all orthodox.

Does any of this help?

[Vort]

There is nothing to explain. If you can't see the disrespect by just reading it, then I can't say anything further that would pursuade you, so its a waste of time.

Sure you could. You could quote the part you find disrespectful and say, "This part right here is disrespectful." Then we could discuss it and figure out if anyone else agrees with you, or if perhaps you are misinterpreting it.

[annewandering]

Actually after reading a recent post of Vorts I see where he is coming from now. For people who are trying to correct an obedience problem it is maybe better to just obey rather than look at any problems that COULD be used as an excuse to not do that particular thing. I dont think he is being disrespectful so much as making his boundaries for himself clear.

For those of us who might be doing the same thing it makes sense.

Perhaps not assuming that people are looking for excuses to disobey might be a useful thing to consider, however. Now Sister in Faith was looking for a way to obey not the other way around. It is so easy and actually normal to interpret things from our own prospective and not that of the other person but that leads to a lot of misunderstandings and hurt feelings..

[sister_in_faith]

When I am on here, I try to be as supportive to others as possible. I try not to be critical, and the only times that I can think of that I was REALLY forceful with advice was when suicide or mental illness was on the discussion table. I am trying to stick up for myself, more than I do in real life. I realize that perspective really does have a role in things. If in the past, or in the future, I misinterpret something (which is bound to happen) I appologize in advance (actually I guess that won't work for things that have already happened, hum). Anyway, I guess I really do wear my heart on my sleeve, and I'm going to get hurt more easily because of that. Right now I have to admit I dread logging on here, and in the last hour or two I've been thinking maybe I shouldn't even be participating at all. That sucks because I enjoy the 'good' parts of it so much. But that is all a personal decision I'll have to make, and perhaps I shouldn't even bring it up. Ugh. Sorry guys, I'm just kind of in a funk right now.

[john doe]

In answer to your question cwald... Church is NOTHING like lds.net. I got active on this board again a couple of months ago and my idealistic views on church members loving and supporting each other was given a rude awakening. I supposed it was for the best, because now I'm more realisitic. But I have NEVER been attacked in church the way I have been attacked here. I guess because it's pretty hard to stand face to face with me and my service dog and rant about my living situation after I've already told you why it has to be that way.

I doubt that while at a class at church, if I asked the question about fasting, someone would pipe up and say, you know it probably won't kill you, or words to that effect, and if they did, then saw tears streaming down my face while I pull my service dog a little closer for comfort, when I explain how that hurts my feelings because I am struggling so hard to just survive in this life, I can't imagine any brother (at least at MY ward) doing anything but giving me a hug and appologizing for the misunderstanding. I don't know why people don't do that here. <shrug> but that's on them.

My guess is that the anonymous nature of the board makes this social climate possible. I seriously doubt (although I could be wrong) that even the most hardened of posters on here would say things that they say on here to people in their ward.

You and I are not alone in thinking that at times we log onto this site and feel like we have entered the twilight zone. It baffles me at times.

Thank you for bringing this up, because I have been trying to figure this out myself for several weeks.

I got over my inital hurt feelings and realized that if I wanted to participate in this forum I was going to have to change my expectations dirastically. So now, rather than expecting support, I expect a fight. If I'm not emotionally up to it, I don't log on. I think it is a shame to waste such a wonderful opportunity to HAVE a gentle, loving, supportive forum for LDS users. I wish that it could evolve to that.

But, no, this is NOTHING like church. At least MY ward. I hope you come to church with us! I'll give you a hug! :)

I submit that most likely you misread both the poster and the words that poster wrote, and chose to take offense based on preconceived notions you held toward that person previously. The parts that I read were misconstructions and mischaracterizations of what was actually written by that poster.

And this leads to what I see is a problem. New people come here and start making statements about things in the Church that are just not seen in the everyday LDS scene. You for example, came back after 3 years on hiatus and stated that you are living with a man you are not married to, but you consider him to be your husband and then state that you attend the temple often. And then you tell us that you have been told you can be sealed to this guy who won't marry you after he dies. You have to admit that this is a highly unusual situation that you are in, and that it does not exist in normal LDS culture. You were rightfully questioned about it, since most here had never heard of such a thing being allowed. You see, we get lots of trolls who come here making outlandish statements about the Church, and as a new person whom none of us had interacted with, we had no idea if you were serious or trying to play us.

I submit that you chose to take offense to the questioning of your veracity instead of patiently explaining your situation in a rational way. You chose to be offended instead of realizing that your situation is highly unusual and mostly unheard of. And I also submit that to this day you choose to be offended by those who questioned your veracity at that time. And you choose to be judgemental of those whom you claim are rigidly judgemental.

[annewandering]

Sister in Faith, I would be very sad if you left. Many days you have brightened my day and I always look forward to hearing from you. That is a selfish point of view but true.

I know I annoy people, both here and in real life. I always figured I was destined to be the thorn in everyone's side. Still sometimes thorns are needed. After all roses have them and they are beautiful. :)

I was also confused when you came on here about the bf thing. Still dont understand it completely but after reading your posts I have no doubt that it is a thing you have sorted out with the bishop so I dont care anymore about it.

I used to come here as well and quit. I walked away ever time furious. Lots more politics were discussed then. I remember being told something to the effect that I would not be missed if I went away. Mostly I tend to be angry instead of hurt so I just walked away deciding there were a bunch of nuts here. This time around I have really enjoyed the people here and even starting to understand the ones that are more critical. Not that I agree with all of you all the time.

It seems a very sad thing to lose anyone from the site. Other than trolls and even some of them can be talked to eventually.

Edited November 10, 2011 by annewandering

[Soulsearcher]

I don't think this site is representative of what you can expect at church, but i do think it's what you can expect from the members of which ever ward you go to. Every active member of this site belongs to a ward or branch somewhere. The thoughts and opinions they express here are either the thoughts they express at church or the thoughts that form and don't express. It can influence their attitudes and actions and probably will in some way. That being said to your face and in most of your dealings with them you'll probably find a slightly or much softer side being the anonymity is lacking and they would have to see the aftermath of their actions or comments. The internet doesn't change people it just gives them an outlet for what's always been there and lets them unleash it.

[sister_in_faith]

I submit that most likely you misread both the poster and the words that poster wrote, and chose to take offense based on preconceived notions you held toward that person previously. The parts that I read were misconstructions and mischaracterizations of what was actually written by that poster.

And this leads to what I see is a problem. New people come here and start making statements about things in the Church that are just not seen in the everyday LDS scene. You for example, came back after 3 years on hiatus and stated that you are living with a man you are not married to, but you consider him to be your husband and then state that you attend the temple often. And then you tell us that you have been told you can be sealed to this guy who won't marry you after he dies. You have to admit that this is a highly unusual situation that you are in, and that it does not exist in normal LDS culture. You were rightfully questioned about it, since most here had never heard of such a thing being allowed. You see, we get lots of trolls who come here making outlandish statements about the Church, and as a new person whom none of us had interacted with, we had no idea if you were serious or trying to play us.

I submit that you chose to take offense to the questioning of your veracity instead of patiently explaining your situation in a rational way. You chose to be offended instead of realizing that your situation is highly unusual and mostly unheard of. And I also submit that to this day you choose to be offended by those who questioned your veracity at that time. And you choose to be judgemental of those whom you claim are rigidly judgemental.

REALLY john doe?

I agree, my situation is unnusual. That is why I tried to explain it, right off the bat so that there wouldn't be a lot of confusion later on down the road. I explained, and explained and explained. I finally did something that made me really uncomfortable, and even explained about my mental illness issues, and my suicide attempts, and how he is able to keep me safe, and has to adminster medication and keep it all locked up so that I don't have access to it. I explained that all of my priesthood leaders knew about it, and had approved the living situation.

Even AFTER all of this, I was acused by someone of lying to my priesthood leaders just to get a temple recommend. Which offended me. I take my covenants VERY seriously. I take my temple recommend interviews VERY seriously. I take my honor as an honest woman of faith VERY seriously. And you are upset that I am CHOOSING to be offended? Wouldn't you be offended if someone said that to you?

I am VERY aware that my situation is unnusual. I am so aware of it that I even went to my bishop after that discussion and told him about it. I asked him if my being a member of the church in my situation 'hurt' the church. I told him I didn't want people to see my situation and then question the church because of it. I told him that I loved the church enough that I would be willing to hand him my temple recommend (had it in my hand to give to him) and that I would 'walk away', so that the church could have an unblemished reputation, and people like you guys wouldn't have to go thru the confusion that you have gone thru. I would just worship on my own. Read on my own. Watch BYUTV online. I am very willing to make that sacrifice for the church I love so much.

I still think it is amazing that my situation threw you guys for such a loop. I mean, not everyone's case is the same. There are many situations that the church has to handle on an individual basis. I understand being confused at first, but after an explanation, it could have been dropped. I could have been given the benefit of the doubt.

I have felt that after that there are a core group of people that don't like me, which is fine. I guess not EVERYONE has to love me. They should. but they don't. hee hee hee...

to be honest, this whole topic really brings those hurt feelings back up to the surface, and I don't want to talk about it anymore. This isn't my thread. I didn't start it. If I was the only one who was thinking these things I would just keep my mouth shut, but obviously it isn't just me.

[Vort]

REALLY john doe?

I agree, my situation is unnusual. That is why I tried to explain it, right off the bat so that there wouldn't be a lot of confusion later on down the road. I explained, and explained and explained. I finally did something that made me really uncomfortable, and even explained about my mental illness issues, and my suicide attempts, and how he is able to keep me safe, and has to adminster medication and keep it all locked up so that I don't have access to it. I explained that all of my priesthood leaders knew about it, and had approved the living situation.

Even AFTER all of this, I was acused by someone of lying to my priesthood leaders just to get a temple recommend. Which offended me.

Just out of curiosity: Without looking back at that conversation, tell me what you think my (Vort's) part in that exchange was and how I reacted to what you wrote.

I have felt that after that there are a core group of people that don't like me, which is fine. I guess not EVERYONE has to love me. They should. but they don't. hee hee hee...

Again, just out of curiosity: Do you think me part of that "core group of people"?

For the record, I think you're being paranoid. I doubt there is any "core group" here who dislikes you. I would be surprised if there is even one person on this list who actually dislikes you, much less a "core group".

[Madriglace]

People are people ... none of us are perfect ... the best of us see that and are working like crazy to get closer to perfect while admitting that we will never make it here on this earth. I admit that the contention that some times crops up bothers me ... there is no place in the Gospel of Christ for contention (check the footnotes for the replacement word in the scriptures).

May I make 2 observations and then I will get back to work .... First you get out of the church what you put in to it ... if you look for bad that is what you will find, but if you go in with a good attitude and proceed on the assumption that these are great people that is what you will find. Second ... you cannot be offended unless you allow it ... too many people in the church look for something to give them an excuse to leave ... and they are hurting who???? Themselves ... because as someone said earlier the person who offended you may have no clue that what was said or done was offensive to you. I know that they didn't get up today thinking ... OK let's see, what can I do to offend .....

We are here to serve our brothers and sisters ... if you choose to join us and come in with that attitude we all gain and grow from your contribution ... if you choose to be offended and leave ... you loose. Together we are strong ... alone we are just that ... alone.

[LittleWyvern]

In an attempt to get back on topic, here's what I thought of as the quickest way to find out just how different church and lds.net are:

1. Go to Church. Just for Sacrament Meeting is all it takes for this method.

2. Find the missionaries. They're easy to spot.

3. Give the missionaries a high five or something, and tell them that you're thinking about coming back to church and you want them to persuade you.

4. Enjoy the missionaries treating you like a king for the rest of church.

This effect amplifies if you're in an area where the missionaries spend most of their time tracting.

Edited November 10, 2011 by LittleWyvern

[sister_in_faith]

Just out of curiosity: Without looking back at that conversation, tell me what you think my (Vort's) part in that exchange was and how I reacted to what you wrote.

Again, just out of curiosity: Do you think me part of that "core group of people"?

For the record, I think you're being paranoid. I doubt there is any "core group" here who dislikes you. I would be surprised if there is even one person on this list who actually dislikes you, much less a "core group".

Who is being paranoid now? I never said that you even had a part in the discussion about my boyfriend. I don't remember if you were or not.

And maybe I'm wrong about people not liking me. I'm happy to admit my faults, and if I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

And no, I didn't think you were a part of the core group of people. I think you are just someone who doesn't like to be wrong, and will fight to the bitter end to be right. I don't think that has anything to do with me.

[annewandering]

Sister I am going to apologize for my first thoughts. I think that now your situation, if anything, points out that the church is not rigid. Thats a good thing.

This board has a lot to recommend it. Most of the people are good people. Remember the thread about Narcissistic Behavior Disorder? That has a been a big help to me and I think to you. Sometimes we can help people out in small ways but sometimes in big ones. :)

I got some good ideas from the fasting thread that I am going to make use of on fast sundays now.

By the way I think I am right always. In fact I would be really retarded to come up with an idea and defend it if I thought it was wrong. :) the thing that saves me is that it is good to be open to a different idea. Edit: The discussion of current political candidates is against board rules.

Vort, you might just say sorry and be done with it. :) Sister, you might just say sorry and be done with it. No qualifiers on either side. Wow that is something that is nearly impossible for me to do.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Dravin

[sister_in_faith]

Anne, don't appologize!!! :) You have been nothing but a friend to me...

[annewandering]

Anne, don't appologize!!! :) You have been nothing but a friend to me...

Maybe that is the point. :)

[john doe]

Even AFTER all of this, I was acused by someone of lying to my priesthood leaders just to get a temple recommend.

I didn't look just now, but I don't remember anyone accusing you of lying to your priesthood leaders. Your claimed situation was highly unusual and it was asked what they thought of it. At least that is my recollection of the conversation.

I still think it is amazing that my situation threw you guys for such a loop. I mean, not everyone's case is the same. There are many situations that the church has to handle on an individual basis. I understand being confused at first, but after an explanation, it could have been dropped. I could have been given the benefit of the doubt.

Again, trolls come here quite often claiming all kinds of outlandish things. Rarely do their assertions turn out to be true. There was no reference point with you, so questions were asked. You took offense to those questions.

I have felt that after that there are a core group of people that don't like me, which is fine. I guess not EVERYONE has to love me. They should. but they don't. hee hee hee...

I don't believe there is a core group that doesn't like you. I think there are some who are biased based on they way you have responded to them and others. I suspect you probably think that I have some sort of agenda against you. That is absolutely not true, but I certainly get that vibe from you.

[HEthePrimate]

cwald, I know what you mean. People can be pretty argumentative, disrespectful, and even vicious at times. On the Internet, under cover of anonymity, people often "let their hair down," so to speak, and spit out every thought that comes into their head that they wouldn't normally say to someone's face. Basically, they (actually 'we'--I do this, too) drop their filter. In a way this is good, so you can know what people are really thinking. In a way, though, it's scary to know that people actually think such things! But sometimes the first thing that comes into your head is not what you really think, if you give yourself enough time to ponder it and revise as necessary. So maybe it's a good thing for us to stop for a minute or two and think things through before we post, and maybe we can avoid some misunderstandings and hurt feelings.

At church, on the other hand, people are going to be "on their best behavior," and I expect that your experience there would be rather different than what you see here.

Shalom, my friend!

Edited November 10, 2011 by HEthePrimate

[Dravin]

I didn't look just now, but I don't remember anyone accusing you of lying to your priesthood leaders. Your claimed situation was highly unusual and it was asked what they thought of it. At least that is my recollection of the conversation.

There was one poster who accused her of fudging the truth, as you say the rest where trying to wrap their head a round the situation for the most part.

[annewandering]

I admit I was suspicious and puzzled. Not anymore. Sister is obviously what she says she is and a very nice person. I like her and want to see her stay here.