Word Of Wisdom

[Princess3dward]

Isn't just squished grapes grape juice?

I know nothing about wine.. so... ya.

[Snow]

as for the wine, it is a commandment. i have seen loved ones die from the effects of alcholism. no room for moderation in my book, follow the commandments.

I have to differ with this comment. It is not a commandment but revelation without constraint. D&C 89:2

Don't want to seem nicky picky, but too many things that have been said by the General Authorities have been taken out of their original context and put into commandment form.

"In 1851, President Brigham Young proposed to the general conference of the Church that all Saints formally covenant to keep the Word of Wisdom. This proposal was unanimously upheld by the membership of the Church. Since that day, the revelation has been a binding commandment on all Church members" (E.T. Benson, Ensign, May 1983).

Maybe you know the mind of God with a bit more clarity than his prophets. How fortunate for us all.

Isn't just squished grapes grape juice?

I know nothing about wine.. so... ya.

It's fermented squisheds grape juice. Sugars and other things are added to alter taste and the fermentation process.

[Maureen]

Where are church member's manners and etiquette these days?

...I will answer to Heavenly Father without your help in the judgment zone and you don't have any right to tell another member of the Church what they should and should not be doing. We ALL have our imperfections, so let us work on our misgivings in our time....

...You have no right to say WHO Heavenly Father is going to discipline and punish. That is not for you to decide....

Okay, you're confusing me Sabran. Wasn't the whole point of your "Cheesed Off" thread, to make it known what bothered you about other members actions or even non-actions. Were you not in the least judging them, because their imperfections bothered you a little.

Don't get me wrong, I understand about judging other people, especially other parents; I always compare how other parents teach their children. I'm just confused about you're are not wanting to be judged yourself. Everybody does it. The only exception IMO, is when others seem to be a bit self-righteous in their judgements of others and are totally blind to their own imperfections.

M.

[Yokomsa]

Shoot, I know members that do have a glass of wine with their dinner. That doesn't mean they are bad church members, it just means they simply have a glass of wine with dinner. And when I speak of wine... it is strictly fermented grapes or other fruits. No additives.

Just my 2 pence

Really - no other additives?

Do these wine drinking acquaintances of yours make their own wine or do they remove the sugars, tanins, acids and minerals that are added into purchased wines?

Most of the wines they drink are made from scratch, so there are no modern day processes at work for the wines. I am not aware that wines have tanins in them. If you have a source of that, I would like to see it. (Not being snotty, but interested from a researching point of view) The grapes that are used in these wines are already sweetened, but there is honey added to some of them. So again nothing processed or refined.

[Yokomsa]

...I will answer to Heavenly Father without your help in the judgment zone and you don't have any right to tell another member of the Church what they should and should not be doing. We ALL have our imperfections, so let us work on our misgivings in our time....

...You have no right to say WHO Heavenly Father is going to discipline and punish. That is not for you to decide....

Okay, you're confusing me Sabran. Wasn't the whole point of your "Cheesed Off" thread, to make it known what bothered you about other members actions or even non-actions. Were you not in the least judging them, because their imperfections bothered you a little.

Don't get me wrong, I understand about judging other people, especially other parents; I always compare how other parents teach their children. I'm just confused about you're are not wanting to be judged yourself. Everybody does it. The only exception IMO, is when others seem to be a bit self-righteous in their judgements of others and are totally blind to their own imperfections.

M.

No, they were not judgements, they were observations. To me, a judgement is calling someone on the carpet about their actions, words, or deeds, and never said anyone is specific. I merely stated an observation that was never acted upon. Never said a word to those folks, just kept it to myself until now on this board. And to this day, I have never made a comment to those folks about their kids. What has come out of that discussion is that a few people have emailed me and have given me suggestions on the way to handle those kinds of situations when the arise!

That was a personal attack on me make public and to my "e-face" for a lack of better terminology. I hope that has stopped the confusion for ya!

[Snow]

No, they were not judgements, they were observations.

No. They were judgements. You observed and then attached judgements to your observations. Call it what it is.

To me, a judgement is calling someone on the carpet about their actions, words, or deeds, and never said anyone is specific.

That's what you did. That you neglected to give names, ss #'s, and dates of births is irrelevant.

[Snow]

Most of the wines they drink are made from scratch, so there are no modern day processes at work for the wines. I am not aware that wines have tanins in them. If you have a source of that, I would like to see it. (Not being snotty, but interested from a researching point of view) The grapes that are used in these wines are already sweetened, but there is honey added to some of them. So again nothing processed or refined.

Okay. I just didn't understand the point you were making as I have never met a Mormon who makes his own wine. I would be surprized if someone who had, knew more than one.

Grapes seeds have tanins and acids and minerals that are part of wine making. Grape skins catch airborne yeasts that are necessary for fermentation. Usually or often sugars and yeasts are added in to the process.

[Guest MrsS]

Most of the wines they drink are made from scratch, so there are no modern day processes at work for the wines. I am not aware that wines have tanins in them. If you have a source of that, I would like to see it. (Not being snotty, but interested from a researching point of view) The grapes that are used in these wines are already sweetened, but there is honey added to some of them. So again nothing processed or refined.

So these wines that are made from scratch - they have no alcohol in them? The cordials you make have no alcohol in them? They are not alcoholic in any way shape or form?

***Not sarcastic here, just curious***

[Palerider]

If you make the wine like whats talked about in the scriptures.....I always thought it was true wine....difference being todays wine is fermented(sp) and the other was pure wine of the vine....

[Snow]

If you make the wine like whats talked about in the scriptures.....I always thought it was true wine....difference being todays wine is fermented(sp) and the other was pure wine of the vine....

The wine in the scripture was wine (fermented and alcoholic) not grape juice,

[Yokomsa]

<div class='quotemain'>

Most of the wines they drink are made from scratch, so there are no modern day processes at work for the wines. I am not aware that wines have tanins in them. If you have a source of that, I would like to see it. (Not being snotty, but interested from a researching point of view) The grapes that are used in these wines are already sweetened, but there is honey added to some of them. So again nothing processed or refined.

So these wines that are made from scratch - they have no alcohol in them? The cordials you make have no alcohol in them? They are not alcoholic in any way shape or form?

***Not sarcastic here, just curious***

I was merely answering a query about the wines that were consumed by friends. Nothing more... nothing less.

And yes, when I do make the cordials I use Vodka.

And no I do not consume any form of alcohol not because of the Word of Wisdom, but because there is practically a straight pipe to my liver and I have a greater chance of dying from alcohol poisoning than most people. To me, living is a greater principle than the Word of Wisdom in this case.

[Dr T]

There is an example Eph 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;" that indicates that wine was intoxicating.

Dr. T

[Snow]

There is an example Eph 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;" that indicates that wine was intoxicating.

Dr. T

Another indication is that the wine was called "wine," not fruit juice.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

When the WoW was first received, the emphasis by Church leaders was on moderation, not abstaining.

For those of us living today, the WoW is a commandment and those who disobey it are barred from entering the temple. That should give a clue as to whether it's just a suggestion or a law of God.

It doesn't matter to me what Jesus did in the New Testament as regards wine. He could've drunk wine and yes, even created it out of water! What's important is that he's told me he doesn't want me to do it now. Continuing revelation...y'know, the same principle which undergirds the Church's extension of the priesthood to all worthy male members? To say that originally the WoW wasn't a commandment and so today it isn't, is to say that no black man should hold the priesthood since originally it was forbidden.

Why not gulp down the gospel as greedily as all-natural-homemade-tanin-free-non-alcoholic-fermented-grape-juice? Oh, it's because we haven't decided to accept every commandment from God...even the inconvenient and tanin-prejudiced ones.

No one here is condemning someone to Hell because they are working on a personal weakness that involves drinking alcohol. People are raising their hackles because someone's teaching that God hasn't made the WoW a gospel commandment in our day.

We're not judging actions. We're judging doctrines...the true, the false and the ugly.

[Gwen]

I have to agree with AK.

However, I am confused about a hair that is being split. I only feel that I must say something because there are those on here that admitt that they don't know and I want them to understand. Let me first say that if alcohol is your demon then that is fine, we all have them. But don't try to come on here and rationalize behavior and confuse the more inocent who want to follow the prophet. Do it or don't, but don't try to convince everyone else that it is ok.

Anyway, the hair I'm having a hard time with is all the seperation between alcoholic vs fermented. Fermentation is the process for making something alcoholic. true the longer it sits the "more" alcoholic it is, but ANY fermentation contains some % of alcohol. you take fruit, anything else you want, and time it will ferment and become alcohol. it dosen't have to just be juice, if you take a jar of jam or jelly and open it, let it sit long enough and it will ferment and become alcoholic jelly. I don't understand why we are splitting hairs here, call it what it is. if it hasn't fermented then it hasn't become alcoholic, it isn't wine, but fruit juice (maybe old fruit juice, not fermented). if it ferments at all then it is alcoholic and it is wine (maybe not strong wine, but wine).

One other thing. all the medical releases that say one glass of wine a day is healthy. have you ever read the fine print? one glass of grape juice will have the same medical benifit, without the destroying addictive properties of the alcohol in the wine. the problem isn't the additives, it's the fermentation/alcohol. those medical reports IN MY OPINION are deceptive and thus the tools of the advisary to confuse and destroy.

ok, i'll get off my soapbox for now. :)

[shanstress70]

Okay, you're confusing me Sabran. Wasn't the whole point of your "Cheesed Off" thread, to make it known what bothered you about other members actions or even non-actions. Were you not in the least judging them, because their imperfections bothered you a little.

Hey, what happened to the 'Cheesed off' thread? I came back from being out of town and it's just gone!

[babygirl]

i have a question....

If God came up to you face to face and said wine probably isnt a good idea, or maybe caffien can be to addicting i dont think we should drink it... would u be doing all this questioning or even thought it was just a sugestion would u you stop doing it...

he didnt say DONT do it, he sugested it...to me even a sugestion from God would make me want to do what he sugested... is that not what the prophets say the words God tells them to say, to help us?

[Princess3dward]

Also, I think it is an "all your heart" commendment, that if you really love him you will do it, and if you do, all the more blessings and testimony to ya!!!

[prisonchaplain]

It doesn't matter to me what Jesus did in the New Testament as regards wine. He could've drunk wine and yes, even created it out of water! What's important is that he's told me he doesn't want me to do it now. Continuing revelation...y'know, the same principle which undergirds the Church's extension of the priesthood to all worthy male members? To say that originally the WoW wasn't a commandment and so today it isn't, is to say that no black man should hold the priesthood since originally it was forbidden.

We're not judging actions. We're judging doctrines...the true, the false and the ugly.

Just a thought. There are some who try to argue that the Old Testament food laws (kosher) were intended to keep God's people healthy. That God made the laws purely for the benefit of his people. Likewise, I sometimes see LDS suggest that the WoW was given for our health and well-being.

Now, Orthodox rabbis say No! Kosher rules are commands by God. We obey them simply because God said so.

So, if the WoW is a 'suggestion,' is it divine health advice. On the other hand, if it's a command, why would any believer contemplate anything other than total obedience?

[Snow]

he didnt say DONT do it, he sugested it...to me even a sugestion from God would make me want to do what he sugested... is that not what the prophets say the words God tells them to say, to help us?

Yes, but he suggested the Saints go to Kirkland, and Jackson County and Nauvoo; and look how that turned out.

Just a thought. There are some who try to argue that the Old Testament food laws (kosher) were intended to keep God's people healthy. That God made the laws purely for the benefit of his people. Likewise, I sometimes see LDS suggest that the WoW was given for our health and well-being.

Now, Orthodox rabbis say No! Kosher rules are commands by God. We obey them simply because God said so.

So, if the WoW is a 'suggestion,' is it divine health advice. On the other hand, if it's a command, why would any believer contemplate anything other than total obedience?

Yeah - maybe.

On the other hand... if you want to control someone, control his eating habits and sexual behavior and it's all downhill from there.

Hey, what happened to the 'Cheesed off' thread? I came back from being out of town and it's just gone!

Apparently the OP couldn't take the heat his attitude generated and asked the thread to be removed.

[babygirl]

<div class='quotemain'>

he didnt say DONT do it, he sugested it...to me even a sugestion from God would make me want to do what he sugested... is that not what the prophets say the words God tells them to say, to help us?

Yes, but he suggested the Saints go to Kirkland, and Jackson County and Nauvoo; and look how that turned out.

he didnt suggest those things he comanded them to go to those places, and even so they will be blessed in heaven for obeying that