Bringing a question up out of obscurity (hijacked from another thread)

[carlimac]

I'm hijacking this idea from another thread. Annewandering posted this idea and I wanted to explore it further but had to bring it up out of the depths of another thread so more would see it and hopefully comment. By the way she was OK with me quoting her on a new thread.

Anne: " Have you heard the part of people being excommunicated so they dont HAVE to live up to covenants they do not feel they can or want to keep? Not being a member of the church can be a weight off people who do not want to live the standards of the church.

It reminds me of the three kingdoms of glory. Each kingdom is for the people who are happy and comfortable there. Mortal life is like that too. God isnt going to give you more than you can deal with including covenants that are not in your realm of desire to do."

My response:" Well, hmph! OK... I guess. Interesting approach. Sounds a little like a cop-out to me. But I can see your point. (on the other hand) I don't necessarily see myself as celestial material but I'm not going to just quit trying. Mediocrity is always easier ...but worth it in the end? "

Anne:"Not for me. Someone explained it to me that way once and it stuck in my mind. It didnt seem a cop out to me at all. At some points in peoples lives it just to much. I know someone who was baptized and in less than a year he just quit. He said it was too hard for him and he was not ready to live the commandments. It was just not in him.

People have to take their own roads and some roads are not the ones we would have chosen for them, with no rocks or sandy spots to bog them down but its THEIR road not ours. Mine has enough rocks and sandy spots in it for me to struggle through and I need the gospel to help me navigate them but I am not them and they are not me. "

Anyone care to join this discussion?

Edited January 24, 2012 by carlimac

[Dravin]

If we're talking emotionally or psychologically I can most certainly see how being excommunicated can be a load off people. It's a final severing of a commitment and I could see how until that happens the commitment might drag on you.

[Blackmarch]

I'm hijacking this idea from another thread. Annewandering posted this idea and I wanted to explore it further but had to bring it up out of the depths of a gay marriage thread so more would see it and hopefully comment. By the way she was OK with me quoting her on a new thread.

Anne: " Have you heard the part of people being excommunicated so they dont HAVE to live up to covenants they do not feel they can or want to keep? Not being a member of the church can be a weight off people who do not want to live the standards of the church.

It reminds me of the three kingdoms of glory. Each kingdom is for the people who are happy and comfortable there. Mortal life is like that too. God isnt going to give you more than you can deal with including covenants that are not in your realm of desire to do."

My response:" Well, hmph! OK... I guess. Interesting approach. Sounds a little like a cop-out to me. But I can see your point. (on the other hand) I don't necessarily see myself as celestial material but I'm not going to just quit trying. Mediocrity is always easier ...but worth it in the end? "

Anne:"Not for me. Someone explained it to me that way once and it stuck in my mind. It didnt seem a cop out to me at all. At some points in peoples lives it just to much. I know someone who was baptized and in less than a year he just quit. He said it was too hard for him and he was not ready to live the commandments. It was just not in him.

People have to take their own roads and some roads are not the ones we would have chosen for them, with no rocks or sandy spots to bog them down but its THEIR road not ours. Mine has enough rocks and sandy spots in it for me to struggle through and I need the gospel to help me navigate them but I am not them and they are not me. "

Anyone care to join this discussion?

as i see it its more like preventing them from inflicting more greater harm on themselves spiritually, than anything else.

[carlimac]

The problem I see with this concept is that it somehow infers that the Gospel of Jesus Christ isn't for everybody. Only for the select few (relatively) who can "handle it". Didn't Jesus minister to people from all walks of life, especially the poor in heart and spirit? I can see getting excommunicated for sins of commission and for loss of belief but not simply because it's "too hard". I think there is a place in the Church for everybody, even the sinners and the lazy. Loss of privileges? Yes for the sinners. (I'm talking really big sins of course.) But I think it's just too bad that folks can't come to church only to worship and be fed spiritually if that's all they are capable of.

We need to widen our spectrum of acceptance and lower our expectations if people are so intimdated that they take such a deliberate action of removing their names from Church records. I don't think this is what the Lord had in mind for his Church... making it "too hard".

Edited January 24, 2012 by carlimac

[Dravin]

I can see getting excommunicated for sins of commission and for loss of belief but not simply because it's "too hard".

Keep in mind that not all excommunication happens because of Church disciplinary councils. While one isn't excommunicated simply because they want to go inactive one can essentially excommunicate themselves by having their name removed for any reason. That said I doubt many people are removing their names because of a thought processes like:

"This is too hard. I still believe it and I know I should live it, but I'm just going to excuse myself from the covenants I've made by removing my name from the records of the Church."

But I could be wrong, I'm not privy to all that many people's thoughts.

[JudoMinja]

The problem I see with this concept is that it somehow infers that the Gospel of Jesus Christ isn't for everybody.... I don't think this is what the Lord had in mind for his Church. Making it "too hard".

But it IS meant to be hard-

"Enter ye in at the strait gate; for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, which leadeth to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat;

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (3 Nephi 14: 13-14)

While not scripture, it also makes me think of this quote "Christ never said it would be easy. He only said it would be worth it." (can't remember the source...)

The church puts a lot of expectations on people, and that is okay, because it is preparing us for responsibilities to come in the heavens. The gospel of Christ IS for everyone, but not everyone can handle all the responsibility that comes with full-blown temple-worthy sealed membership. That is part of what we are finding out in this life- whether or not we can "handle it".

I am not yet endowed and I have often wondered myself if I think I can handle all the responsibility that covenant will entail. I sometimes think I might be happier in the telestial kingdom than I would be in the celestial, not because I think living a celestial life would necessarily be too hard for me, but because I just wouldn't want all that responsibility.

Of course, that doesn't mean I'm going to quit or give up. I believe in striving to be the best I can possibly be, giving it my all, and aiming high. If I give up now, then I've lost my opportunity for the celestial glory if I decide later, "Hmm.. maybe this IS something I wanted afterall..". But if I aim high, qualify for the celestial glory and THEN decide, "Nah, I'd rather go here" I'm sure God won't hold it against me for doing that.

I've seen/heard many questions lately pertaining to the requirements and expectations for the different kingdoms of heaven, and I've been reading and re-reading D&C 76. I think if you study this particular section carefully, you will see that the the gospel of Jesus Christ is for everyone- his resurrection and atonement are what makes it possible for us to enter heaven in ANY degree. But only those who receive the "fulness of the Father" will enter the celestial glory, and this is the narrow gate which is so hard and difficult that "few" will enter. This is what the covenants we make as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints prepares us for.

[carlimac]

as i see it its more like preventing them from inflicting more greater harm on themselves spiritually, than anything else.

How does the Church inflict spiritual "harm"? Or are you saying people self inflict spiritual harm by being members of the Church? Either of those ideas seem backwards to me.

[JudoMinja]

How does the Church inflict spiritual "harm"? Or are you saying people self inflict spiritual harm by being members of the Church? Either of those ideas seem backwards to me.

You are only held to keeping a covenant if you first make the covenant. As members of the church, we are expected to hold ourselves to a higher standard than the rest of the world. If someone makes covenants in the temple but cannot keep them for whatever reason, say they are addicted to alcohol for example, excommunication keeps them from inflicting spiritual harm on themselves because they are no longer held to the covenants they made. Now, while alcoholism may have a serious detrimental effect on their health, it does them no harm spiritually should they decide to continue drinking.

That is the whole concept behind excommunication being a help in the repentance process. Being excommunicated removes your covenanted responsibilities while you work through your repentance process. Once you've reached a point where you are capable of keeping the covenants again, you can get re-baptised.

[Dravin]

How does the Church inflict spiritual "harm"? Or are you saying people self inflict spiritual harm by being members of the Church? Either of those ideas seem backwards to me.

Her comment is stemming from the idea that being released from the covenants via excommunication lessons the accountability for violating those covenants. I'm not entirely sure I subscribe to that thinking, but it is where she is coming from.

Personally my problem with a lot of the line of thinking (and I'm willing to be corrected) that excommunication lessons accountability (in a general sense, obviously non-members aren't held accountable for home teaching or paying tithing) is when people extend it to a more general sense and apply it to knowledge and understanding. We are judged by the amount of light and knowledge we've received, not the amount of light and knowledge we keep after receiving it. Ultimately how much light and knowledge an individual has received is God's call not mine but the line of thinking seems to be leading to almost a thought that one can yell "Take backs!" and reset their light and knowledge 'meter'.

Also if one reads the Oath and Covenant of the priesthood a man stands condemned not only if he rejects it but also if he never seeks it. That leaves a man who knows the law (a member or a former member) in a precarious situation. They can't say, "I'm no longer a member and thus not part of the covenant." because they'll be condemned even so for failing to obtain it.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Dravin

[annewandering]

How does the Church inflict spiritual "harm"? Or are you saying people self inflict spiritual harm by being members of the Church? Either of those ideas seem backwards to me.

The church doesnt inflict spiritual harm. Would it be preferable to have people who are not going to keep the covenants make them with no intention of keeping them? Is making covenants with out planning on keeping them spiritually harmful?

Excommunication is not punishment. It never was. It is done so that those people unwilling to keep critical covenants do not continue living a lie to God. There is the hope that they might someday be ready to keep those covenants and rejoin.

A person who is excommunicated has to still repent. Otherwise the knowledge he has will be held against him.

Excommunication is hardly a 'get out of jail free' card but it does absolve covenants therefore responsibility to keeping those covenants.

Edited January 24, 2012 by annewandering

[Magen_Avot]

It does seem counter productive to leave the church to get out from under the yoke of the Lord or for any other reason, but there are so many reasons for inactivity and name removal and sometimes members bear at least some burdon for those results. In a case of suicide, we can hardly say what the eternal consequences are, only the Lord can. It may not make sence to some of us, yet we can correctly teach that suicide is not the answer, show compassion and continue to endure to the end ourselves while helping others to do the same. This may also be true for the question of this thread. Perhaps we can ask ourselves what we can do before things like this happen or after. Just a thought

Edited January 24, 2012 by Magen_Avot

[Soulsearcher]

I haven't been excommunicated, probably would be though, and i haven't had my name removed, it's just not that important to me. I personally don't believe it makes a difference to me because i don't hold any belief in the covenants so in the end for me not of the processes matter. I walked away and that's all i needed to do for me, don't really care if it's official to the organization because it's offical to me. Again just my personal view and belief.

[Colirio]

Everything the Lord does, it is because of LOVE.

Whether it is condemning and rebuking, encouraging and healing, it is all done out of His great love for us.

If this is true, then would excommunication be done out of love? If so, how would one explain excommunication as "loving?"

I would say that removing the further condemnation would be a good start to understanding how this would be so.

"Christ never said it would be easy. He only said it would be worth it."

Although I hear this statement a lot, and I know people have taken courage from it to continue onward during difficult times in their lives, I find it to be somewhat false in its precepts.

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The Savior DID say that His yoke is easy.

I know for myself, I often place undo burdens upon myself concerning things of a spiritual nature. I HAVE to read X amount of chapters in the Book of Mormon everyday. I HAVE to avoid that Coca Cola because it has caffeine. I HAVE to miss out on some activity the rest of my family is doing because it's Sunday and I HAVE to set the example for them. I HAVE to do this, or that, or the other because if I'm not busy and over-burdened then I feel like I'm falling short.

Many of the burdens we place on ourselves we then expect and even pressure others to live also.

The truth is that many of these burdens we place on OURSELVES rather than allowing the Savior to carry our burdens. We are not equally yoked with Him because we are trying to pull the plow ourselves.

It's no wonder that new members get discouraged. It's no wonder so many members in the church use anti-depressants. It's no wonder we sometimes fail in our progress even though we feel like we just can't run any faster or harder.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Colirio

[carlimac]

I haven't been excommunicated, probably would be though, and i haven't had my name removed, it's just not that important to me. I personally don't believe it makes a difference to me because i don't hold any belief in the covenants so in the end for me not of the processes matter. I walked away and that's all i needed to do for me, don't really care if it's official to the organization because it's offical to me. Again just my personal view and belief.

I didn't know you were ever baptized LDS. I thought you said you weren't a member. Or are you talking about not ever being exed from the Catholic church?

[Soulsearcher]

I didn't know you were ever baptized LDS. I thought you said you weren't a member. Or are you talking about not ever being exed from the Catholic church?

LOL I've told ya a few times I was baptized into the LDS church. I say I'm not a member because i no longer claim any allegiance to the church and don't recognize any reason to take formal steps to leave something i don't believe in. That being said i haven't been ex'd from the catholic church either lol

[Soulsearcher]

One thing to think about this is also some of us leave because we just don't believe and see no point in staying. I haven't really believed in a god of any kind for quite a long time, not even when i joined the church. I didn't leave the church because it would be easier on me, i left the church after it had served it's purpose and no longer had anything of value to offer me. Again i know this might be hard for most members to understand aside from being distasteful but for some the church does not offer anything spiritual for us in any way shape or form.

[Blackmarch]

How does the Church inflict spiritual "harm"? Or are you saying people self inflict spiritual harm by being members of the Church? Either of those ideas seem backwards to me.

It seemed to me the post was talking about excommunication, as such; The church does not inflict spiritual harm, however the covenants within it come at a greater responsibility, as well as greater blessing... which has a greater price if they are broken (and not repented of).

he who is under covenant is under greater responsibility, and as such he who breaks such covenants is under greater condemnation. By removing someone from the covenant they then can't get more condemnation for being under that covenant and breaking it.

Generally the quickest route to excommunication is being unrepentant in one's sins- if an individual does not want to change their way and remain in sin then if they were to remain in the covenant they would recieve worse condemnation than if they were not.

[carlimac]

It seemed to me the post was talking about excommunication, as such; The church does not inflict spiritual harm, however the covenants within it come at a greater responsibility, as well as greater blessing... which has a greater price if they are broken (and not repented of).

he who is under covenant is under greater responsibility, and as such he who breaks such covenants is under greater condemnation. By removing someone from the covenant they then can't get more condemnation for being under that covenant and breaking it.

Generally the quickest route to excommunication is being unrepentant in one's sins- if an individual does not want to change their way and remain in sin then if they were to remain in the covenant they would recieve worse condemnation than if they were not.

It was a few words from Sousearcher on that thread that actually preceded Anne's comment that motivated this current discussion. Since this was a public thread/discussion, I'll just go ahead and quote him rather than asking permission. Maybe you'll understand a little better where I was coming from. Not trying to gang up on Soulsearcher. I'm just trying to understnd where he and Anne and anyone else who claims the gospel can damage us is coming from.

Soulsearcher: "The other thing is people can be happy without the gospel. I know that's next to heresy for you but it's true. I was never more miserable and self loathing than when i followed the gospel. You can come up for what ever rationalizations you want to make it my fault, but i was a man of great faith. I tried the life you suggest for a very long time and it lead me to despair. Sometimes you have to know when to cut your losses. As hard as it might be to accept sometimes there has to be another path. I lived the life you describe and it didn't work. You can say trying for 30 years wasn't long enough, or i didn't truly let go of the things of the flesh, or i didn't put the effort in, but it's like conversion to a faith from another, sometimes you find something lacking and need to move on. Those converting to the faith get welcomed,while those they are leaving tend to lament the loss. The members of the new faith rarely chastise the person for leaving their old way behind, just congratulate them on the progress forward. I left something toxic behind me. It means the world to you and i respect that, but for as much good as it can do for people, it can also harm others ..."

I just don't get the "harm" thing. I know everyone has their own path to walk and I'm in no position to judge. But I balk at the notion that the Gospel of Jesus Christ "harms" anyone or is "toxic". The Gospel has no evil in it to do harm. The conquests, the witch hunts, even right down to today's suicides so commonly blamed on the Church are NOT due to the Gospel inflicting harm on people. They are the result of a combination of misinterpretations of the gospel and the pride of men. Suicide is the result of depression or a deranged mind. The true gospel of Jesus Christ is nothing but a message of hope and love.

Edited January 25, 2012 by carlimac

[carlimac]

LOL I've told ya a few times I was baptized into the LDS church. I say I'm not a member because i no longer claim any allegiance to the church and don't recognize any reason to take formal steps to leave something i don't believe in. That being said i haven't been ex'd from the catholic church either lol

Sorry. I guess I forgot or was mistaken. (gasp- no really?? Mistaken?? Couldn't be.)

[Blackmarch]

It was a few words from Sousearcher on that thread that actually preceded Anne's comment that motivated this current discussion. Since this was a public thread/discussion, I'll just go ahead and quote him rather than asking permission. Maybe you'll understand a little better where I was coming from. Not trying to gang up on Soulsearcher. I'm just trying to understnd where he and Anne and anyone else who claims the gospel can damage us is coming from.

Soulsearcher: "The other thing is people can be happy without the gospel. I know that's next to heresy for you but it's true. I was never more miserable and self loathing than when i followed the gospel. You can come up for what ever rationalizations you want to make it my fault, but i was a man of great faith. I tried the life you suggest for a very long time and it lead me to despair. Sometimes you have to know when to cut your losses. As hard as it might be to accept sometimes there has to be another path. I lived the life you describe and it didn't work. You can say trying for 30 years wasn't long enough, or i didn't truly let go of the things of the flesh, or i didn't put the effort in, but it's like conversion to a faith from another, sometimes you find something lacking and need to move on. Those converting to the faith get welcomed,while those they are leaving tend to lament the loss. The members of the new faith rarely chastise the person for leaving their old way behind, just congratulate them on the progress forward. I left something toxic behind me. It means the world to you and i respect that, but for as much good as it can do for people, it can also harm others ..."

I just don't get the "harm" thing. I know everyone has their own path to walk and I'm in no position to judge. But I balk at the notion that the Gospel of Jesus Christ "harms" anyone or is "toxic". The Gospel has no evil in it to do harm. The conquests, the witch hunts, even right down to today's suicides so commonly blamed on the Church are NOT due to the Gospel inflicting harm on people. They are the result of a combination of misinterpretations of the gospel and the pride of men. Suicide is the result of depression or a deranged mind. The true gospel of Jesus Christ is nothing but a message of hope and love.

o ok i think i see where you are coming from.

Ok i don't think the gospel itself harms, but people that walk within it have the potential to harm themselves (such as putting too much expectation on themselves, others, or something) or harm others either knowingly or unknowingly. Theres also proobably a pride/humility issue in there somewhere as well.

[Cureloms]

I think when we stand before God, he will ask how did it go down there? We will remember what we said to him when we left his presence and in a brief second all important events will be played out for all involved to review. Christ will make a statement we will make the choice of Glory that our bodies will accept, and it will be done. A select few will not accept the logic of it and become perdition. The choice to throw the towel in will be one of those events. We had a conversation in Priesthood meeting a couple of weeks ago about what constitutes a chance in hearing and rejecting the gospel in this life. I think that just like removing your name from the records, we will review our election from the premortal existence and condemn ourselves. If our premortal commitments were limited to attaining the Terrestrial Kingdom, we may not be disappointed.

[Suzie]

Oh wow...when I read the title of this thread I thought we were either talking about polygamy again, circumcision or boobs.

[annewandering]

I'm just trying to understnd where he and Anne and anyone else who claims the gospel can damage us is coming from.

.

Excuse me? I have never said the Gospel would harm anyone. If you EVER interpret me as saying this then NO that is not what I have meant, mean or ever will mean. Ever.

Part of the Gospel is allowing people to keep the covenants when they are ready to do that. If they are not keeping them then THEIR lack is harming them not the Gospel. They either need to commit to keeping their covenants or not lie to God saying they will. It is far better to not lie to God by making covenants and not keeping them. Being excommunicated takes that commitment away and thus they are no longer lying to God. It also clears them of that responsibility so they can focus on preparing to take the covenants upon them again AFTER they have repented which, hopefully will be soon.

[JudoMinja]

Try thinking about it like this:

We set goals to help us grow and progress, but if we set a goal too high it does more harm than good. If you know yourself and know you are not capable of getting an A on a test, no matter how much you study and prepare, but you set a goal for an A- you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Of course, the Lord knows what we are capable of better than we do and he would not place expectations on us we could not handle- but how about when we set a goal we COULD acheive IF we worked really, really hard and really, really pushed ourselves- but we weren't committed to it enough to give it our all. It was a goal we really didn't desire or want for ourselves enough to give us the push and motivation we needed to go through the necessary hardships to reach it. Again- we are setting ourselves up for failure.

There are some people who just aren't capable of living up to everything the temple covenants and gospel requires, and there are some who are capable but don't want it badly enough to commit. If they mark that as a goal and direction for their life when they are never going to reach it, it is going to do them more harm than good. The goal itself isn't bad or harming them- the gospel isn't bad or harming them- but the situation they are putting themselves in is causing harm.

Now, I don't know if backing out of a commitment just to avoid the responsibility really gets you off the hook. I'm inclined to think that in most cases it doesn't, but I think that there may be situations out there that are exceptions to the rule. An excommunication geared toward helping with repentance though, removes someone from that awkward situation of trying to keep a promise and continuously failing. In these cases, the person was trying to follow through and just falling short, so God lets them out of the promise while they work on themselves and get to a point where they are capable of acheiving again.

Then, of course, there are the examples like Soul's situation. Soul has no desire to work toward the goal of temple worthiness or to set "unnecessary" limitations on himself, because he doesn't believe it. When he was in the church, he was like the person setting the good goal he doesn't really want for himself, and then hurting when he found he couldn't reach it. Letting go of the goal is like a healing in and of itself, because you let go of the pain associated with failure- and unnecessary failure at that because you don't even want the goal you were setting.

We are all at different places in our lives, and if we want to progress forward, we need to set feasable goals for ourselves. We need to set requirements on ourselves that we actually can and want to acheive. Then, as we find ourselves successful, we are encouraged to set higher and higher goals and are able to move forward. The commitment and responsibilities that come with being a member of the church can be too much for people who aren't ready for it, and may desire going in an entirely different direction. I believe that God takes our circumstances into account, and that he judges us based on our progression more than where we actually are. We have to take small baby steps to avoid discouragement, and some peoples baby steps put them at different points along the path than others.

[carlimac]

Excuse me? I have never said the Gospel would harm anyone. If you EVER interpret me as saying this then NO that is not what I have meant, mean or ever will mean. Ever.

Part of the Gospel is allowing people to keep the covenants when they are ready to do that. If they are not keeping them then THEIR lack is harming them not the Gospel. They either need to commit to keeping their covenants or not lie to God saying they will. It is far better to not lie to God by making covenants and not keeping them. Being excommunicated takes that commitment away and thus they are no longer lying to God. It also clears them of that responsibility so they can focus on preparing to take the covenants upon them again AFTER they have repented which, hopefully will be soon.

In an ideal situation, someone would feel remorse at being excommunicated, work towards re-baptism and then make those covenants again soon. But I don't think it works that smoothly very often. I have no idea what the stats are but I would bet more never get re-baptized than do. And if someone willfully takes their name off the roles, even less of a chance of coming back. So I guess I just don't get the idea of essentially taking a breather from being accountable, like a vacation from keeping covenants for awhile. It sounds like a really bad idea unless the excommunication is for a sin of commission, the person is remorseful and repentant and wants their covenants back..

I didn't mean to accuse you of saying something you didn't mean. I don't believe you think the Gospel harms anyone, but your post came right on the heels of Soulsearcher saying this:

"I'm not saying faith can't be a huge help, not even dismissing the tremendous strength the church it's self can offer to some. I am saying much to the horror of many on this site that it does not bring comfort to all"

So I assumed you agreed with him that the best way out of the situation if the gospel is just too hard to live is to give up and walk away from it. True, you never said it harmed anyone. My mistake.

Edited January 27, 2012 by carlimac