What would you say?

[Vort]

Oh my, you're right, "possible dependents" sounds pretty bad. I wasn't really thinking of it like that. Sorry, Traveler. I was going for vague.

I'd still like to go for vague, but i'll try to give a little more detail. I actually know 2 ladies who believe this. One is a single woman who has never been married. I don't know her very well, but she has always seemed a little unstable to me in a Mormon-religious-fanatic type of way. The other is a divorced woman with 2 small children. They are roommates, living in a small basement apartment where the kids have to sleep on the floor because they have no beds. The divorced lady actually has a master's degree in business administration and has turned down a few REALLY GOOD job offers over the years because of this "revelation."

Amazing. I don't really understand the attitude.

A thought off the top of my head: In the Church we have an emphasis on familial duties and a (rightful) teaching that a woman's primary familial duty is the care and nurture of the children. Is it possible that some women misunderstand this as an entitlement not to work outside the home? Perhaps they are under the mistaken impression that the rest of the world, or at least the rest of the Saints, owe them their maintenance.

[rameumptom]

When I was a clerk in a YSA ward in Utah many centuries ago, my bishop once noted to me that he recently had spoken with 4 girls in the ward, each having received a revelation that they were to marry this one guy. The bishop had to explain to them that they were probably misinterpreting the revelation. The revelation was probably telling them that this guy would be "a" right man to marry, if he so inclined to do so.

I once knew a man in the Wasatch area (in the 1980s), who received "revelations" from angels telling him to prepare for an invasion by the Russians. He had food and weapons stored in caves throughout the Wasatch Front, and a group of both LDS and non-LDS working with him, ready to be freedom fighters. Here we are about 30 years later, he is now in his 70s, and the Soviet Empire is no longer. Obviously, he was receiving his revelations from the wrong source.

If we "look beyond the mark" instead of focusing on the correct principles taught by the Prophet, then we will often "receive revelations" that we either misinterpret, or that are from the wrong source.

[Traveler]

Oh my, you're right, "possible dependents" sounds pretty bad. I wasn't really thinking of it like that. Sorry, Traveler. I was going for vague.

I'd still like to go for vague, but i'll try to give a little more detail. I actually know 2 ladies who believe this. One is a single woman who has never been married. I don't know her very well, but she has always seemed a little unstable to me in a Mormon-religious-fanatic type of way. The other is a divorced woman with 2 small children. They are roommates, living in a small basement apartment where the kids have to sleep on the floor because they have no beds. The divorced lady actually has a master's degree in business administration and has turned down a few REALLY GOOD job offers over the years because of this "revelation."

I thought I would respond to you Connie. I grew up in wealth but did not know it because my father thought that rich kids are problems in society. I did not sleep on the floor but there were 3 of us to a single bed sleeping sideways. I was put to work at the age of 8 thinking it was necessary to help support the family. During my college years I discovered my father’s wealth on accident. That summer I had put together a crew (of ten) that was painting his apartments (several hundred) for summer work. I ran the project and was in essence the boss or foreman but my father paid everyone on my crew more than me. I confronted him that I should be paid more. In essence he agreed that I deserved more but since I was his son I would have to settle for the least.

One important thing I learned from my father – who was very generous and gave much to others (he was much more liberal with others than his own kids) -- it is not helpful when individuals receiving assistance look for more in assistance than what they are willing to do for themselves. This especially applies to children forced into a situation of more leisure than contribution. I recall family vacations as a youth having to get up early to spend 4 or 5 hours service at a local church welfare farm. I am so grateful (NOW) for how I was taught growing up.

The Traveler

[MarginOfError]

I am somewhat hesitant to reject outright the possibility that a single woman with children might receive a revelation that she should not enter the work force in order to focus on raising her children. It seems odd to me, but I'm comfortable with the idea that my own biases may be interfering.

However, if she expected the Church to support her and her children through this, I'd kindly suggest that the Church may be willing to help her enroll for government assistance. I'd also suggest that she may not ever have a standard of living much beyond what government assistance can provide.

As far as passing judgment on such a woman, let's not forget that, depending on the age of the children, going into the workforce might not be of any benefit to her and her family if it means paying for child care. If she only makes enough to cover child care and housing, she may not have enough left for food or other necessities and disqualify herself from government assistance. In some cases, it makes more sense economically to not work and take the government assistance.

[HEthePrimate]

What would you say to a single woman who claimed to have received revelation that she did not need to work and that the church should support her and any possible dependents?

I might say that I had a revelation that I am under no obligation to support her for no apparent reason at all! I mean, if she was sick, or disabled, or something, that would be one thing, but just because she doesn't want to work? No sirreee Bob!

[HEthePrimate]

I am somewhat hesitant to reject outright the possibility that a single woman with children might receive a revelation that she should not enter the work force in order to focus on raising her children. It seems odd to me, but I'm comfortable with the idea that my own biases may be interfering.

However, if she expected the Church to support her and her children through this, I'd kindly suggest that the Church may be willing to help her enroll for government assistance. I'd also suggest that she may not ever have a standard of living much beyond what government assistance can provide.

As far as passing judgment on such a woman, let's not forget that, depending on the age of the children, going into the workforce might not be of any benefit to her and her family if it means paying for child care. If she only makes enough to cover child care and housing, she may not have enough left for food or other necessities and disqualify herself from government assistance. In some cases, it makes more sense economically to not work and take the government assistance.

Ok, my last post was my knee-jerk reaction. You do make some good points. Being a single parent is difficult, and getting child care for when she's at work can be expensive, and depending on the type of job she has, might consume so much of her income that it wouldn't be worth it. So depending on the circumstances, it is possible that a single mother might reasonably ask for assistance.

I suppose the take-home message is that there is no one-size-fits-all solution. Some women may not be able to work a job in addition to raising their children, while others may be able to.

Seldom, if ever, would I accept something merely because somebody said they received a revelation from God. But perhaps we shouldn't reject it out of hand, either. I'd also examine the circumstances, evidence, etc. and see if the "revelation" made sense according to the reality of the situation before making a decision.

For the sake of gender equity, you'd have to allow the same for single fathers, though! Are we willing to support a non-working single father while he stays at home to take care of his children?

Edited February 7, 2012 by HEthePrimate

[Shelly200]

However, if she expected the Church to support her and her children through this, I'd kindly suggest that the Church may be willing to help her enroll for government assistance. I'd also suggest that she may not ever have a standard of living much beyond what government assistance can provide.

As far as passing judgment on such a woman, let's not forget that, depending on the age of the children, going into the workforce might not be of any benefit to her and her family if it means paying for child care. If she only makes enough to cover child care and housing, she may not have enough left for food or other necessities and disqualify herself from government assistance. In some cases, it makes more sense economically to not work and take the government assistance.

Um... no. This takes it a bit too far, in my opinion. Firstly because it was already mentioned that the woman had a master's degree and was turning down good jobs within her field. I'm pretty sure she'd make enough money to support herself and her two children, and afford childcare on a master's degree salary.

(Not to mention the fact that you've just described a *common* attitude of many people on government assistance, who can work but choose not to because their unemployment checks are bigger than the checks they'd make for the jobs available... that attitude leads to laziness, irresponsibility, a huge deficit, an entitlement complex, and who's to say everyone can't just laze around until they find a higher paying job? I'd *love* to make more money. That doesn't mean I'm not going to take what I can get.)

Secondly, this is a religion vs. state thing at this point. If she wants to have "revelations" allowing her to not work, fine. If the LDS church believes her, then IT should maintain her upkeep, NOT the secular U.S. government, and by extension me... who doesn't believe in her revelations at all. I should not be expected to support her or her family because of her religious convictions, anymore than you should be expected to support me or my family if the pope declared it sinful for women to work. Once you bring the government into the picture, things change.

From the scenario that is being described I'm surprised social services aren't involved. Not working to provide for your kids, and not providing for them properly so that they have to sleep on a basement floor? She needs to watch herself. If this was truly a revelation from God, wouldn't He provide a way for it to be fulfilled? If not, someone needs to intervene.

[Dove]

When I was a clerk in a YSA ward in Utah many centuries ago, my bishop once noted to me that he recently had spoken with 4 girls in the ward, each having received a revelation that they were to marry this one guy. The bishop had to explain to them that they were probably misinterpreting the revelation. The revelation was probably telling them that this guy would be "a" right man to marry, if he so inclined to do so.

I once knew a man in the Wasatch area (in the 1980s), who received "revelations" from angels telling him to prepare for an invasion by the Russians. He had food and weapons stored in caves throughout the Wasatch Front, and a group of both LDS and non-LDS working with him, ready to be freedom fighters. Here we are about 30 years later, he is now in his 70s, and the Soviet Empire is no longer. Obviously, he was receiving his revelations from the wrong source.

If we "look beyond the mark" instead of focusing on the correct principles taught by the Prophet, then we will often "receive revelations" that we either misinterpret, or that are from the wrong source.

I agree with and appreciate this comment, Rameumptom. I do have a "but," to add though. It is that there is a hierarchy in the gospel to determine if a person other than ourselves is receiving false revelation. For instance; yes, absolutely, my bishop, who is a steward over me, can receive revelation for me/on my behalf that if what I'm perceiving is coming from the Spirit actually is or not. However, that same bishop cannot receive revelation for the prophet in regards to the church as a whole. He cannot determine direction for the membership of the church. That is the prophets role....

What I'm saying is let's be careful in judging this particular instance/person as right or wrong or in a derogatory way. It's just not fair. We don't know the intent of her heart or if she is truly acting out of being crazy or lazy, as I've said.

Honestly, this is a sensitive topic to me, as I'm on disability for psychiatric reasons. I've suffered for many years with extreme depression, as well as other diagnosis'....I have been hospitalised several times for this and have had difficulty keeping jobs throughout the years~

I'm sharing this because when I did finally apply for psychiatric disability, while I was immediately given it after applying, I went through an extensive process of documenting my psychiatric problems. This included providing the names and contact information of doctors, former employers and family members who knew me and how I lived.....I certainly needed to prove my disability to the government in order to receive benefits....

I do feel bad for receiving assistance now and not being able to work. I have tried to work a couple of fast food jobs; but, was unable to do so. It is my hope to become stabilised on my medications and to eventually have the mental/physical health to enter the workforce again.This is my hope.....

I have heard many horror stories about women conceiving and bearing children just to receive more welfare. How awful if this is true. However, my experience with the government has been different. This is not to say that the government hasn't spent taxpayers money wrongly. It is to say that there are many valid instances where people do need assistance~ And that it's not ours to judge or put down those situations we don't know or have not authority over.

Dove

Edited February 7, 2012 by Dove

[Jennarator]

Aren't there several talks where the GA's tell women to get an education so that they can support their famililies if need be?!?

I am a working mom and have been since I've been a mom. Yes, full time. Women need to work and put their shoulder to the wheel, if need be, just as much as men. Now, if a husband can take care of the family, great, don't work! If there are extenuating circumstances, super! DOn't work, but in most cases, women need to step up and work, if there is not a husband or parent or someone taking care of them. Again, unless there is some exception where she NEEDS to stay home.

[kayne]

I have heard many horror stories about women conceiving and bearing children just to receive more welfare. How awful if this is true. However, my experience with the government has been different. This is not to say that the government hasn't spent taxpayers money wrongly. It is to say that there are many valid instances where people do need assistance~ And that it's not ours to judge or put down those situations we don't know or have not authority over.

this is very true a lot of people do just this. spit out children for welfare money. a lot of times this means the dad is used for sex and then discarded with little care. this goes a long with this hypothetical revelation in that it sounds very much like it is from Satan. furthermore welfare itsself at least in long term use not temporary im down on my luck please help me for a little while but in the long term life long sense is generally an evil contraption barring a few rare circumstances which dont really justify its existence. also to be clear government welfare is my point of concern not so much private welfare though even in private welfare the point should be to get you off of it which is where i would devert these rare circumstances too instead since government welfare is basically and evil soul sucking entity.

however if you can and dont have prior engagements(for example you are the stay at home spouse with kids) then there is no reason you shouldnt be out working or seeking employment.

alas the data is skewed. many are life long receipients. many have kids just for welfare money and many claim disability when there is none or claim disability but could still work in another field.

i'd tell this women get a freakin job.

[Colirio]

The church teaches self-reliance, it is true. But that is also temporal as well as SPIRITUAL self-reliance. Here this (or these) women are doing their best to pray and receive revelation for themselves, trying to become spiritually self-reliant, and we would tell them that they are listening to wrong sources for their inspiriration and that they merely need to know what the church teaches on the subject?

Does such a response encourage or discourage their efforts to become spiritually self-reliant?

For every "keep the Sabbath day holy" there is a "get your ox out of the mire." I believe this is Grand Design to help us learn to become spiritually self-reliant. I have had to learn through trial and error what the Spirit feels like and assume most everyone else in the whole wide world did or does, too.

As for the comparing this to government assistance programs, I would rather give to fast offering donations all the money that I have been paying in taxes any day of the week. At least I would know that ALL my money goes for those in need, has a spiritual leader called of God to make the financial decisions regarding how it's spent, and that the program is for helping others to become self-reliant. I don't even like to lump those two programs into the same category personally.

I have no problems at all supporting the widow, the fatherless, and the disabled both temporally and spiritually. It's not MY money, MY time, or MY testimony as it all comes from the Lord. He calls someone to be a judge in Israel and I'll leave to that man the decisions on how my donations are spent, even if someone is trying to "game" the system.

As for the women who are claiming to receive these revelations, I find myself in no position to judge them. I certainly am no one to cast the first stone as I am not sinless. For all I know, they spent many hours on their knees struggling and in tears trying to cope with that answer to their prayers.

We should love them and treat them as we would any other saint.

[MarginOfError]

Um... no. This takes it a bit too far, in my opinion. Firstly because it was already mentioned that the woman had a master's degree and was turning down good jobs within her field. I'm pretty sure she'd make enough money to support herself and her two children, and afford childcare on a master's degree salary.

While the situation of one woman was described, the condemnations of the situation have been non-specific and sweeping. The general gist from most responses was that no one under any circumstances could ever receive such a revelation; it must come from a false source. My comments were intended to counter that assumption, and make the case that there are circumstances where it might be beneficial to the woman and her children to not seek employment.

Ultimately, the point is that we should try to understand the woman's unique situation fully, as can only be done on a case-by-case basis of understanding her experience, before jumping to conclusions based on the interpretations of scripture that we have found relevant in our own experience.

(Not to mention the fact that you've just described a *common* attitude of many people on government assistance, who can work but choose not to because their unemployment checks are bigger than the checks they'd make for the jobs available... that attitude leads to laziness, irresponsibility, a huge deficit, an entitlement complex, and who's to say everyone can't just laze around until they find a higher paying job? I'd *love* to make more money. That doesn't mean I'm not going to take what I can get.)

So you'd really suggest to a woman with children that she take a low paying job that fails to cover her expenses in addition to requiring her to pay for child care instead of accepting government assistance that fails to cover her expenses but relieves her of the burden of paying for child care?

Secondly, this is a religion vs. state thing at this point. If she wants to have "revelations" allowing her to not work, fine. If the LDS church believes her, then IT should maintain her upkeep, NOT the secular U.S. government, and by extension me... who doesn't believe in her revelations at all. I should not be expected to support her or her family because of her religious convictions, anymore than you should be expected to support me or my family if the pope declared it sinful for women to work. Once you bring the government into the picture, things change.

You may want to have a discussion with the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve then. Because it was those bodies of leadership that wrote into the Handbooks that members in need of long-term welfare support should be referred to and given assistance in obtaining government benefits.

From the scenario that is being described I'm surprised social services aren't involved. Not working to provide for your kids, and not providing for them properly so that they have to sleep on a basement floor? She needs to watch herself. If this was truly a revelation from God, wouldn't He provide a way for it to be fulfilled? If not, someone needs to intervene.

If it were a commandment from God, of course he would provide a way for it to be fulfilled. Much like he provided a way for Nephi to murder Laban in order to get the brass plates. Sure the Lord will provide a way, but that doesn't mean it's going to be pretty.

Let me say again that it is wholly inappropriate to judge this woman's situation and make decisions without counseling with her, getting to understand her thought process, and understanding the experience that has led her to what she feels is her revelation. There may be a need to help her adjust her attitude. There may not be. I don't know the answer, but I do know that I'll never be of any value to her if I don't seek to understand her and her needs.

[MarginOfError]

this is very true a lot of people do just this. spit out children for welfare money. a lot of times this means the dad is used for sex and then discarded with little care. this goes a long with this hypothetical revelation in that it sounds very much like it is from Satan. furthermore welfare itsself at least in long term use not temporary im down on my luck please help me for a little while but in the long term life long sense is generally an evil contraption barring a few rare circumstances which dont really justify its existence. also to be clear government welfare is my point of concern not so much private welfare though even in private welfare the point should be to get you off of it which is where i would devert these rare circumstances too instead since government welfare is basically and evil soul sucking entity.

This actually isn't a problem with welfare so much as it is a problem with education. People who think their solution to financial problems is to have more children so they can get more money from the government lack the numerical literacy to understand the the cost of living increase associated with a child is larger than the amount of money given for the additional child. Some of these people simply lack the critical thinking skills necessary to understand that simple a cost-benefit analysis.

however if you can and dont have prior engagements(for example you are the stay at home spouse with kids) then there is no reason you shouldnt be out working or seeking employment.

alas the data is skewed. many are life long receipients. many have kids just for welfare money and many claim disability when there is none or claim disability but could still work in another field.

This is actually a welfare problem. The problem, however, is a much larger government that would allow welfare to be administered on a local level, with people who have personal relationships with the recipients.

[Dove]

Margin of Error~

I really appreciate your intelligent arguments and reasoning about this. You said far better what I was trying to say all along; which was that we shouldn't be so quick to judge another at all, unless we are the "judges of Israel."

Thanks so much for defending this unknown woman.

[Magen_Avot]

...it is wholly inappropriate to judge this woman's situation and make decisions without counseling with her, getting to understand her thought process, and understanding the experience that has led her to what she feels is her revelation. There may be a need to help her adjust her attitude. There may not be. I don't know the answer, but I do know that I'll never be of any value to her if I don't seek to understand her and her needs.

Amen

[Backroads]

Dove and MoE, I really do appreciate what you are saying; but I can't get my head around the possible reasons that would justify a woman perfectly capable of getting real work to provide reasonably for her family NOT working.

I admit, however, I'm imagining this woman wants support in everything. Does she want the church to maintain a lifestyle or simply put food on the table?

Yes, it is always best to find out just what she is thinking and feeling. But am I honestly supposed to bend over backward for everyone who doesn't want to hold up his/her end of the bargain? I'm not her bishop--all I can do is view the situation on the facts I have.