What would you do

[Iggy]

For the last 7 to 8 months we have had an elderly woman coming to church. She dresses like she lives on the street- though she is clean and the clothes smell freshly laundered.

From the first time she started coming she puts her make up on during sacrament, or if she falls asleep during sacrament, then she does it during gospel doctrine.

She brings food and drink into each block with her. Regular type mugs of coffee, glasses of ice tea, 32 oz glasses of sodas. The food she brings is anywhere from Cheeto's, Dorito's, cracker jacks, store bought sandwiches, etc.

Last Dec. her 32 oz glass of tea fell over (she put it on the floor, under the chair in front of her and when the 3 year old who was sitting on the chair got up to leave to go to primary, it got knocked over. This woman's response: "don't worry about it, it was just ice tea". I grabbed her well worn, washed, cloth satchel and mopped up the tea, while my husband and two sisters dashed to the restrooms to get paper towels. I let her know that food and drinks were not allowed in the chapel. She said she was diabetic and had to have it. I told her that 1/3 of the members in attendance that day are diabetics, myself included, and we sure as the dickens don't NEED to bring food and drinks into the chapel.

Then in RS that same Sunday, she proceeds to put on her make up. She is 80 if she is a day, and she is putting on lime green eyeshadow, thick eyebrows in black and orange-red lipstick. Not to mention the liquid foundation. Her hair is white, but she colors it "strawberry" blond. Orange is more like it.

Okay- this last Sunday was our Stake Conference. We have it piped in- via internet. She brings in a full cup of coffee, cracker jacks and ding dongs. The cup is set on the floor, and she then proceeds to go to sleep.

THANKFULLY, there is no gospel doctrine or RS. Thus she has to forgo the make up applying.

Someone picked up her cup of coffee and when they tried to dump it in the sink- the brother who brought her took it. He didn't dump it out, he put it under the chair in the last row in the chapel, and gave it to her when she went by him.

This member couple bring her to church, drinks in tow- satchel filled with food. Some of the members think she is living on the streets. I have seen her entering and leaving one of the apartments in the subsidized apartments next to the POffice. Chances are real good she is sharing this apartment. And chance are she comes to our church because our services are 3 hours long, it is warm and we do NOT Hallelujah, PRAISE GOD during the meetings. We are quiet.

Last Sunday I blew up. I started to blow at the brother handing the full cup back to her. Then I heard the conversation between the missionaries and her. They wanted to set up an appointment to give her the lessons, she told them flat out she had her own faith, that she was a preacher, she had her own church. ((Then why is she coming to ours, and disrespecting it???))

I went hunting for the Branch Pres. I unloaded on him, told him how I thought it was rude, disrespectful of our faith, toward our church. And I also thought it was time the "Brethren" quit with the Politically Correct crap and tell her point blank that bringing in drinks: Coffee, tea, soda, juice is NOT allowed. That IF she has to eat between the classes, to go into the kitchen, sit down on one of the little chairs, take 5 or 10 minutes to eat, then go to class. As regards the make up- put it on BEFORE she gets to the church, and do NOT wipe her hands on the chair upholstery to clean them off!!!

The Branch Pres. just grinned at me. I was oh so close to smacking that smirk off his face. I think I just might have told him to get the smirk off his face or else I will slap it off of him. I know I was thinking it- don't know if I thought out loud or not. His wifes eyes got real big.

I have NEVER been that mad before. I took one step toward him, then I did a right turn and left the building.

All the way home in the car I fumed, spouted and railed. Husband listened, then when we got home he asked if I had taken my HBPressure meds? And asked me to check my blood pressure. 138/83- not all that high for me.

The branch pres said "they were working on that"- his 1st counselor says "they are aware of it"-

What would you do? As a Priesthood holder? As a Sister?

I think I probably should apologize to the Branch Pres for the comment about the smirk. I may be cooled off by next Sunday. He is an irritating little man to begin with- he doesn't smile, he smirks. And even when it accompanies a funny statement, I still want to SLAP it off his face. I know, I am bad .

[RMGuy]

Well you did ask.......

I would like to think that I would welcome her, and would love try to love her....even with her flaws and foibles, since that is how I want Christ to love me.

-RM

[Gramajane]

The REAL question is "What would Jesus do?". I think this sister (we are ALL bro n sis, right?) needs some great visiting teachers! She needs some "built in friends" who will listen to her and so get to know her as she (and ALL of us) are valuable children of God.

Maybe she comes because she feels the Holy Spirit (which is loving acceptance- not angry judging or rejecting). I think if she comes enough some of the teachings may just reach her, but it is the people that are the agents of main transfer.

It sounds like she is not noisy, dressed immodestly or handling others personal belongings or bodies. I understand that even if someone drunk were to come in our Sacrament service, we are not to eject them, but let them stay kindly escort them to the foyer and help them get to their home, if they are loud.

---- Maybe you are on the right track to question guilt in yourself? Is your heart being loving and Christlike to her? Only Christ knows her heart of hearts, but someone could get to know her and see what help is needed. Maybe that someone might be you, and that would help you become more Christlike-- but I fear that if your heart is not good to start with in approaching her, that being around you would not help her. That is sure sad for you.

[MarginOfError]

If she's 80 years old, it wouldn't surprise me if she comes because it's one of the few moments of social interaction she gets. She is likely senile and may be entering phases of dementia.

I'd be inclined to reason with her about the drinks in the building. Or at least get her covered containers that won't spill. I tend to give people in extremely advanced age a lot of leeway. By the time people hit their 80's it's often better to just make like comfortable and enjoyable for them. They may not have a lot of time left and I don't see any reason why they should spend it worrying about how they fit in socially.

[Guest]

There was once this prostitute who was about to be stoned in the middle of the village square... but then this dude said, "let those who has no sin cast the first stone"...

I say you need a change in perspective.

Now, let's say you are right and the preacher lady comes to Church just to have a place to stay warm. What's wrong with that? I would hope that the least we can do for people in need is share our pews for warmth.

Now, let's say she's homeless and has no other place to eat but the church. Welcome! We have plenty of room for a meal. But yes, getting drinks spilled in the church is not good. So, the next Sunday, I would bring a couple of those covered mugs that you use in the car and sit right next to her. When she pulls out her tea/coffee, I'd immediately offer to pour it into the covered mugs. Then I would sit next to her in Relief Society and when the class is over, I'd pour whatever is left of her drinks back into her mug so I can bring the covered mug to the kitchen, wash it and dry it and have it ready for next Sunday. While I'm at it, I'd make sure I have a pack of wet ones so I can help her wipe her hands so she doesn't mess up the pews. As far as the coffee and tea. She can drink it, no problem. She's never made the covenant to obey the Word of Wisdom. In any case, we shouldn't judge when somebody needs to eat. If we've brought up the "it would be better if you can hold off on eating" and she says she needs to eat, then that's all we can do.

There's nothing wrong with lime green make-up. Some people like it. Hey, I thought Angelina Jolie looked garish in her make-up in Salt. The fact of the matter is - just because we don't like how someone looks in their choice of cosmetics shouldn't make us waspishly critical of it. Okay, you're right. She shouldn't be putting make-up on while in the middle of class. I would try to catch her right when she walks into sacrament and ask her if you could help her with her make-up in the restroom since you are really good with it. If it's looking like you might miss the passing of the sacrament, then I'd wait until sacrament service is over and if she still hasn't put on her make-up, I'd offer to help her with it between service and Sunday School. In any case, there are a lot worse things one can do in class besides putting on make-up.

Okay, what I'm really trying to say here is - negativity is not the means by which we come closer to Christ. When we have done the best we can to the least of our brethren, that's when we have served Christ the most. It is very bad to our Spirits to come edified with gospel principles every Sunday just to throw it to the ditch when faced with a real life opportunity to practice what we learn in those lessons. She might not be there to learn about the gospel. But, we should rather that she spend 3 hours sitting in Church, hopefully absorbing little bits of what we teach, and feel the love and charity of God's people, than have her be somewhere else.

I will even go so far as to say that you are failing this test of Charity. It has digressed your Spirit so much that you are spreading the negativity to your relationship with Church leadership. We are learning the song Choose the Right in primary. The 2nd verse goes:

Choose the Right

Let no spirit of digression

Overcome you in the evil hour.

You are allowing the spirit of digression overcome you. Go be strong and do some good work and love this woman to the best of your ability. It's a great opportunity for Christ-like charity (love). Remember that Christ himself hung on the cross, getting pierced by swords, and still had the strength to say, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do".

Edited February 14, 2012 by anatess

[john doe]

A few thoughts come to mind:

1) Motes and Beams.

2) It's never my place to tell someone else that they don't belong in Church.

3) Church was created for the benefit of man, not the other way around.

4) Patience is a virtue.

5) We all suffer from judging others, whether righteously or not.

6) Charity is the Pure Love of Christ.

7) What would Jesus do?

[Magen_Avot]

Hi Iggy! Ya know what you are experienceing is just life and we all respond differently. Doling out opinions can be mixed with imperfect filters and judgements which I don't believe you deserve here because it just wouldn't help. I think it's great you've taken a step back to look at the situation and, you've even asked for input here.

I do believe this is as good an opportunity there is to make a difference, and by what you said several people can be impacted for the better. There are pearls in the responses to your OP and I am rooting for you as you find ways to reach out to this woman. I would share ideas such as visiting her, inviting her over for dinner, giving her rides where ever she may need to go (as your schedule permits of course). Doing this or anything else for her will be most beneficial as you approach Heavenly Father and act with the love of Christ,... and I'm sure you know that. And... (since I am responding to 'what I would do') I'd apologize to the BP. I'd just bet it's not easy making the hard decisions, or the right ones when they're not popular. This would be a humbling experience for me, and what the hec! I've been there before.

Good luck Iggy.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Magen_Avot

[Gwen]

I have a different perspective.... though I don't disagree with much of what has been said already.

Our branch just combined with one about 30 min from us. This branch has a lot of very new members that have a lot to learn about the church and they were allowed to create some bad habits in the more dependent branch. One of their their bad habits is eating constantly the entire 3 hrs, including fast sunday, and leaving their trash and crumbs all over the place for others to clean up. Sometimes they even leave and walk next door to the fast food place and bring food back.

For me the internal argument goes something like this....

It's disruptive and irreverent so something should be said.... if you say something it might offend them and they are already struggling having had their branch closed so we don't want to make them feel unwelcome.... but.... why should we keep cleaning up after them and allowing them to be dependent... this goes deeper than food it's about helping them progress in the gospel.... if they can't even go 3 hrs without food how will they ever learn the self discipline required to fast?..... if we don't say something we are robbing them of the blessings of growing in the gospel..... but it's none of my business who does and does not fast, that is up to them to desire to progress.... on the other hand it's really hard to teach my kids to fast if there are ppl behind them smacking and chomping on chips and soda..... good opportunity to teach my kids how to ignore some things?..... but then again what about the members growth opportunities?

And it goes on and on, as you can see I can make a case for either approach. My opinion, someone further up the line of authority needs to do a lesson or announcement to make 2 requests. 1) no food during sacrament meeting. 2) No food in the building on fast Sunday. You don't have to fast but respect those who are by not bringing food in. Once those 2 things can be done without to much fuss then add another request and another until things are where they ought to be. But then I'm not in charge so..... I've shared my opinion and it's turned over to the branch pres. lol

[Madriglace]

In our ward we have a sister that has a "Service dog" .... she bought the puppy this past fall and decided it was a service dog and went through some fly by night group to get a jacket. The dog has no training, no manners, gets fed and watered all during the meetings, and barks in church! Really annoying especially to someone who has worked so hard for years following the rules of being a good dog owner. The answer i got when i took it to the Lord ... "Let it go". Hey at least she is in church where she needs to be and maybe learning something ... the dog not so much!

[RMGuy]

In our ward we have a sister that has a "Service dog" .... she bought the puppy this past fall and decided it was a service dog and went through some fly by night group to get a jacket. The dog has no training, no manners, gets fed and watered all during the meetings, and barks in church! Really annoying especially to someone who has worked so hard for years following the rules of being a good dog owner. The answer i got when i took it to the Lord ... "Let it go". Hey at least she is in church where she needs to be and maybe learning something ... the dog not so much!

I would love to be in your ward. A dog barking in the middle of some talks might provide needed comic relief.

-RM

[annewandering]

If the woman is hungry or thirsty you might take her to the kitchen where she can keep food and drink in a proper setting. Sit down with her while she is eating. Helping with her make up seems like a good idea. Maybe you could consider it your temporary calling?

At 80 years old she is not going to be there all that long especially since she seems to be showing some signs of dementia. At this time I suspect her being there is a trial to not only you but the rest of your ward in learning how to deal with the elderly in a kind way. It would be great to pass the test so God doesnt have to give you all another one. ^^ :)

[Guest]

I would love to be in your ward. A dog barking in the middle of some talks might provide needed comic relief.

-RM

I accidentally started playing the closing song on the organ as the last speaker got up one time. Oops.

[Guest]

It sounds to me like you dislike this woman at least as much as you disapprove of her behavior in church. The Branch President said they're handling it. Let them. Turn your head and try to enjoy church.

[Martain]

Sometimes there are individuals who simply push our buttons and know how to really get us worked up and frustrated.

I expect that one of the reasons why this upsets you and makes you so frustrated is because although you know what you would do if she were your mother or your child, she's not and so you have no rights of stewardship. This means while you can give advice to those in charge, you have no authority to enact them.

You've done the right thing by bringing your concerns to the priesthood authority. At this point it's in their court and out of your hands. Sometimes you simply have to ask the lord to take away the burden of frustration and grant you grace to endure the less than favorable situation.

I've had such experiences in the past and received such aid so I know you can too. It makes a huge difference. So ultimately my advice? Pray for grace =)

Edited February 15, 2012 by Martain

[Iggy]

Well you did ask.......

I would like to think that I would welcome her, and would love try to love her....even with her flaws and foibles, since that is how I want Christ to love me. -RM

At first I did.

The REAL question is "What would Jesus do?". Jesus tossed out the money lenders and those who defiled the temple out. I think this sister (we are ALL bro n sis, right?) needs some great visiting teachers! She is not a baptized member of the Church. Until she is baptized, she will not be assigned VT. She needs some "built in friends" who will listen to her and so get to know her as she (and ALL of us) are valuable children of God.

Maybe she comes because she feels the Holy Spirit (which is loving acceptance- not angry judging or rejecting). I think if she comes enough some of the teachings may just reach her, but it is the people that are the agents of main transfer.

It sounds like she is not noisy, dressed immodestly or handling others personal belongings or bodies. I understand that even if someone drunk were to come in our Sacrament service, we are not to eject them, but let them stay kindly escort them to the foyer and help them get to their home, if they are loud. The few times that drunks interupted Sacrament or classes, they were escorted outside and the police were called. Church insurance does not cover members driving a drunk home, nor is it encouraged by the Branch Presidency.

---- Maybe you are on the right track to question guilt in yourself? It is not guilt, it is anger. Is your heart being loving and Christlike to her? Only Christ knows her heart of hearts, but someone could get to know her and see what help is needed. Maybe that someone might be you, and that would help you become more Christlike-- but I fear that if your heart is not good to start with in approaching her, that being around you would not help her. That is sure sad for you. Wow, what a body slam that was. Just, Wow.

If she's 80 years old, it wouldn't surprise me if she comes because it's one of the few moments of social interaction she gets. She is likely senile and may be entering phases of dementia.

I'd be inclined to reason with her about the drinks in the building. Or at least get her covered containers that won't spill. I tend to give people in extremely advanced age a lot of leeway. By the time people hit their 80's it's often better to just make like comfortable and enjoyable for them. They may not have a lot of time left and I don't see any reason why they should spend it worrying about how they fit in socially.

Hadn't thought of dementia – when she participates in Gospel Doctrine she is quite knowledgeable of the Bible. At first she was using one of the new age translations, and of course no one knew what she was reading. The following Sunday she brought her KJV. She vehemently refuses to touch the Book of Mormon , or the D&C or the Pearl of Great Price.

There was once this prostitute who was about to be stoned in the middle of the village square... but then this dude said, "let those who has no sin cast the first stone"... I don't see how this scripture is applicable here?

I say you need a change in perspective. Agreed, I need to banish the anger- I am frustrated with why the anger, why is her bringing in coffee and tea and the sodas making me so angry? For me, if I know the why, then it is easier to get rid of it, banish it. Change it.

Now, let's say you are right and the preacher lady comes to Church just to have a place to stay warm. What's wrong with that? I would hope that the least we can do for people in need is share our pews for warmth.Our Branch is the farthest church from town, why doesn't she go to the others. They all serve coffee/tea and food after their services.

Now, let's say she's homeless and has no other place to eat but the church. Welcome! We have plenty of room for a meal. But yes, getting drinks spilled in the church is not good. So, the next Sunday, I would bring a couple of those covered mugs that you use in the car and sit right next to her. When she pulls out her tea/coffee, I'd immediately offer to pour it into the covered mugs. Then I would sit next to her in Relief Society and when the class is over, I'd pour whatever is left of her drinks back into her mug so I can bring the covered mug to the kitchen, wash it and dry it and have it ready for next Sunday. While I'm at it, I'd make sure I have a pack of wet ones so I can help her wipe her hands so she doesn't mess up the pews. As far as the coffee and tea. She can drink it, no problem. She's never made the covenant to obey the Word of Wisdom. In any case, we shouldn't judge when somebody needs to eat. If we've brought up the "it would be better if you can hold off on eating" and she says she needs to eat, then that's all we can do. I have none of those cups in my home- I don't buy travelers packs of Wet-ones for myself, why should I put out the expense for someone else? I am on an extremely tight budget. Our Church kitchen is really small.We are a small building.

There's nothing wrong with lime green make-up. Some people like it. <<snip>>The fact of the matter is - just because we don't like how someone looks in their choice of cosmetics shouldn't make us waspishly critical of it. Waspishly??? Really! I could care less if someone wears makeup or not. And if they do, whether it is garish or not. Okay, you're right. She shouldn't be putting make-up on while in the middle of class. I would try to catch her right when she walks into sacrament and ask her if you could help her with her make-up in the restroom since you are really good with it. Anatess, I haven't worn makeup in over 30 years! And even then it was only mascara and powder. Our sacrament is the first of the block- and she comes in late. If it's looking like you might miss the passing of the sacrament, then I'd wait until sacrament service is over and if she still hasn't put on her make-up, I'd offer to help her with it between service and Sunday School. In any case, there are a lot worse things one can do in class besides putting on make-up. . Yes there is, like bringing in open containers of liquids that are NOT water.

<<snip<<

I will even go so far as to say that you are failing this test of Charity. Wow, what a body slam that was.<<snip>>QUOTE]

A few thoughts come to mind:

1) Motes and Beams.

2) It's never my place to tell someone else that they don't belong in Church.Never told her she does not belong in Church, never even thought it. The open non-water liquids do not belong in Church.

3) Church was created for the benefit of man, not the other way around. My understanding is that once the building has been dedicated, it is now to be used in a Respectful manner. Hence, the "Temple" voices used, especially in the chapel.

4) Patience is a virtue.

5) We all suffer from judging others, whether righteously or not.

6) Charity is the Pure Love of Christ.

7) What would Jesus do?

Hi Iggy! Ya know what you are experienceing is just life and we all respond differently. Doling out opinions can be mixed with imperfect filters and judgements which I don't believe you deserve here because it just wouldn't help. I think it's great you've taken a step back to look at the situation and, you've even asked for input here. Thank you

I do believe this is as good an opportunity there is to make a difference, and by what you said several people can be impacted for the better. There are pearls in the responses to your OP and I am rooting for you as you find ways to reach out to this woman. I would share ideas such as visiting her, inviting her over for dinner, giving her rides where ever she may need to go (as your schedule permits of course). Doing this or anything else for her will be most beneficial as you approach Heavenly Father and act with the love of Christ,... and I'm sure you know that. And... (since I am responding to 'what I would do') I'd apologize to the BP. I'd just bet it's not easy making the hard decisions, or the right ones when they're not popular. This would be a humbling experience for me, and what the hec! I've been there before.

Good luck Iggy. Thank You

Like I said to Anatess – we are on a really tight budget, my husbands SS and pension just- repeat- just covers are monthly expenses. Yes, next Sunday I will be apologizing to the BP. I knew last Sunday evening I would be doing that. I want to do it in person and not by email.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Iggy

[Iggy]

I have a different perspective.... though I don't disagree with much of what has been said already.

Our branch just combined with one about 30 min from us. This branch has a lot of very new members that have a lot to learn about the church and they were allowed to create some bad habits in the more dependent branch. One of their their bad habits is eating constantly the entire 3 hrs, including fast sunday, and leaving their trash and crumbs all over the place for others to clean up. Sometimes they even leave and walk next door to the fast food place and bring food back.

For me the internal argument goes something like this....

It's disruptive and irreverent so something should be said.... if you say something it might offend them and they are already struggling having had their branch closed so we don't want to make them feel unwelcome.... but.... why should we keep cleaning up after them and allowing them to be dependent... this goes deeper than food it's about helping them progress in the gospel.... if they can't even go 3 hrs without food how will they ever learn the self discipline required to fast?..... if we don't say something we are robbing them of the blessings of growing in the gospel..... but it's none of my business who does and does not fast, that is up to them to desire to progress.... on the other hand it's really hard to teach my kids to fast if there are ppl behind them smacking and chomping on chips and soda..... good opportunity to teach my kids how to ignore some things?..... but then again what about the members growth opportunities?

And it goes on and on, as you can see I can make a case for either approach. My opinion, someone further up the line of authority needs to do a lesson or announcement to make 2 requests. 1) no food during sacrament meeting. 2) No food in the building on fast Sunday. You don't have to fast but respect those who are by not bringing food in. Once those 2 things can be done without to much fuss then add another request and another until things are where they ought to be. But then I'm not in charge so..... I've shared my opinion and it's turned over to the branch pres. lol

Gwen, thank you so much. I agree. After posting the original thread started here and at two other LDS forums I am on, I realized that I should have suggested a possible solution to the BP rather than let my frustration turned anger get the better of me. After ranting and raving at home (my husband is a saint, he let me fuss, fume and rave without chastising me.)

I came to the realization that I should have suggested to the BP that he should give a lesson &/or announcement regarding the food and drinks. Way too many members have to have water to drink, including myself, during one if not all of the blocks. The water in the fountains are way too COLD- so I bring mine in a rubbermaid drink container. The others have bottles of water with lids or sport tops. She is the only one bringing in non-water liquids in open (non-spill proof) containers. Even the parents don't give their children juice EXCEPT in the kitchen. Vinyl flooring is in the kitchen.

If the woman is hungry or thirsty you might take her to the kitchen where she can keep food and drink in a proper setting. Sit down with her while she is eating. Helping with her make up seems like a good idea. Maybe you could consider it your temporary calling?

At 80 years old she is not going to be there all that long especially since she seems to be showing some signs of dementia. At this time I suspect her being there is a trial to not only you but the rest of your ward in learning how to deal with the elderly in a kind way. It would be great to pass the test so God doesnt have to give you all another one. ^^ :)

After posting my original post, the RS Pres called me regarding something else. I brought up what I said to the BP. She told me that she has personally taken this woman to the kitchen, explained that her drink is to be left there, and that she can 'visit' as needed during any class she is in.

Anne, the majority of the members in my Branch ARE elderly. We only have 11 sisters who have children, three of which their child(ren) are teens. Then the remaing 30 sisters are from 50 to 86. That is all that come on a regular basis. Believe me, we know how to treat the elderly, and we do trreat them well.

It sounds to me like you dislike this woman at least as much as you disapprove of her behavior in church. The Branch President said they're handling it. Let them. Turn your head and try to enjoy church.

I dislike how she disrespects us. By disrespecting our Lord's home, she is disrespecting us. I don't dislike her personally. I see her sitting on the bench next to the post office and I wave at her. Had I time to stop and visit, I would, but my trips to the PO are included in our trips to Dr appointments. If we are late to them, we get cancelled and we still have to pay for an office call. Can Not Afford To Miss Dr Appointments.

Sometimes there are individuals who simply push our buttons and know how to really get us worked up and frustrated. Actually, I think she isn't doing this with malice of forethought. Or any thought, malice or not.

I expect that one of the reasons why this upsets you and makes you so frustrated is because although you know what you would do if she were your mother or your child, she's not and so you have no rights of stewardship. This means while you can give advice to those in charge, you have no authority to enact them.Boy Howdy, me thinks you have come dang close to the underlying reason.

You've done the right thing by bringing your concerns to the priesthood authority. Yes At this point it's in their court and out of your hands.Yes Sometimes you simply have to ask the lord to take away the burden of frustration and grant you grace to endure the less than favorable situation.This is hard for me. You are right.

I've had such experiences in the past and received such aid so I know you can too. It makes a huge difference. So ultimately my advice? Pray for grace =)

Thank you.

Thank you all for your responses. Some I felt were real Body Slammers- some were so close to the mark it was spooky. Others were very helpful.

I want to clarify some things. Our Branch is tiny- granted it is doubled in size because of a boundary change done last April, but we are still tiny. Our town is tiny. Population of 2070. We have one light and that is at the junction of two highways. We have three banks, a Subway and 6 other places to eat. Of those places three serve booze, one is actually a Tavern- so no children are allowed in. There are 9 churches including our Branch.

There is no shelter for the homeless or displaced. There is a soup kitchen of sorts- but it is only for children during the summer. There is no soup kitchen year round for adults too. We don't even have city police. We pay the county to have the Sheriff's Dept. patrol are neck of the woods.

We have approximately 12 empty commercial buildings, and next to the Post Office there are two homes that are recently empty. Renovation work is being done to those homes. We also have one school building that is empty and quickly going to seed, and by the 2013 school year the High School will also be empty, as will the Grade School next to it. All schools have been built on higher ground, well out of the tsunami danger area. As for the middle school- they are asking way too much to lease it or rooms in it. The doors & windows are boarded shut. The people who live next to it, keep watch. For all the empty buildings, there is NO vandalism!

We don't have street people, because there is no place for them to go. They cannot sleep under our bridge because there is no dry land under the bridge. When the tide from the ocean prevents that! They may be in the woods, but we have bears and cougars (Mountain Lions), bobcats and huge raccoons in our woods. It isn't safe after dark. Oh, yeah, our street lights only light up the street- they don't shine up or around. They are more like spot lights.

I am hearing impaired, as is my Husband. We both wear hearing aids – both ears! The PA system is the pits. The microphone is seldom plugged in, and when it is, someone is always going up and fiddling with the volume. Husband and I sit in the fourth row from the front, in the center pew, on the first two seats (we don't have benches, we have padded chairs) on the left. The families with children sit in the far right rows, and mostly behind us. Hearing aids don't really pick up sounds BEHIND you – thus you have to talk to the person's face if you wish them to hear you.

Many, many times during not only Sacrament, but Gospel Doctrine too- I cannot hear enough of what is being said, so I have to "listen" by the Spirit. Yes, we have told the BPresidency about this. Their solution, call my Husband as SS President!

This woman comes in late and almost always sits just in front of me, or either to the right or left of us. What I have decided is that until she ceases to bring in the fluids- I will get up and go to the RS room. Husband is able to totally block her. I don't want to not hear or be there during Sacrament and Gospel Doctrine (by the way, we only have one GD and RS class.- Like I said, we are tiny)

As for the makeup- it was small and petty of me to go into detail about it. Except that the color she wears really shows up on our pastel mauve upholstered chairs! We don't have upholstery cleaner in our closet either. The multipurpose cleaner just makes it worse.

In 2004, we finally got the 3rd phase of our meeting house built. Took 25 years of praying, and work for us, but it finally happened. After the construction and before the dedication we met at the next towns ward so that the rest of our Branch meeting house could be re-carpeted, textured wallpaper professionally cleaned and the painted areas repainted! Prior to the new and final addition to the building, one could not have told how old the carpeting and wall paper was. We took excellent care of our meeting house. There wasn't one stain on any of the walls, or even on the carpet in multi-purpose room, where we had uncounted meals in. We now have a tea stain on the carpet in the Chapel. And several of the new chairs have lime green spots, and black mascara smears.

Martain, you are soo right, I do need to Let This Go. I will find out if there is a room where there is a speaker connected to the Chapel that I can go to and still hear what is going on. During GD I will just change seats so that I am closer to the teacher and not within eyesight of her.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Iggy

[pam]

Perhaps a thought on why she comes to your building instead of ones closer. Perhaps the others have asked her to leave. Maybe she has felt less "harassed" at yours. Could be a lot of reasons.

[Iggy]

Perhaps a thought on why she comes to your building instead of ones closer. Perhaps the others have asked her to leave. Maybe she has felt less "harassed" at yours. Could be a lot of reasons.

That is my thought too- that the others have told her to leave.

[pam]

Which if that is the case is rather sad. I think of my dad who had Alzheimers and he did some pretty crazy things in his last days...if he had been told to leave because he wasn't acting what they considered normal..I would have had a fit.

[Guest alianneL]

Well you did ask.......

I would like to think that I would welcome her, and would love try to love her....even with her flaws and foibles, since that is how I want Christ to love me.

-RM

I totally agree.. try to embrace her perfection.. She's 80 and she's not gonna be here for 40 more years.. well normally.. let her enjoy her life and just be there support her and her faith.

[Carl62]

This puts me in mind of some of the uptight, Pharisaic members who wouldn't even allow Jesus himself to pass his own sacrament simply because he has a beard, long hair, wears sandals, and doesn't wear a white shirt. I think some people need to loosen up those straight jacket strings and start living the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter. So you think if Jesus were in the Sacrament meeting and a little child were to come up to him with a cookie in his hand and had crumbs falling around him that Jesus would tell him he had to eat it outside? Don't think so.

[norah63]

What would I do? Well being from a small town where everybody knows everybody, I'd probably try to find out who this person was. Then like you have choosen to do, I'd probably put a little space between me and them till I had worked it out in my soul. Getting old doesn't have to be the problem, being a senior saint we all know that.

Some posts just judged you, like they thought you did her.

Reap what we sow is hard lesson for me too.

I have been in your shoes a couple of times, in diffrent congregations. Just toughed it out till things changed, as they always do.

Seemed like the men had diffrent ways of seeing this than the ladies did. I learned from that.

Thanks for a post that made me think what I would do.

[Guest]

Agreed, I need to banish the anger- I am frustrated with why the anger, why is her bringing in coffee and tea and the sodas making me so angry? For me, if I know the why, then it is easier to get rid of it, banish it. Change it.

I have none of those cups in my home- I don't buy travelers packs of Wet-ones for myself, why should I put out the expense for someone else? I am on an extremely tight budget. Our Church kitchen is really small.We are a small building.

Waspishly??? Really! I could care less if someone wears makeup or not. And if they do, whether it is garish or not.

Anatess, I haven't worn makeup in over 30 years! And even then it was only mascara and powder. Our sacrament is the first of the block- and she comes in late.

Okay, I'll address these ones.

Iggy, take a deep breath. I'm going to say things here that can EASILY be taken wrongly if you read the post in a negative mood. Here's my intent so we're clear: I am not here to judge you. I am not here to tell you, you're wrong, I'm right, you're a sinner, I'm a saint. I am here to point out what I believe is the problem and what I believe is the solution. Just like that. Super simple as that. The cost of the advice is zero. So, I can't tell you that the advice is worth anything more than zero. But, I'm hoping that from these things I write, you can find the answer to your question of WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

Okay...

1.)

Agreed, I need to banish the anger- I am frustrated with why the anger, why is her bringing in coffee and tea and the sodas making me so angry? For me, if I know the why, then it is easier to get rid of it, banish it. Change it.

You said you want to understand the anger so you can banish it. That's an easy one. I'm the queen of anger. My anger gets so uncontrollable that when I was a kid, I threw a knife at my sister. So, I had to go learn all about anger. Anger, in its simplest form, stems from something that you don't like which you don't have a tolerance for. So, in your position - it could be as simple as the distraction caused by a person you perceive as lacking in respect to the more complicated "she gets to do whatever she wants while I get to toe the line" feelings. Unfortunately, I don't know you at all so I can't help you with identifying where this comes from for you. In my case, my anger can get triggered when I see fingerprints on my fridge... but the reason is not because I'm a clean freak... the reason could be something completely unrelated - like some bully at work tried to make me feel small by calling my nail polish "gaudy", and that somehow subconsciously triggered a relationship to the fingerprint.

You can't banish the anger by just willing it away or burying it deep. Change it - that's more effective. Changing anger is easier when you replace it with Charity. So, as a teen-ager, I get to do a lot of practice in Charity to combat the Anger. No - I don't mean charity as in, giving away all your stuff. I mean Charity as in Charitable thoughts and actions. If the fingerprints made me angry, I replace it with a Charitable thought - I'll go clean the fridge so my husband won't have to do it on Saturday. Then it makes me feel good that I did something really nice and I'm not angry anymore. And, if I realize I'm actually not angry at the fingerprints, I'm angry at the bully at work, then I replace that with a Charitable thought - maybe she's never had a mother who cared for her, so tomorrow, I'll be nice to her, hopefully it will make up for whatever she lost. Those kinds of things.

2.)

I have none of those cups in my home- I don't buy travelers packs of Wet-ones for myself, why should I put out the expense for someone else? I am on an extremely tight budget. Our Church kitchen is really small.We are a small building.

About the covered mugs and your lack of extra money. That wasn't the point of the exercise. The point was - instead of getting mad at something somebody does - help by finding ways to solve the problem in Charitable ways. If your mind and heart was placed such that you want to help out the old lady instead of getting mad at her, these would be the things that would go through your mind... "Everybody already knows the issue but she is still bringing drinks, what can I do to help? Oh, a covered mug would help with this problem... oh wait, I don't have money to buy one... hey, maybe the branch president has one... or there's got to be somebody in RS that has one... or I have 25 cents here I can donate to the cause, maybe I can gather 25 cents from everybody else...".

Saying "Why should I buy somebody a mug when I myself don't have one?" is the "angry" kind of response. You have to learn to look outwards instead of inwards. No matter how poor somebody is, there's always ways he can help somebody else - even the rich folks. It's like the story of the elephant and the mouse.

3.)

Waspishly??? Really! I could care less if someone wears makeup or not. And if they do, whether it is garish or not.

English is my 3rd language. Waspishly - as I was taught it meant - means Irritatedly, or with Annoyance. The dictionary does not tell me that it is an insulting word. I read your opening post and it is very clear to me that your comment about her make-up was given with quite a bit of annoyance or irritation... hence waspish. And it was obvious, unless I misunderstood you, that you care very much if someone wears makeup or not especially if it is garish because you mentioned it in your opening post with complete detail of make-up color in a way that I interpreted as annoyance or irritation. Because, if it didn't matter, saying "she puts on her make-up in RS" would have sufficed without painting a picture of the old lady with orange eye shadow... or was it orange hair...

4.)

Anatess, I haven't worn makeup in over 30 years! And even then it was only mascara and powder. Our sacrament is the first of the block- and she comes in late.

Again, this was not the point of the exercise. The point of the exercise was to Change your Anger into Charity. This is the 2nd time that you took some advice that was given "in spirit" and turned it inwards (as something about you instead of about the old lady) instead of an example of an action you can do to help the lady to ease the distraction she is causing.

Okay, listen... I think it's a personality trait or something that makes some people automatically say the glass is half-empty whereas some people say the glass is half-full. Usually, the ones who say the glass is half-empty instinctively gives you every possible reason why they can't do something. The ones who say the glass is half-full usually will find every possible reason why they CAN do something. For example, in my ward, there's Sister S. and there's Sister W. If I ask Sister S if she can substitute for me in teaching my class - she always says, "No. I don't think I can but I'll call on Sunday morning if I can do it". But, if I ask Sister W if she can substitute she always says, "Sure. I'm not sure if I can do it, but I'll make sure somebody is going to teach that class on Sunday, don't worry about it.". And sure enough, Sister W may not be teaching the class, but she's called every single person she knows to find somebody to teach the class if she can't do it herself. Nothing against Sister S, of course. I mean, it's just her style of responding to a need.

The feeling I get from your responses is that you're like Sister S. The problem here is, you don't want to be Sister W., but you are the one getting upset over the problem. It almost seems like you want the Branch pres or the RS pres to just... I don't know... kick her out or something, because obviously, we can't force the old lady to do what we want her to do. I don't know. I still think you need to really look at Charity as the solution to your problem with the old lady - in thoughts, words, and deed.

Good luck and hope everything turns out for the better soon.

Edited February 17, 2012 by anatess

[phreed]

There's always the best question to ask yourself:

WHAT WOULD JESUS DO ... in this circumstance? I know he wouldn't be upset or angry,

and I'm sure he overlooked a lot of things in his time here upon this earth ... because of his unconditional love.

You've told her that food and drink aren't appropriate ... so she knows. I think the best way to handle

it - is to let her make the changes ... and that's by loving her, setting an example and befriending her

so she feels welcome and wanted.

Edited February 17, 2012 by phreed

[Guest]

Holding on to the "righteous" indignation of a Pharisee is so much easier than developing the charity of a disciple.