Church attitude towards Gays.

[Traveler]

I will go out on a limb here and perhaps offend everyone. I do not believe that perfect means without flaw. We all have flaws - in fact mortality is a flaw.

I believe that it is possible that there are even flaws in G-d, as we all like to define flaws. And this is where I think I may offend almost everyone. That is because I believe we can have flaws and repent. Since there is no difference in eternity between those that repent of a flaw and those that perhaps never had the flaw - thus I believe that we are like G-d through repentance. That repentance is the only means by which we can become like G-d. That repentance is part of being complete and necessary for eternal perfection.

I believe the concept of perfect is lost because we make up concepts and ideas about “being perfect” and never having flaws. That is not any part of what G-d tells us in his gospel concerning his love and mercy. Therefore believe in repentance. Repentance is the very power of G-d unto perfection and a core as well as very necessary element in the plan of salvation. I believe that G-d himself so believes and himself follows and exercises repentance (including the forsaking of sin) that he teaches it unto us that we may be like him.

The Traveler

[james12]

I think you are 180 degrees misinterpreting those statements. If anything, those statements are supporting what I am saying and especially in Matthew 10. The statements you provided are not speaking of "where "we are going but the "how" to get there. "How" we get there is through individual and independent effort. It is an expression of independent and individual effort, to give up our individual self to become more like Christ. But paradoxically, that is not binding or limiting, it provides more freedom.

So you agree that in order to become more like Christ we must exercise individual and independent effort. At what point then does this individual effort end? Do we in a supreme act of individuality become a mere copy of another person? Parish the thought! We become more ourselves. With more freedom to do and to be. Let me give a bit more from Joseph F. Smith:

Our being united does not destroy our individuality at all. We can be just as strong in our individuality when united in regard to the purposes and designs of the Almighty, as we can possibly be when in opposition to these purposes and designs, and to our brethren who are united in regard to the things of God. Indeed I think it evinces a stronger characteristic of individuality for men and women to bring themselves into harmony and union with the purposes of the Almighty than to be divided against them or separate from them. (JD vol 25, p 245, italics added)

Now the above quote brings up the contrast so lets consider the other extreme. What of those individuals who are being driven by appetite and passion? As they continue down the path are they more themselves? Is individuality to be found by following Satan? Absolutely not! There will is being subsumed, and their ability to choose is taken away. Despite claims heard the world over, sameness reigns supreme under Satan's plan.

My time is up. Gotta go...

[Seminarysnoozer]

So you agree that in order to become more like Christ we must exercise individual and independent effort. At what point then does this individual effort end? Do we in a supreme act of individuality become a mere copy of another person? Parish the thought! We become more ourselves. With more freedom to do and to be. Let me give a bit more from Joseph F. Smith:

Now the above quote brings up the contrast so lets consider the other extreme. What of those individuals who are being driven by appetite and passion? As they continue down the path are they more themselves? Is individuality to be found by following Satan? Absolutely not! There will is being subsumed, and their ability to choose is taken away. Despite claims heard the world over, sameness reigns supreme under Satan's plan.

My time is up. Gotta go...

I never spoke of individual effort ending. Here, the quote given is to dissuade people from believing that we meld into one being in the next life. I don't believe that. You know that I don't believe that (I am LDS after all). With the Joseph F. Smith quote, he is talking about the need to remain united here in this life despite our differences, that we can still be united even though we have the corruption of differences in us. Please don't take that out of context. This is not what I have been talking about and you know that (at least I have said that many times). He even says in the quote given that we can equally be in opposition to the plan with these differences. "...as we can possibly be when in opposition to these purposes and designs."

Satan's plan was a lie. It was not true. Satan's plan does not exist in reality. It was a trick to think that it could be given without effort. It appealed to souls because that is what they wanted. That is what we wanted, to be like our Heavenly Father. If it was not what those souls wanted it wouldn't have appealed to them at all and nobody would have discussed the issue if it was so appalling. The destination of the two plans presented were the same, its just that the one plan was a lie and couldn't work and still doesn't work. It is only through individual effort that we can get there, this is the plan that you and I chose, to have a chance to prove that we will do the things Our Father in Heaven asks us to do. Why? So, we can be like Him some day.

The evil of Satan's plan was not sameness, even if that is true, which I have never really heard it described that way. The evil of the plan is that Satan thought he could do it without giving glory to God and could force it without agency. He thought he could do it in his own way and under his own power. He was trying to forge his individual path instead of following a straight and narrow pathway that doesn't change over the eternities. Just like it is here in this world, Satan wants people to think that their own desires should rule over the will of God. Satan wants people to think "I was born this way, So, I should follow that, then I can claim all glory for myself because I did it my way."

The correct plan is to CHOOSE to follow the will of God. By doing so we make ourselves more Christ like in every way. We CHOOSE to follow the admonition of Paul and the admonition of King Benjamin and the admonition of Joseph Smith, we hope ALL things, we seek after all things that are virtuous, lovely or of good report. If we are successful in obtaining ALL those things (which won't happen in this life) then we will not look or act much differently from each other, infinitesimally so that the ultimate achievement is to be exactly like our Heavenly Parents. This is the plan and the purpose that we all signed up for. There are many, if not most, that will not make it that far because along the way they will get hung up on worldly possessions (including the body) that they start to claim as their own and as if they deserve to have those things, including certain traits and characteristics. It is based in where one's heart is.

Please, name one trait, you think, a person that makes it into the Celestial Kingdom would have that would be something we could say that our Heavenly Parents do not have. I think if you ponder that, you will answer that there is no such trait that is praiseworthy that our Heavenly Parents do not have that would make another stand out as different than them if they find themselves in the Celestial Kingdom at the highest level. Those at lower levels have deficiencies of those traits and therefore are different.

I have never argued the idea of agency, in fact, I am stressing it's importance that we choose the right path. We should choose the path that keeps our eye focused on the FULL glory of God, not partial, less valuable glory.

[annewandering]

I know for a fact I am not going to have a beard. Does that make me less than God? I can have babies and I dont think God can. We are going to be different. I want to be with my husband forever. I know God does not, in the same way.

I do not believe we all will have the same abilities or we might as well do the singing and playing harps for eternity.

[Windseeker]

“There are no real personalities apart from God. Until you have given up your self to Him you will not have a real self. Sameness is to be found most among the most 'natural' men, not among those who surrender to Christ. How monotonously alike all the great tyrants and conquerers have been; how gloriously different are the saints.

But there must be a real giving up of the self. You must throw it away 'blindly' so to speak. Christ will indeed give you a real personality; but you must not go to Him for the sake of that. As long as your own personality is what you are bothering about you are not going to Him at all. The very first step is to try to forget about the self altogether. Your real, new self (which is Christ's and also yours, and yours just because it is His) will not come as long as you are looking for it. It will come when you are looking for Him...Keep back nothing. Nothing that you have not given away will be really yours. Nothing in you that has not died will ever be raised from the dead. Look for yourself, and you will find in the long run only hatred, loneliness, despair, rage, ruin, and decay. But look for Christ, and you will find Him, and with Him everything else thrown in.”

― C.S. Lewis

I've posted this quote before and I think it perhaps bridges the gap in what S.Snoozer is saying and what others are saying.

What is perfection? I like to think that there is room in perfection for personality. What is perfection in the Arts? I find perfection in many peices of music yet they are all different in sound and mood.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I know for a fact I am not going to have a beard. Does that make me less than God? I can have babies and I dont think God can. We are going to be different. I want to be with my husband forever. I know God does not, in the same way.

I do not believe we all will have the same abilities or we might as well do the singing and playing harps for eternity.

Come on, really? This is why, several times I said parents and also included Heavenly Mother. This is also why I included what God had originally created both male and female, Adam and Eve. This was already accounted for in our discussion. That is just being silly. But, I would ask yourself, Does God know what it is like to have a baby, not just know about it but what it feels like etc.? Or, do you think He doesn't know that?

We will not all have the same abilities .... not all will make it to the highest level. You don't have to worry about that. I would just say, don't devalue yourself to something less than the fullness, to some subset of all that our Heavenly Father has to offer. What is the value in setting our goals less than the fullness?

Luke 14: " 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and acounteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

In other words, why set out on this course if you don't intend on going all the way? We all wanted to go all the way before this life began, we all wanted to be like our Heavenly Parents but to do that requires forsaking all that you have, even your own life and everything that goes with it. We are unprofitable servants, why should we claim it as our own?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I will go out on a limb here and perhaps offend everyone. I do not believe that perfect means without flaw. We all have flaws - in fact mortality is a flaw.

I believe that it is possible that there are even flaws in G-d, as we all like to define flaws. And this is where I think I may offend almost everyone. That is because I believe we can have flaws and repent. Since there is no difference in eternity between those that repent of a flaw and those that perhaps never had the flaw - thus I believe that we are like G-d through repentance. That repentance is the only means by which we can become like G-d. That repentance is part of being complete and necessary for eternal perfection.

I believe the concept of perfect is lost because we make up concepts and ideas about “being perfect” and never having flaws. That is not any part of what G-d tells us in his gospel concerning his love and mercy. Therefore believe in repentance. Repentance is the very power of G-d unto perfection and a core as well as very necessary element in the plan of salvation. I believe that G-d himself so believes and himself follows and exercises repentance (including the forsaking of sin) that he teaches it unto us that we may be like him.

The Traveler

The concept of perfect is only lost when people look away from Christ' example, to try to suggest that it is something other than that. We don't need any other beacon of perfection. The target doesn't evolve over time to fit the needs of a changing carnal people. It should be the same goal for every person as it was before we entered this world. There are not multiple goals and patterns. Every metaphor about this path suggests singleness not multiples, the iron rod, the straight and narrow, etc.

(I don't believe in a God that can err and remain being God. D&C 88: " 17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.

18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;

19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;

20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified." Their bodies are sanctified (freed from sin) forever and ever and Satan and his followers are cast out forever. Those people will come unto His rest, not from labors but from wrestling with sin.)

[Traveler]

The concept of perfect is only lost when people look away from Christ' example, to try to suggest that it is something other than that. We don't need any other beacon of perfection. The target doesn't evolve over time to fit the needs of a changing carnal people. It should be the same goal for every person as it was before we entered this world. There are not multiple goals and patterns. Every metaphor about this path suggests singleness not multiples, the iron rod, the straight and narrow, etc.

(I don't believe in a God that can err and remain being God. D&C 88: " 17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.

18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;

19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;

20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified." Their bodies are sanctified (freed from sin) forever and ever and Satan and his followers are cast out forever. Those people will come unto His rest, not from labors but from wrestling with sin.)

Many think they are following (looking to) Christ but in reality are not (Jesus even taught this principle (Matt 7:22). How do you know that your concept is better than others that are different? or do you go on faith only?

Jesus taught that there is a very logical and testable method to know if and when your faith or concepts of Jesus are better than those that different (see John 15:10).

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Many think they are following (looking to) Christ but in reality are not (Jesus even taught this principle (Matt 7:22). How do you know that your concept is better than others that are different? or do you go on faith only?

Jesus taught that there is a very logical and testable method to know if and when your faith or concepts of Jesus are better than those that different (see John 15:10).

The Traveler

Yes! I agree. And the verse right before it says clearly that we have to do the will of the Father, not our own individually determined path.

Of course faith is needed and some knowledge, but we will not be judged on knowledge but the desire of the heart.

(was this supposed to be on the other thread on faith?)

[annewandering]

OK you want to give up yourself in ways that I dont believe God ever wanted. Frankly it is getting annoying that you have decided that if we dont agree then we will be happier in a lesser level of heaven. We will not become the ideal of being clones of God. Yes I am willing to give all but I dont think God is going to destroy what makes me me then give me back a perfected clone of Himself. What would be the point? We are pretty close to cloning here so I imagine if God WANTED to, He could just make clones the easier way but He didnt. Why was that? Was it possibly because he loved each of us for our differences as well as our potential to be perfect?

What I dont understand is why you think unique or individual are carnal signs of evil.

I sincerely hope we are talking about two different things because what you sound like you are talking about is revolting to me.

Edited May 15, 2012 by annewandering

[Traveler]

Yes! I agree. And the verse right before it says clearly that we have to do the will of the Father, not our own individually determined path.

Of course faith is needed and some knowledge, but we will not be judged on knowledge but the desire of the heart.

(was this supposed to be on the other thread on faith?)

Perhaps all the concepts we express in threads over lap. As to desire of the heart - that to me is too broad and can mean two many things. In particular the rationalization that something else was intended or thought to be intended.

I think of the expression of faith as discipline. If a person lacks discipline they lack faith. It is interesting to me that Jesus called his followers disciples - which has the same root meaning as discipline. The idea that Jesus is the Master implies then that as disciples we use the same principles to discipline ourselves as did he. The key to faith, as I see it is not some undefined desire of one's heart - but the very precise and logical acts of discipline.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

OK you want to give up yourself in ways that I dont believe God ever wanted. Frankly it is getting annoying that you have decided that if we dont agree then we will be happier in a lesser level of heaven. We will not become the ideal of being clones of God. Yes I am willing to give all but I dont think God is going to destroy what makes me me then give me back a perfected clone of Himself. What would be the point? We are pretty close to cloning here so I imagine if God WANTED to, He could just make clones the easier way but He didnt. Why was that? Was it possibly because he loved each of us for our differences as well as our potential to be perfect?

What I dont understand is why you think unique or individual are carnal signs of evil.

I sincerely hope we are talking about two different things because what you sound like you are talking about is revolting to me.

He wont destroy what makes you you. But what is that? It certainly isn't the exact set of temporary fallen traits that you have here in the form of circuits in the brain that drive certain passions, likes and dislikes, sexual drives, survival behaviors, and all other things that we could call stewardship. I think you would agree that a person born with Down Syndrome does not have a body that reflects who they really are. What about a person that has major depression, is that who they really are? Or a person that has bipolar disorder and is promiscuous, is that who they really are? Or the person that has a stroke involving the anterior temporal lobes and is hypersexual, is that who they really are?

You might say, 'well those are certain diseases, that is different'. Let me ask you then, which one of our bodies is perfect, is not corrupted in some way? Which one has not fallen from the way God originally created it in Adam and Eve? (Outside of the second Adam) Is that the set of what you think is you that you want to hold on to? Why? That is not really you. If one thinks this set of traits is really them, then every time that person does something great in this world, I would suspect they would say to themselves "I did this" as opposed to "Thank you God for letting me have this experience, for giving me this blessing of the body to do this thing, for giving me this talent, or this gift of the spirit, glory to God." The later is to be contrite, to be humble. If our eye is single to the glory of God, we don't claim any of this for our self, it is a gift, it is a stewardship (temporary control), and we maintain the proper perspective of humility. We are unprofitable servants and yet you want to claim it as your own? Yes, this attitude is a prideful and therefore evil thing. Am I perfect in that regard, of course not. Is anyone else, no, except our savior. He said many times, in essence, don't give thanks to me, thank your Father in Heaven, I am not good, there is only one who is good.

For the many reasons that have been posted already and discussed, God could not force us to become like Him. We have to choose it. I have already stated that I believe agency is necessary in this process. To choose it though requires wanting it. If a person wants to be something less than our Heavenly Parents they have every right to choose that. I am not wishing that agency be taken away and God force this upon us. It can't be done that way. We have to really want it and only in this setting where we are faced with deceitful influences can we have the opportunity to show our true nature, what we really want. We then can appreciate and use the things that we inherit from our parents in it's proper way. If we are not good stewards here though, we won't be stewards over bigger things.

Again, I think you misunderstand what I am saying about uniqueness. I have never said that being unique is evil. I have been talking about the desires of one's heart. Being unique is no more evil than having money or being a learned person. But we know the love for things of this world that eventually turn to dust, even intelligence of man, is evil if it is not done with an eye single to the glory of God.

Personally, I hope to become just like my Heavenly Mother and inherit all that my Father has.

Btw, when you see "identical" twins (even though they are not exactly identical because there are mutations of the genes that keep them from being identical 100%) is that appalling to you?

[annewandering]

Identical twins dont have the same soul.

Why does being unique prevent us from giving all glory to God? He gave us a spirit body for our intelligence. He gave us the opportunity to be tested and to gain a physical body. He has given us so much to provide us with a chance to be LIKE Him. Everything we have, except for our core intelligence, is from His love of us. We would be ungrateful clods to not give Him the glory He deserves.

[circusboy01]

He wont destroy what makes you you. But what is that? It certainly isn't the exact set of temporary fallen traits that you have here in the form of circuits in the brain that drive certain passions, likes and dislikes, sexual drives, survival behaviors, and all other things that we could call stewardship. I think you would agree that a person born with Down Syndrome does not have a body that reflects who they really are. What about a person that has major depression, is that who they really are? Or a person that has bipolar disorder and is promiscuous, is that who they really are? Or the person that has a stroke involving the anterior temporal lobes and is hypersexual, is that who they really are?

You might say, 'well those are certain diseases, that is different'. Let me ask you then, which one of our bodies is perfect, is not corrupted in some way? Which one has not fallen from the way God originally created it in Adam and Eve? (Outside of the second Adam) Is that the set of what you think is you that you want to hold on to? Why? That is not really you. If one thinks this set of traits is really them, then every time that person does something great in this world, I would suspect they would say to themselves "I did this" as opposed to "Thank you God for letting me have this experience, for giving me this blessing of the body to do this thing, for giving me this talent, or this gift of the spirit, glory to God." The later is to be contrite, to be humble. If our eye is single to the glory of God, we don't claim any of this for our self, it is a gift, it is a stewardship (temporary control), and we maintain the proper perspective of humility. We are unprofitable servants and yet you want to claim it as your own? Yes, this attitude is a prideful and therefore evil thing. Am I perfect in that regard, of course not. Is anyone else, no, except our savior. He said many times, in essence, don't give thanks to me, thank your Father in Heaven, I am not good, there is only one who is good.

For the many reasons that have been posted already and discussed, God could not force us to become like Him. We have to choose it. I have already stated that I believe agency is necessary in this process. To choose it though requires wanting it. If a person wants to be something less than our Heavenly Parents they have every right to choose that. I am not wishing that agency be taken away and God force this upon us. It can't be done that way. We have to really want it and only in this setting where we are faced with deceitful influences can we have the opportunity to show our true nature, what we really want. We then can appreciate and use the things that we inherit from our parents in it's proper way. If we are not good stewards here though, we won't be stewards over bigger things.

Again, I think you misunderstand what I am saying about uniqueness. I have never said that being unique is evil. I have been talking about the desires of one's heart. Being unique is no more evil than having money or being a learned person. But we know the love for things of this world that eventually turn to dust, even intelligence of man, is evil if it is not done with an eye single to the glory of God.

Personally, I hope to become just like my Heavenly Mother and inherit all that my Father has.

Btw, when you see "identical" twins (even though they are not exactly identical because there are mutations of the genes that keep them from being identical 100%) is that appalling to you?

( outside the second Adam) ????

[annewandering]

The second Adam is apparently Jesus. The first from the dust and the second from the heavens which makes no sense to me lol but that is what I am reading.

Adam, the Second - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology Online

Edited May 16, 2012 by annewandering

[james12]

I never spoke of individual effort ending...

It is only through individual effort that we can get there, this is the plan that you and I chose, to have a chance to prove that we will do the things Our Father in Heaven asks us to do. Why? So, we can be like Him some day.

The correct plan is to CHOOSE to follow the will of God. By doing so we make ourselves more Christ like in every way...

Seminary, Perhaps you have missed my point... You agree that individual independent effort is required to become like Christ. Yet you seem to disagree that there is some individuality that remains if someone reaches perfection. (You may want to clarify this point since you wrote on a different post, "He wont destroy what makes you you."). At any rate, to carry the thought to the end - since the beginning effort does not match the end result do you conclude that at some point along the path individual effort ends and complete unity begins?

My question then becomes, where do these two apparently conflicting states intersect? Where does individuality end and complete oneness begin? Additionally, if we must put forth this extreme effort to become like Christ, why at some point would all the work be wiped away?

Now, perhaps I have misunderstood you. If you agree that something of self remains what is it?

Please, name one trait, you think, a person that makes it into the Celestial Kingdom would have that would be something we could say that our Heavenly Parents do not have. I think if you ponder that, you will answer that there is no such trait that is praiseworthy that our Heavenly Parents do not have that would make another stand out as different than them if they find themselves in the Celestial Kingdom at the highest level. Those at lower levels have deficiencies of those traits and therefore are different.

I have never argued the idea of agency, in fact, I am stressing it's importance that we choose the right path. We should choose the path that keeps our eye focused on the FULL glory of God, not partial, less valuable glory.

I agree that one who has reached perfection will posses the same attributes as Christ. However, I do not believe that our entire personality boils down to these attributes (ie. knowledge, mercy, justice, etc.) At any given moment even a perfect person may make choices that do not revolve around morality. Because such choices remain a person is free to choose. Elder Uchtdorf talks about God being the most creative being in the universe. Can he not create as He will? Can he not choose what he will do? If you say "yes" then I believe you have agreed to individual choice.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Identical twins dont have the same soul.

Why does being unique prevent us from giving all glory to God? He gave us a spirit body for our intelligence. He gave us the opportunity to be tested and to gain a physical body. He has given us so much to provide us with a chance to be LIKE Him. Everything we have, except for our core intelligence, is from His love of us. We would be ungrateful clods to not give Him the glory He deserves.

The process and the end are different. I don't know if I can say it any better than what I have. You keep going back to the process as if that is the end. While, I am talking about the purpose, the goal. Are we in a state of Celestial glory right now? Have we reached our goal? AND you keep using the term "being" when I am talking about the desire. If we were judged on what we are as opposed to what is in our heart how could we ever get out of a fallen state? We are judged by what is in our heart, represented, in part, by what we do with the situation and stewardship given here.

Being unique doesn't prevent us from giving all glory to God but it does prevent us from giving all the glory we could obtain to God. Until we reach a state of exaltation, we have not reached our potential and in a lower state such as that we can't do what we could do when we reach exaltation. If that were not so, again, why strive to reach that state? If we were perfect in our pre-mortal different levels of valiant natures, why move on from there? Obviously, we are striving to head somewhere, our current state is not the destination as much as you want it to be. If we don't move closer to being like our Heavenly Father then there is no refinement process, we remain equidistant from each other and from Him. There are only 3 choices really, either we remain equidistant in terms of our different traits and nature, or we grow farther apart, or we become more similar. I don't comprehend the plan of remaining equidistant from God in terms of our traits and being, that to me seems like no plan at all, no growth, no progression.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminary, Perhaps you have missed my point... You agree that individual independent effort is required to become like Christ. Yet you seem to disagree that there is some individuality that remains if someone reaches perfection. (You may want to clarify this point since you wrote on a different post, "He wont destroy what makes you you."). At any rate, to carry the thought to the end - since the beginning effort does not match the end result do you conclude that at some point along the path individual effort ends and complete unity begins?

My question then becomes, where do these two apparently conflicting states intersect? Where does individuality end and complete oneness begin? Additionally, if we must put forth this extreme effort to become like Christ, why at some point would all the work be wiped away?

Now, perhaps I have misunderstood you. If you agree that something of self remains what is it?

I agree that one who has reached perfection will posses the same attributes as Christ. However, I do not believe that our entire personality boils down to these attributes (ie. knowledge, mercy, justice, etc.) At any given moment even a perfect person may make choices that do not revolve around morality. Because such choices remain a person is free to choose. Elder Uchtdorf talks about God being the most creative being in the universe. Can he not create as He will? Can he not choose what he will do? If you say "yes" then I believe you have agreed to individual choice.

You are right, maybe I am missing your point. Maybe because there are some terms that I think are interpreted differently - see, this is what we get from being in a corrupted, fallen state.

I think I am able to distinguish "personal effort" from the words "individual effort" that you are interpreting as "individuality". When Christ said, in essence, when you see me you see the Father, what was He talking about? I believe He was saying, 'everything I do is exactly what the Father would do if He were to do it Himself.' He did what the Father would do in that situation even though the individual effort or the personal effort was Jesus Christ. Heavenly Father wasn't acting like a puppeteer, forcing Christ to act a certain way. Christ was acting in individual effort but doing exactly what our Heavenly Father would do because they have the same character, the same traits. Is there anything Christ did that the Father wouldn't have done? What individual flare did Christ show that makes it indistinguishable from what God would have done if God were in the same exact situation?

Likewise, if we are fortunate enough to make it to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom, I am not saying that we will be like puppets on puppet strings to follow the will of God like a robot or a computer programed to do so, we will still act under personal effort but the personal effort would not be unique to us, it would be exactly what God the Father would do in any particular situation as if He were doing it Himself, it would be done in the same exact way.

To me the term "individuality" could also represent doing things in such a way as to distinguish from someone else. Please explain why, at the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom, those people would want to do something that would distinguish themselves from what God the Father would do in any particular situation? What would be the purpose in that?

God is the most creative because He created everything. It is kind of hard to be more creative than that. But here is the thing to keep in mind, He is the same as He has always been. Is there anything in the future that He will create that He hasn't already created or done in that way in the past? To me, that is the definition of having all power, the same power we all can inherit at that highest level. We too can be able to say that we have created all by inheriting His glory. For those that inherit all, what unique thing that has never been done before or has never been created might possibly "one up" God?

[annewandering]

ahhhh now a light is dimly seen. I think. You are thinking in terms of actions and I am thinking in terms of being. We will not BE the same person as God but our ACTIONS will be the same as God because our actions will mirror God because He is perfect and we will be perfect the same as He is.

[Seminarysnoozer]

ahhhh now a light is dimly seen. I think. You are thinking in terms of actions and I am thinking in terms of being. We will not BE the same person as God but our ACTIONS will be the same as God because our actions will mirror God because He is perfect and we will be perfect the same as He is.

Yes! Thank you! I love you!

Sorry that I am not very good in explaining myself. Maybe that is because by me talking it through I am understanding my own thoughts better as well. That is the beauty of this forum. As stubborn as I am, there have been many times that I have changed my view of things.

Now that I have hijacked this thread to the farthest reaches, let me pull back a little. I think the reason this topic might be seen as related to the original post is that I think it is good for everyone, no matter what challenges we face in life that our current condition is temporary. For everyone, our goal is much higher than we could possibly reach on our own and while in this life. We are not expected to reach our goal while here. That doesn't mean that we have to lower our sights to something less than what we are valued to be, no matter what the issue we face here. Even Paul was okay with living with a thorn in the flesh and Nephi was perfectly fine with not knowing all. Those things don't have to make us feel like we have to settle with the small stewardship we are given here as if this is it. We do these small things to be worthy of greater stewardship which will make us much different from our fallen state.

Don't tell my husband this but when I was young I had a crush on Billy Idol. Now, at my age, I look back and can barely admit that was true, what was I thinking? My parents telling me I couldn't go to his concert was even more reason to have a crush on him at the time. But, as I realize who he was and as I matured and understood better where these emotions were coming from, of course that isn't something I really want to pursue. (not that I really had a shot at him anyways) But, I put my focus on worthy LDS men, and my happiness is better for it.

I think in the end, when we look back at this life, we will realize how primitive our emotions and thought patterns really are. We will see how fallen we really are here. My desire is not for the conditions we find here but for a higher place that is exemplified by Jesus Christ. "I was born this way" or "God made me this way" is the diversion off the higher goal, even if it is true that we have certain genetic predispositions, we all do.

Elder Bednar said (October 23, 2001); "The grand objective of the Savior’s gospel was summarized succinctly by President David O. McKay (1873–1970): “The purpose of the gospel is … to make bad men good and good men better, and to change human nature.”1 Thus, the journey of mortality is to progress from bad to good to better and to experience the mighty change of heart—to have our fallen natures changed (see Mosiah 5:2).

The Book of Mormon is our handbook of instructions as we travel the pathway from bad to good to better and strive to have our hearts changed. King Benjamin teaches about the journey of mortality and the role of the Atonement in navigating successfully that journey: “For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord” (Mosiah 3:19; emphasis added).

I draw your attention to two specific phrases. First—“putteth off the natural man.” The journey from bad to good is the process of putting off the natural man or the natural woman in each of us. In mortality we all are tempted by the flesh. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. But we can increase our capacity to overcome the desires of the flesh and temptations “through the atonement of Christ.” When we make mistakes, as we transgress and sin, we can repent and become clean through the redeeming power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ."

Edited May 16, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[Traveler]

I started another thread because of questions here – in essence – what is our individuality? I suggested there that if we indeed do understand what we are as an individual we will be quite humbled by that experience. The reason is that we will discover we define ourselves mostly by those eternal things that have effect upon us – or in other terms – things to which we are attracted.

The concept of bondage and freedom is how we react to our attractions. Through our reactions we begin to weave a tapestry. For example if we sit at a piano and simply goof-off (because that seems more fun and more of an expression of “freedom”) and hit keys in ignorance we will weave a tapestry of ignorance that will define us or manifest our inabilities, lack of skills and bondage which defines what sounds we produce at a piano. But if we forgo the attraction to simply goof-off and discipline ourselves – over and over again with precise efforts to acquire specific skills we will weave a very different tapestry of skills and freedoms in creating sounds that will define us. Thus we either forge chains of bondage and ignorance or cut a path to freedom, liberty, skills and capabilities.

To clarify - we weave a tapestry of bondage to that which we think we are attracted or we become masters of our circumstance imposing our will through discipline; which at the start was not so attractive as that which would bring bondage. One being a bondage defining what we are and can become - the other being freedom through skill and effort to act and not be acted upon.

The understanding and intelligence of the LDS Church is to teach and train those that would be free to act and to break away from the bondage of being acted upon.

The Traveler

Edited May 18, 2012 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I started another thread because of questions here – in essence – what is our individuality? I suggested there that if we indeed do understand what we are as an individual we will be quite humbled by that experience. The reason is that we will discover we define ourselves mostly by those eternal things that have effect upon us – or in other terms – things to which we are attracted.

The concept of bondage and freedom is how we react to our attractions. Through our reactions we begin to weave a tapestry. For example if we sit at a piano and simply goof-off (because that seems more fun and more of an expression of “freedom”) and hit keys in ignorance we will weave a tapestry of ignorance that will define us or manifest our inabilities, lack of skills and bondage which defines what sounds we produce at a piano. But if we forgo the attraction to simply goof-off and discipline ourselves – over and over again with precise efforts to acquire specific skills we will weave a very different tapestry of skills and freedoms in creating sounds that will define us. Thus we either forge chains of bondage and ignorance or cut a path to freedom, liberty, skills and capabilities.

To clarify - we weave a tapestry of bondage to that which we think we are attracted or we become masters of our circumstance imposing our will through discipline; which at the start was not so attractive as that which would bring bondage. One being a bondage defining what we are and can become - the other being freedom through skill and effort to act and not be acted upon.

The understanding and intelligence of the LDS Church is to teach and train those that would be free to act and to break away from the bondage of being acted upon.

The Traveler

Thanks, I agree. I would say that also has to do with purpose and how strong our resolve is towards that purpose. This is why I think the more that we have our 'wills' aligned with God's, the more similar we act and our traits, our likes and dislikes etc. start to align.

It reminds me of my converting my husband from a Football fan to a Soccer fan. He was all about Football when I met him and since I played soccer in High School and at a college level, I kept my passion for that sport. I started taking him to the local college games where I played previously (many a decade ago) and now he keeps track of their schedule and their rankings etc. more than I ever had . He still is a Football fan, actually, but I liken that to what happens when there are similar purposes and goals, we start to act more similar. In other words, with an eye single to the glory of God, we become more like God. I think this is similar to what you are saying.

[Traveler]

Thanks, I agree. I would say that also has to do with purpose and how strong our resolve is towards that purpose. This is why I think the more that we have our 'wills' aligned with God's, the more similar we act and our traits, our likes and dislikes etc. start to align.

It reminds me of my converting my husband from a Football fan to a Soccer fan. He was all about Football when I met him and since I played soccer in High School and at a college level, I kept my passion for that sport. I started taking him to the local college games where I played previously (many a decade ago) and now he keeps track of their schedule and their rankings etc. more than I ever had . He still is a Football fan, actually, but I liken that to what happens when there are similar purposes and goals, we start to act more similar. In other words, with an eye single to the glory of God, we become more like God. I think this is similar to what you are saying.

I think you understand my point - and so often my expressions are so poorly stated that they cannot be understood - my fault. I like your example because it required discipline by your husband to step outside of his "attraction" to acquire new skills and knowledge.

I might add to your example the discipline of mathematics in order to compare our relationships with G-d. As a master our teacher of mathematics shows us how to use the discipline of mathematics. As we learn these principles and apply them we begin to solve problem and "see" things that we could not see before but are things our master teacher sees understands - and so we become more like our master teacher of mathematics by applying the discipline of mathematics. Not because our master teacher was borne such a way any more than we were but because they like we - made an intelligent choice to master it.

The Traveler

[carlimac]

I'll post this here, too, (besides a thread of it's own) so it might get noticed. I thought with all the discussions on this topic that there would be more interest but maybe we're all just tired of talking about it. Anyway, this is the guy I'm always referring to. I wish them the best, not only for them but also for the church because if he walks away from this marriage and gives in to his SSA it will reflect so badly on everything he stands for! His books are about the atonement and how it helps to deal with this challenge. I wouldn't want to be in the fishbowl they're in. That alone would put more pressure on the marriage than I would want to have. In fact if the marriage doesn't last for any reason- even if it may not have much to do with his SSA, they will never hear the end of "I told you so" by all the naysayers out there.

LDS Living - Living with Same-sex Attraction: Our Story

Edited May 23, 2012 by carlimac

[Traveler]

I'll post this here, too, (besides a thread of it's own) so it might get noticed. I thought with all the discussions on this topic that there would be more interest but maybe we're all just tired of talking about it. Anyway, this is the guy I'm always referring to. I wish them the best, not only for them but also for the church because if he walks away from this marriage and gives in to his SSA it will reflect so badly on everything he stands for! His books are about the atonement and how it helps to deal with this challenge. I wouldn't want to be in the fishbowl they're in. That alone would put more pressure on the marriage than I would want to have. In fact if the marriage doesn't last for any reason- even if it may not have much to do with his SSA, they will never hear the end of "I told you so" by all the naysayers out there.

LDS Living - Living with Same-sex Attraction: Our Story

Because of my previous experiences with individuals involved in SSA I refused to teach a young man so involved on my mission. I have posted this story before. This young man was baptized and I refused to baptize him or be in the circle when he received the Holy Ghost.

Many years later (as I was serving as a Scout Master) a man walked up to me and asked if I was Ender --- that served in Seattle in 1966. I confirmed that I was. He then commented that I helped teach him as a missionary and was involved in his baptism. I did not remember. He then reminded me that he was involved in SSA at the time. I remember that very well. His story turned out much like Ty’s and he was currently married with children serving as a bishop.

I apologized and begged for his forgiveness - it was my first experience to have my heart softened concerning gays and those with SSA. I did not believe up to that point that a person could really repent. I stand corrected.

One thing I have learned is that there is so much emotional propaganda concerning SSA that those being drawn to repentance seldom have support - not from the saints or the gay community. Often (almost always) they are rejected by both sides. No wonder there is a high suicide rate by those attempting such an endeavor.

One of my greatest concerns about the gay community is the open resentment towards someone attempting repentance. It is also a concern about the community of Saints. We can oppose SSA but we should also support repentance - even if it takes 7 times 70.

The Traveler