Other religions

[Heber13]

You misunderstand me. There are not "other ways to exaltation in this life". The only way is through the LDS Church. Those who die without the ordinances the Church provides are not in the way to exaltation, and never will be unless they accept and embrace the doctrines of the LDS Church.

I think we are saying the same thing, perhaps just with the different view on the same thought. If they are allowed to receive and embrace doctrines and ordinances in the next life, than this life is open to: 1) being a member of the church and entering into covenants and learning to be Christ-like through those ordinances by practicing them; 2) not being a member of the church but live according to the light and knowledge received in this life to be Christ-like through practicing goodness, and be given a fair chance in the next life to accept ordinances.

Either way, it will work out, whether someone is Mormon in this life or not.

While your words are true, they ring a bit hollow to me. I have never known anyone who thinks his ordinances alone provide any guarantee of exaltation, or anyone who thinks he is better than others because of the ordinances he has received. Or if I have known them, I have not known that they felt that way. Given the nature of the covenants, I rather disbelieve that almost anyone could feel as you describe. It's possible, I suppose, but I doubt it's common.

I think it is as likely as the person in Elder McConkie's story. I don't believe his story is any more common than my example of church members who place too much pride in their covenants instead of what they do with their covenants. You just choose describe potential flaws of those outside the church, and I am describing potential flaws inside the church, but we're both describing the same flaw in how people look at ordinances.

[Vort]

I think we are saying the same thing, perhaps just with the different view on the same thought.

Perhaps. In my mind, the emphasis is the important thing. If our emphasis is, "You know, it really doesn't matter much whether people find and embrace the gospel in this life," then I think that's a very wrong-minded emphasis.

You just choose describe potential flaws of those outside the church, and I am describing potential flaws inside the church, but we're both describing the same flaw in how people look at ordinances.

Not sure what you mean. I haven't been targeting flaws, potential or otherwise, of non-Latter-day Saints. I have been arguing against some of the ideas that you expressed in your original post:

"If I think this church is one way to God, but not the only way, am I on dangerous ground?

"I have so many friends outside the church that are such wonderful good people, I'm not sure they NEED to convert. They are pretty dang good people now.

"What do you all think about other religions being just as good as the Mormon church, as long as they help people develop Christ-like qualities?"

Answering in order:

• The LDS Church is indeed the only way to God, or at least to the fulness of the Father.
• All your wonderful friends need to convert and accept Christ's gospel. Merely being good people is not sufficient.
• Other religions are not "just as good as" the LDS Church. (There is no "Mormon Church", by the way.) If they were "just as good", there would be no point in preaching the gospel or in being members of the Church.

[Heber13]

Perhaps. In my mind, the emphasis is the important thing. If our emphasis is, "You know, it really doesn't matter much whether people find and embrace the gospel in this life," then I think that's a very wrong-minded emphasis.

If your emphasis is that only Mormons will be exalted, then that is the wrong-minded emphasis.

If people can accept the gospel in this life or the next life, then there are multiple paths to getting there eventually. That is what we agree on.

Not sure what you mean. I haven't been targeting flaws, potential or otherwise, of non-Latter-day Saints.

Your story by Bruce R McConkie demonstrates a flawed perspective on how someone might think they can be saved later by having the proxy work done for them. I was comparing it to someone in the church that has flawed thinking their ordinances will save them above their neighbors who don't have ordinances done for them. Either way, it is missing the point on what ordinances can do for us.

[*]The LDS Church is indeed the only way to God, or at least to the fulness of the Father.

I respect your opinion. But I disagree. Jesus Christ is the only way to God. There is a difference, and the Church has its role in it, but it is an important distinction in my opinion.

[*]All your wonderful friends need to convert and accept Christ's gospel. Merely being good people is not sufficient.

Perhaps. And perhaps in this life or the next, they will be allowed to make that choice. Until then, I focus on me and my family and allow others the right to worship God according to the dictates of their conscience.

[*]Other religions are not "just as good as" the LDS Church. (There is no "Mormon Church", by the way.) If they were "just as good", there would be no point in preaching the gospel or in being members of the Church.

I respectfully disagree. I have studied many other religions that have some teachings that are better than what I find in the Church. Overall, I prefer the LDS doctrine for me, the whole package is best for me. But others are just as good in many ways, from what I can see. That does not diminish the need to preach the gospel or for me to be a Mormon.

I don't have to be "right" in order to embrace the good I have, and I can allow others to live with what they find is good for them.

There is no evidence the Mormon church does more for people than other good churches do for their members. None that I can find, anyway. There are just opinions and feelings we have about which is better for us. And more important, what we do with the light and knowledge given to us.

[bytor2112]

Heber.....what Vort is expressing is that the Saving ordinances that we have been blessed to receive and administer is how ALL must come unto Christ and obtain Eternal Life. There are good people of all faiths and also those that do not believe or practice any religious tradition.

Regardless of how good someone is or how much good their religious tradition may accomplish, if they do not have Faith in Jesus Christ, repent and receive the ordinances necessary for Exaltation....their goodness will not merit them Eternal Life.

I am most comforted when I think of the world as whole when I remember the Lord's word's to Moses:For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. The Lord IS perfect in HIS work and will come off triumphant and ALL who desire to be with the Father will be...........

[Sicily510]

Originally Posted by Heber13

I would also add, those who are in the church who think their ordinances will provide them a magical and foolproof guarantee, but never learn to live the charity Christ exemplified, and become converted to become more like Him, also deceive themselves by thinking they are better than people of other religions just because of earthly ordinances.

I find this type of statement amongst members whom find themselves obliged by the actions of other members not realizing that their own actions is the same examples of the exact behaviors they are condemning. Of course, nobody is perfect in any religion yet it is our individual duties to seek perfection in Heavenly Father and live accordingly. When in concern about a matter such as this I think it's necessary to focus on one spiritually. Obviously, if one cannot support the doctrines and ordinances of their faith what makes them capable of teaching others?

It's very important to realize when in doubt search, ponder, and pray even ask counsels in the church for more understanding. I don't think it's appropriate to speak in behalf of anyone or to refer to others in the church but oneself if in questions regarding the sanctity of exaltation. I myself do not fully understand the requirements of entering into the CK, but I am hopeful and faithful that I will be able to acquire through the teachings and fellowship of other members of the LDS church. Latter-day saints are members whom understand the spiritual worthiness that's needed through Jesus Christ to hold any sacred callings and duties.

Every member is to spiritually build upon and feast upon the teachings in the scriptures of Jesus Christ and when they do will they truly know this church. It's beyond our own mental capacity thus I believe why the scriptures were written, it needed to be written so that we can be reminded through all the questions, doubts, and misinterpretations we may encounter. I'm hopeful that you will be able to understand that your worth of your soul is greatly desired by heavenly father and it's manifested that we must become holy through Jesus Christ only, in order to enter his Kingdom. Exaltation is real the sacrifice of our Savior Jesus Christ is to exemplify that not only will we be resurrected but if we can live like his begotten son may we inherit our mansions accordingly or even become one as Heavenly Father. I truly believe that this church has perfected the understanding of our Savior through his teachings.

Here is something that I've learned in church through searching:

1 Corinthians 1:26–31 . “God Hath Chosen the Weak Things of the World to Confound the Things Which Are Mighty”

“Question: Who is better qualified to preach the gospel, a fifty-year-old college president of world renown who has many scholastic degrees, or a nineteen-year-old high school graduate who has no scholastic stature whatever?

“Answer: The one who has a testimony of the gospel and who is so living as to have the companionship and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

“Question: How is it that the weak things of the earth confound the mighty and strong?

“Answer: True religion is not a matter of intellectuality or of worldly prominence or renown, but of spirituality; and they are not weak but strong in the realm of spiritual things.

“Question: How is it that weak and untried persons have spiritual powers and understanding which is often denied the learned and worldly wise?

“Answer: It is in large measure a matter of pre-existent preparation. Some people developed in the pre-mortal life the talents to recognize truth, to comprehend spiritual things, to receive revelation from the Spirit; others did not. Those so endowed spiritually were foreordained and sent to earth to serve at God’s command as his ministers.” (McConkie, DNTC, 2:316–17.)

1 Corinthians 1:28 . Why Would God Choose the “Base Things of the World” to Do His Work?

Here is an example of how words can change through the centuries by acquiring a meaning almost opposite to that which they originally conveyed. In the English of the 1600s, base meant “lowly” or “humble,” whereas today it carries with it the idea of “lewd and evil.”

(34-10) 1 Corinthians 2:1–8 . “My Speech and My Preaching Was Not with Enticing Words of Man’s Wisdom”

“There was of old, there is now, and to all eternity there shall be only one approved and proper way to preach the gospel—Preach by the power of the Spirit. Anything short of this is not of God and has neither converting nor saving power. All the religious learning, of all the professors of religion, of all the ages is as nothing compared to the Spirit-born testimony of one legal administrator. . . .

“If there is any truth of salvation that Deity has made imperishably clear, it is the first and last, in all ages, now and forever, among the learned and the ignorant for all races and peoples, and for that matter on all the endless worlds of the great Creator, there is one formula and one formula only for conveying saving truth to men—Preach by the power of the Spirit.” (McConkie, DNTC, 2:318.)

For centuries the Greeks had glorified wisdom and man’s ability to achieve. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle—these were the men of reverence. Even the very word philosopher means “lover of wisdom.” But Paul’s point is that true wisdom comes only from God, and that therefore only those who are spiritually minded can understand and receive true wisdom. Notice the phrases Paul uses in contrasting the two kinds of wisdom in 1 Corinthians 2:6, 7 . The core of Paul’s whole line of reasoning is summed up in 1 Corinthians 2:14 . The unspiritual (or natural) man misperceives truth because it is perceived only by the Spirit. He has already shown that the Corinthian saints had serious misconceptions. Therefore, what is the obvious conclusion about the saints there?

POINTS TO PONDER

ONLY AS WE PUT OUR FULL TRUST IN GOD WILL WE FIND ULTIMATE HAPPINESS

The scriptures indicate that in the latter days, Satan will make war with the Saints of God and “encompasseth them round about.” ( D&C 76:29 .) Because you desire to serve the Lord, the adversary will strive to cause you to fall. His methods, as President Spencer W. Kimball has indicated, are very subtle:

“He will use his logic to confuse and his rationalizations to destroy. He will shade meanings, open doors an inch at a time, and lead from purest white through all the shades of gray to the darkest black.” ( Faith Precedes the Miracle, p. 152.)

As you have learned, the Corinthian saints faced a similar problem to the one Nephi saw you would be faced with today. Read carefully 2 Nephi 28:9–16 . What are some of the precepts of men that could cause even the “humble followers of Christ” to go astray? Consider the following statements by Elder Ezra Taft Benson:

“The world teaches birth control. Tragically, many of our sisters subscribe to its pills and practices when they could easily provide earthly tabernacles for more of our Father’s children. We know that every spirit assigned to this earth will come, whether through us or someone else. There are couples in the Church who think they are getting along just fine with their limited families but who will someday suffer the pains of remorse when they meet the spirits that might have been part of their posterity. The first commandment given to man was to multiply and replenish the earth with children. That commandment has never been altered, modified, or cancelled. The Lord did not say to multiply and replenish the earth if it is convenient, or if you are wealthy, or after you have gotten your schooling, or when there is peace on earth, or until you have four children. The Bible says, ‘Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: . . . Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them. . . .’ ( Ps. 127:3, 5 .) We believe God is glorified by having numerous children and a program of perfection for them. So also will God glorify that husband and wife who have a large posterity and who have tried to raise them up in righteousness.

“The precepts of men would have you believe that by limiting the population of the world, we can have peace and plenty. That is the doctrine of the devil. Small numbers do not insure peace; only righteousness does, After all, there were only a handful of men on the earth when Cain interrupted the peace of Adam’s household by slaying Abel. On the other hand, the whole city of Enoch was peaceful; and it was taken into heaven because it was made up of righteous people.

And so far as limiting the population in order to provide plenty is concerned, the Lord answered that falsehood in the Doctrine and Covenants when he said:

“‘For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves.’ ( D&C 104:17 .) . . .

“. . . Let us listen and learn from the following wise words of this seer, President Clark:

“‘. . . Many influences (more than ever before in my lifetime) are seeking to break down chastity with its divinely declared sanctity. . . .

“‘In schoolrooms the children are taught what is popularly called “the facts of life.” Instead of bringing about the alleged purpose of the teaching, that is, strengthening of the morals of youth, this teaching seems to have had directly the opposite effect. The teaching seems merely to have whetted curiosity and augmented appetite. . . .’ ( Relief Society Magazine, December 1952, p. 793.) . . .

“And so the precepts of men are at work on our youth in so many ways. Said President Clark, ‘. . . a tremendous amount of the modern art, of the modern literature and music, and the drama that we have today is utterly demoralizing—utterly.’ ( Relief Society Magazine, December 1952, p. 792.)

“Have you been listening to the music that many young folks are hearing today? Some of it is nerve-jamming in nature and much of it has been deliberately designed to promote revolution, dope, immorality, and a gap between parent and child. And some of this music has invaded our church cultural halls.

“Have you noticed some of our Church dances lately? Have they been praiseworthy, lovely, and of good report? ‘I doubt,’ said President McKay, ‘whether it is possible to dance most of the prevalent fad dances in a manner to meet LDS standards.’ And what about modesty in dress? . . .

“Now what kind of magazines come into your home? With perhaps one or two exceptions, I would not have any of the major national slick magazines in my home. As President Clark so well put it, ‘. . . take up any national magazine, look at the ads and, if you can stand the filth, read some of the stories—they are, in their expressed and suggestive standards of life, destructive of the very foundations of our society.’ ( Conference Report, Apr. 1951, p. 79.)

“Now hear this test proposed by President George Q. Cannon: ‘If the breach is daily widening between ourselves and the world . . . we may be assured that our progress is certain, however slow. On the opposite hand, if our feelings and affections, our appetites and desires, are in unison with the world around us and freely fraternize with them . . . we should do well to examine ourselves. Individuals in such a condition might possess a nominal position in the Church but would be lacking the life of the work, and, like the foolish virgins who slumbered while the bridegroom tarried, they would be unprepared for his coming. . . .’ ( Millennial Star, Oct. 5, 1861 [Vol. 23], pp. 645–46.)” ( CR, Apr. 1969, pp. 12–15.)

Now read carefully the following statement by Nephi: 2 Nephi 28:31 .

Are there decisions in your life right now that need the guidance of the Lord? Have you put your trust in him? Have you asked for his help and then sought for strength to do his will?

Read Proverbs 3:5, 6 .

The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles - 34 - "That Your Faith Should Not Stand in the Wisdom of Men""That Your Faith Should Not Stand I the Wisdom of Men"

1 Corinthians 2:7-16

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

This is why I believe there had to be a new and sacred everlasting covenant. Thus new wine in old bottles.

Mark 2:18–22 . What Did Jesus Mean by the Phrase “New Wine in Old Bottles”?

“In such wise did our Lord proclaim the newness and completeness of His gospel. It was in no sense a patching up of Judaism. He had not come to mend old and torn garments; the cloth He provided was new, and to sew it on the old would be but to tear afresh the threadbare fabric and leave a more unsightly rent than at first. Or to change the figure, new wine could not safely be entrusted to old bottles. The bottles here referred to were really bags, made of the skins of animals, and of course they deteriorated with age. Just as old leather splits or tears under even slight strain, so the old bottle-skins would burst from the pressure of fermenting juice, and the good wine would be lost. The gospel taught by Christ was a new revelation, superseding the past, and marking the fulfilment of the law; it was no mere addendum, nor was it a reenactment of past requirements; it embodied a new and an everlasting covenant. Attempts to patch the Judaistic robe of traditionalism with the new fabric of the covenant could result in nothing more sightly than a rending of the fabric. The new wine of the gospel could not be held in the old time-worn containers of Mosaic libations. Judaism would be belittled and Christianity perverted by any such incongruous association.” (Talmage, Jesus the Christ, pp. 196–97.)

The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles - 6 - "This is He of Whom It is Written""This is He of Whom It is Written"

This church faces many ridicules and questions from racial discrimination to bias ideas. I wonder why one would question racism in a church that existed during times its country believed in slavery and any people caught associating with the African Americans were to be executed the same. And to think that this church favors males is inconsistent with the many single mothers and female teachers that help inform each other how to strengthen spiritually in our Savior Jesus Christ and become better daughters of Heavenly Father. Snap out the old ways and click in with the new era, people who fall for these type of rationalizing or discrimination of this church have yet to understand the true meaning of forgiving and change. Instead of adding to the fuel of criticism be the remedy and correct it through Jesus Christ teachings.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Sicily510

[Vort]

If your emphasis is that only Mormons will be exalted, then that is the wrong-minded emphasis.

If by "Mormons" you mean those who accept the gospel covenants, then your statement above is true. So why would you find it "wrong-minded"?

If people can accept the gospel in this life or the next life, then there are multiple paths to getting there eventually. That is what we agree on.

Let's suppose you want to get into Fort Knox. Let's say someone tells you, "In order to get into Fort Knox, you have to have permission from the President and go in the front gate."

How many ways are there to get into Fort Knox? Answer: One.

What if you say, "But I don't have to ask the President right now. I can wait for a few years and then get permission. So there are multiple ways to get into Fort Knox."

My response would be: No, there are not multiple ways. There is one way.

Scriptures and prophetic teachings unanimously attest that there are not multiple paths to God. There is one path. Whether you get on that path now or later, it's still the same path.

Why is this important? Because using the "all roads lead to Rome" theory of heaven implies a falsehood: Any philosophy is as good as any other. In fact, there is only one path to God, and that path leads through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I respect your opinion. But I disagree. Jesus Christ is the only way to God. There is a difference, and the Church has its role in it, but it is an important distinction in my opinion.

Okay, this is a valid point. But it's a point that ultimately doesn't go anywhere except back to what I said.

How does one come unto Jesus? Are there many paths for that? No. There may be many ways that people become aware of Jesus, and there may be various ways people try to get to know him. But he himself has taught that only through the baptismal covenant can we take upon ourselves his name. And the Catholic Church's baptism, the Baptist Church's baptism, or any other baptism outside the LDS Church has exactly the same efficacy in bringing people to a covenant relationship with Christ: None.

Perhaps. And perhaps in this life or the next, they will be allowed to make that choice. Until then, I focus on me and my family and allow others the right to worship God according to the dictates of their conscience.

How does the right to worship God according to the dictates of one's conscience have to do with the matter at hand? That is a deep truth, even an article of faith of our religion. But sincere and deeply felt worship of Baal won't save anyone. For that matter, neither will the attempted worship of the true and living God, unless that worship attempt includes the making and keeping of the covenants found only in the LDS Church.

I respectfully disagree. I have studied many other religions that have some teachings that are better than what I find in the Church. Overall, I prefer the LDS doctrine for me, the whole package is best for me. But others are just as good in many ways, from what I can see.

In the sense that they can be part of a caring community, yes.

In the sense that they can learn a few things about the nature of God...perhaps.

In the sense that they can come unto Christ, covenant with him, and be perfected in him, absolutely not.

Saying that other religions are "just as good as" the LDS religion is like saying that Diet Coke is "just as nutritious as" any other food. It's simply false.

That does not diminish the need to preach the gospel or for me to be a Mormon.

I don't follow your reasoning. If Buddhism is equally good with Mormonism, why ought Mormonism be preached to Buddhists?

I don't have to be "right" in order to embrace the good I have, and I can allow others to live with what they find is good for them.

Again, what has this to do with the topic at hand?

There is no evidence the Mormon church does more for people than other good churches do for their members. None that I can find, anyway.

Then I wonder that you give 10% of your increase to it.

[Heber13]

Heber.....what Vort is expressing is that the Saving ordinances that we have been blessed to receive and administer is how ALL must come unto Christ and obtain Eternal Life. There are good people of all faiths and also those that do not believe or practice any religious tradition.

Regardless of how good someone is or how much good their religious tradition may accomplish, if they do not have Faith in Jesus Christ, repent and receive the ordinances necessary for Exaltation....their goodness will not merit them Eternal Life.

Ya, I get that bytor. Do we agree that people will have a fair chance, either in this life, or in the next life to receive these saving ordinances?

If so, then it is reasonable that a devout Buddhist will be taught wonderful truths in this life through Buddhism truths, might live a righteous life, and in the next life be taught and receive ordinances needed to be exalted if they receive them.

Therefore, another path to exaltation is Buddhism. Correct?

[Heber13]

There is a good quote from a Jewish Rabbi that goes like this:

I know what I believe. It's in my soul. But what I constantly tell our people, you should be convinced of the authenticity of what you have, but you must be humble enough to say that we don't know everything. And since we don't know everything, we must accept that someone else may believe something else.

I can respect Vort's position, and there is only ONE way. It is Christ. That is what the scriptures say.

I think it would be very problematic if we could only follow Christ by being Mormon in this life, but revelation has given us the knowledge that the timing of when we receive these truths is according to God's time. So many things are in His hands, and that comforts me.

I have a deep respect for other religions, and think it can be offensive if we claim too loudly the LDS Church is the ONLY way to exaltation. Perhaps it is what we believe, and perhaps I am open to believing God's plan is merciful enough to realize there are mysterious ways He is able to Bring To Pass The Salvation and The Eternal Life of as many of His children as possible.

Pres Hinckley reminded us well:

As we carry forward our distinctive mission, we work under a mandate given us by the risen Lord, who has spoken in this last and final dispensation. This is His unique and wonderful cause. We bear testimony and witness of Him. But we need not do so with arrogance or self-righteousness.

...

A holier-than-thou attitude is not becoming to us. I am in receipt of a letter from a man in our community who is not a member of the Church. In it he says that his little daughter has been ostracized by her schoolmates who are Latter-day Saints. He sets forth another instance of a child who, it is alleged, had a religious medal ripped from his neck by an LDS child. I hope this is not true. If it is, I apologize to those who have been offended.

Let us rise above all such conduct and teach our children to do likewise. Let us be true disciples of the Christ, observing the Golden Rule, doing unto others as we would have them do unto us. Let us strengthen our own faith and that of our children while being gracious to those who are not of our faith. Love and respect will overcome every element of animosity. Our kindness may be the most persuasive argument for that which we believe.

[estradling75]

I think you guys are talking past each other...

There are two things that I see that are required to be exalted... One must have the ordinances, and one must 'become' what Christ would have us become.

The Ordinance and the Authority perform such ordinances are currently only held by the LDS church. This sounds more exclusive then it really is due to work for the dead. If you only have the ordinances but you don't 'become' what Christ would have use become then you don't make it. (As has been pointed out)

For the 'Become' part alot of that work can be done outside the LDS church. Other faiths, solo visits into spiritually etc. can all work to help someone 'become.' But just like ordinances don't work alone neither does this. At some point this person must 'Become' willing to accept the yolk of Christ, to accept the required Ordinances, and while path might have been different in reaching this point, once it is reached from this point on the path is the same.

[bytor2112]

Therefore, another path to exaltation is Buddhism. Correct?

I don't think so. It might be a barrier to accepting Christ. Consider the following scripture:

And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.

72 Behold, these are they who died without law;

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

I think that there will be many that will remain blinded by their steadfast belief in False Christs and False churches and the doctrines of men. Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it; but wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein, until the night cometh, wherein no man can work.

[jb789]

If so, then it is reasonable that a devout Buddhist will be taught wonderful truths in this life through Buddhism truths, might live a righteous life, and in the next life be taught and receive ordinances needed to be exalted if they receive them.

Therefore, another path to exaltation is Buddhism. Correct?

I believe that Buddhism (or another of the world's great religions) could be a pre-cursor to exaltation, if that is the most light/teaching a person has available in this life. But, at some point (in this life or the next), they will need to be taught the full gospel, including Christ, his role as Savior, and the ordinances, in order to progress further.

I believe that many of the world's religions/philsophies can be precursors to the full gospel, in times/places when the fullness of the gospel wasn't had (Buddha was an example of this). The mistake I think some LDS people make is assuming that many/most of the originators of other faiths/religions are misguided - having read a fair amount of Eastern philsophy (including Buddhism), I can say with fair certainty this is not the case - the Buddha, Lao Tzu, and others were very spiritual men, I would say among the "noble and great ones", who were most likely placed where they were to help others, in a time/place where the fullness of the restored gospel was not. They were "spiritual giants" in their own time and place.

Despite this, at some point, one must learn the fulness of the gospel - so while many of the world's great religions might be a precursor to this, in and of themselves, they aren't sufficient.

[Misshalfway]

I don't think so. It might be a barrier to accepting Christ. Consider the following scripture:

My understanding is that Buddhism doesn't require a belief in God. One can be a "Buddhist" and be involved with other religious services.

I suppose it could be a barrier to accepting Christ. But I think the "could be" is the most important part of that sentence. Doesn't mean it always does.

I think that there will be many that will remain blinded by their steadfast belief in False Christs and False churches and the doctrines of men. Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it; but wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein, until the night cometh, wherein no man can work.

As if mormon's are never "blinded" by their own views......

Personally, I've gained a lot of insight and growth by studying Buddhism and other views. Stuff that the mormon way didn't necessarily teach. Stuff I wish they would.

[Timpman]

I am a bit suspicious of Heber13's motives here. For everyone's information, he is a moderator of a forum that supports middle way Mormonism. To be fair, Heber seems to be a more believing moderator, but nothing good will come of this thread......unless Vort can learn to say things more tactfully :)

Edited July 8, 2012 by Timpman

[bytor2112]

My understanding is that Buddhism doesn't require a belief in God. One can be a "Buddhist" and be involved with other religious services.

Hmmm...it is my understanding that Buddhists do not believe in God and believe that the origin of the idea of God had it's origin from fear, so the "requirement" as you refer to it, doesn't exist, because God doesn't exist in the belief system of Buddhists.

[Vort]

Ya, I get that bytor. Do we agree that people will have a fair chance, either in this life, or in the next life to receive these saving ordinances?

If so, then it is reasonable that a devout Buddhist will be taught wonderful truths in this life through Buddhism truths, might live a righteous life, and in the next life be taught and receive ordinances needed to be exalted if they receive them.

Therefore, another path to exaltation is Buddhism. Correct?

By that logic, paganism, atheism, or Satanism are all simply "other paths to exaltation".

Of course, this is absurd nonsense. A path to exaltation is a path that leads you to exaltation. Satanism, or atheism, or paganism, or Buddhism, or frankly any other religion or system of thought or belief that is not "Mormonism" cannot ever do that. Ever. No matter how long you wait.

No, if LDS teachings and doctrines are true and the gospel has been restored, then Buddhism cannot reasonably be considered "another path to exaltation". It is an illogical and self-contradictory statement.

[prisonchaplain]

There is a very important relationship between the "True and living G-d" and the "True and living Church." It is as important to belong to the "True and Living Church" as it is to worship the "True and Living G-d". The Traveler

I wonder about this. Even if there is a true and living church organization (I'm Protestant, and so believe the universal church is composed of all Christian believers, regardless of denomination), would one have to belong to it to find an eternal place of blessing with the Father? If the Old Testament Jewish pattern is consistent, then it would seem that no, citizenship in the Chosen Kingdom is not required.

Even today, Jewish rabbis are instructed to discourage conversion. Gentiles are encouraged to be the best follower of their current religion, possible, rather than convert to Judaism. They argue that God has a special covenant with Israel, and a more general one for non-Jews, called the Laws of Noah: Noahide.org - Home Page

Might it be that some non-LDS souls, who are faithful to what God has revealed to them in mortality, might, based upon their response in the afterlife, eventually enter the Celestial Kingdom? In contrast, given that 60% of LDS are not active, might it be that some members will be satisfied with one of the lower kingdoms?

BTW, as for what makes a full-blown knowledge of the gospel or the Restored Gospel, that's probably a judgment call the Holy Spirit will make. No?

[norah63]

Doc and Cov. 3 :16a, has always been a point of hope for me.

"Behold this is my doctrine: Whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church:"

The 'us vs them' is just not a profitable road to share the gospel in my humble opinion.

[jb789]

Hmmm...it is my understanding that Buddhists do not believe in God and believe that the origin of the idea of God had it's origin from fear, so the "requirement" as you refer to it, doesn't exist, because God doesn't exist in the belief system of Buddhists.

In what I've read from Buddhism (the words of the Buddha himself), he never stated there was a God or not, because he honestly didn't know (no restored Gospel in his time/place), so he simply refrained from commenting on it, and instead focused on how to live a peaceable life here.

As with many, perhaps all religions, the farther they get from the source, the more "doctrines of men" can creep in - but in what I've read of the Buddha's own teachings/words, he never denied the existence of God, nor proposed it - because he (in my view) honestly didn't know either way, he simply focused on this life.

[bytor2112]

In what I've read from Buddhism (the words of the Buddha himself), he never stated there was a God or not, because he honestly didn't know (no restored Gospel in his time/place), so he simply refrained from commenting on it, and instead focused on how to live a peaceable life here.

As with many, perhaps all religions, the farther they get from the source, the more "doctrines of men" can creep in - but in what I've read of the Buddha's own teachings/words, he never denied the existence of God, nor proposed it - because he (in my view) honestly didn't know either way, he simply focused on this life.

I would think that Buddhism...is the doctrines of men and I don't know if this is a reliable source or not, but just for the sake of.....

[jb789]

I would think that Buddhism...is the doctrines of men and I don't know if this is a reliable source or not, but just for the sake of.....

Yes, I agree that Buddhism is certainly incomplete (no Christ!) Nonetheless, I think some religions/philosophies come from men that are living according to the best light they have (I would count the original Buddha as one of these), whereas others are by misguided individuals who in some cases even distort the truth (think many of the Christian sects of Joseph Smith's time, who Joseph himself noted their hearts were far from the truth).

In the case of the Buddha, while I can't be sure, I'm led to believe from all I've read that he lived according to the light he had the best he could, and sincerely strove to live at peace and help others. He received no direct revelations, so knew not concerning God/the afterlife/etc, yet nonetheless was a great example and help to those around him.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Ya, I get that bytor. Do we agree that people will have a fair chance, either in this life, or in the next life to receive these saving ordinances?

If so, then it is reasonable that a devout Buddhist will be taught wonderful truths in this life through Buddhism truths, might live a righteous life, and in the next life be taught and receive ordinances needed to be exalted if they receive them.

Therefore, another path to exaltation is Buddhism. Correct?

I think your hang up might be the value of covenants. I would suggest working on gaining a testimony of what it means to have covenants and the value it brings to this life. Covenants are not just titles. They are not just gates to pass through then move onto the next. They are vehicles that allow a person to move to the next step. They are the method in which God can partner with us to achieve more than what we can do on our own.

If I wanted to take a trip to Hawaii, it would be silly to think that I could get there by walking or riding a bike or by car. Sure, those things may get me closer to Hawaii but they can't take me all the way. Only if I use the correct vehicle can I get to Hawaii from where I am at right now. Similarly, the gospel along with it's Priesthood and associated keys for ordinances is a vehicle to allow for the upward movement that without it our development in that regard is severely limited.

The other thing to keep in mind is that this life is not a test of knowing things. All of us here accepted the plan of God and believed in it from the beginning as we all kept our first estate. That part of the test is over for us, we all passed. We all accepted the concept intellectually. This life is a test of what is the desire of our heart, what we like and what we would like to be. If I desire to take a trip to South Dakota because that is what my religion tells me where salvation exists, metaphorically (hopefully no offense, my Dad is from South Dakota) and one develops a love for that concept while here, then that love or that desire will continue in the next life. So, even when they are presented with the idea of a trip to Hawaii, (metaphorically speaking) they have no desire for it or no taste for that kind of life because they have been taught and believe in another type of life.

Think of it in terms of what it takes to be "converted". It is not just a knowledge but a desire and a way of being, a mighty change of heart. If there is no "conversion" process or no direction to be a Celestial being then one can never have that as the desire of their heart.

[Guest ramsey333]

LOL. :~) I'm laughing. The LDS arrogance (which is pride) is something I will never fully get used to, but will always be amused by.

Allow me to point out some facts.

1. The pride in which the LDS have in claiming they are the "only" true church by which their members will be the only ones in the highest degree of heaven ~ is actually a sin. Because Gods rule is that we shall have no pride ~ as pride is of man and not of God.

2. The LDS believe they will endure the tribulation. The bible states that those who are truly saved will be taken before the worst of the tribulation. The rapture occurs after Damscus is destroyed (which it is in the process of) and before Israel is invaded on all sides by its enemy ~ the islamic/jihad nation. Now ~ think about this ~ God tells us through the bible that those who are truly saved will be raptured between this period. If they LDS church is the only true church and the lds were truly saved ~ why would they have to endure the rest of the tribulation just as all other non believers? Could it be because the LDS faith is not as true as the LDS believe? hm. Interesting.

3. God said that only GOD is God. Yet the LDS believe that they will become God. Beyond this, the LDS believe that many worlds have been created by many Gods. Which begs the question ~ why would God state he is the only one true and real God? And if there are many Gods in which creation came to be through these many gods, then where did the one real, true and only God begin? The LDS can't answer this.

4. God states that we must have pure faith in Him. Now ~ if I were to follow the LDS path, I would know exactly where I am going ~ how I was going to get there ~ what I was going to be and why I was going to be such. Now, having all the answers ~ I wouldn't require as much faith in Him, because I would already have all the answers ~ the answers that the LDS church provides. For this purpose ~ is it reasonable to assume the reason the LDS will inherit this earth as their heaven and eventual celestial kingdom, is because it is the actual lower kingdom of heaven ~ that did not require faith but only knowing to enter? I believe so. I believe that God has many mansions because that is what He said ~ and through solely faith I will see the other mansions because I didn't allow myself to get caught up in someone else's definition of who I will be. Rather ~ I allowed God to define me through solely eternally trusting His guidance and believing that He has even more in store for me than simply the information He gave us during this test (Because even the LDS believe there are more scriptures the earth hasn't received yet. Therefore, even LDS scriptures aren't complete. Why would I want to follow that?). I believe blind faith rather than knowing holds the greatest reward.

5. The LDS consider that their works will profit them in heaven. How arrogant. lol. How prideful. How human it is to believe that anything we could do in this lifetime would please such a perfect God. When in reality, His perfection is so far beyond our understanding that nothing we could do could ever fully please Him. And that is the beauty of His love. That He loves us so perfectly and unconditionally anyways. Yet ~ the LDS believe we could please Him enough to earn the reward of furthering our place in heaven, to the point of gaining His stature? I tell you this. All of Gods gifts, are *solely* gifts. And ~ if He decides to make you a God ~ its not because you earned or deserved it. It is solely because He decided to make you perfect ~ something of which you can not do. And if He makes you perfect ~and if He makes you a God ~ it is because it is His will for His purposes. Certainly not for your will ~ or for your desires and what you did to gain those desires.

I do believe it is foolish to count your basket of eggs in heaven before they are hatched. Neither are the LDS more worthy or deserving than any other person in this world. Simply because your religion makes you feel worthy ~ does not make it so. The pharisees also felt worthy.

;~)

[Vort]

LOL. :~) I'm laughing. The LDS arrogance (which is pride) is something I will never fully get used to, but will always be amused by.

Ironically, your amusement is arrogant pridefulness.

Allow me to point out some facts.

Sure, as long as you allow me to point out how unfactual your "facts" are.

1. The pride in which the LDS have in claiming they are the "only" true church by which their members will be the only ones in the highest degree of heaven ~ is actually a sin.

Wrong. It is not "pride" to tell the truth.

2. The LDS believe they will endure the tribulation. The bible states that those who are truly saved will be taken before the worst of the tribulation.

Your gloss of Biblical teachings is unconvincing, trivialized, poorly considered, and of no real worth.

Could it be because the LDS faith is not as true as the LDS believe?

The answer is "no", though clearly you disbelieve that true answer.

By the way, why do you dishonestly represent your religion as "LDS"? Lying is unbecoming.

3. God said that only GOD is God. Yet the LDS believe that they will become God.

You are either sadly ignorant or you are lying. Pray tell which.

Clearly, we do not believe we will "become God". But we do believe the entirely Biblical doctrine that, if we are Christ's, we will inherit all that the Father has, along with Christ himself. Surely you believe this. Or if not, you disbelieve the Bible.

Beyond this, the LDS believe that many worlds have been created by many Gods. Which begs the question ~ why would God state he is the only one true and real God?

You have no idea what it means to "beg the question", do you? (HINT: It doesn't mean what you obviously think it means.)

4. God states that we must have pure faith in Him. Now ~ if I were to follow the LDS path, I would know exactly where I am going ~ how I was going to get there ~ what I was going to be and why I was going to be such. Now, having all the answers ~ I wouldn't require as much faith in Him, because I would already have all the answers ~ the answers that the LDS church provides.

This just might possibly be the single stupidest argument I have ever heard put forth. Congratulations!

5. The LDS consider that their works will profit them in heaven. How arrogant. lol. How prideful.

Again, you may tell us whether you are lying or merely abysmally ignorant. We believe in keeping our covenants.

Simply because your religion makes you feel worthy ~ does not make it so. The pharisees also felt worthy.

;~)

I take it you speak from personal experience.

[Timpman]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church. That should not be said with any degree of haughtiness, but it is true nonetheless. I don't like this nom stuff.

[Hala401]

Hello all.

It seems to me that we regularly recognize the good in other religions. Any good that brings people closer to God has truth in it, but we claim as Mormons more revealed truth, or greater collection of truth. The quotes are often about truth is found in many sources, but bring all that to the Mormon church and we will add unto it.

This is a comforting response to those who believe the Church is the "one true" church. It can be a bit offensive to others, obviously.

But I really want to hear from this group why we would think God would work and offer salvation for such a small group of His children? Temple work for the dead is a nice thought, but it doesn't make sense to me when this mortal life is so important in our test.

If I think this church is one way to God, but not the only way, am I on dangerous ground?

I have so many friends outside the church that are such wonderful good people, I'm not sure they NEED to convert. They are pretty dang good people now.

What do you all think about other religions being just as good as the Mormon church, as long as they help people develop Christ-like qualities?

I don't think I have heard anyone say that our church is the only one. I do believe, and have for a long time, that the churches strayed far from what Jesus Christ intended and that the LDS are closer to the truth because we are the restored church; with complete knowlege of Jesus Christ.

I was not christian in any sense of the word until I was in my late 20's and after over 30 years, I was thrown out of my evangelical church, and became Muslim. My reason for becoming Muslim being that I was disgusted with the christian church.

Being Muslim prepared me even more for my encounter with the LDS, and once I was being taught by the sisters, it did not take that long for me to re-engage Jesus Christ. Though I nearly did reject the LDS church because one of the members of the priesthood at my current church stated that sister missionaries were not qualified to teach. That statement sounded too much like very radical Muslims from Pakistan. He did seem to back down from that obvious sexisim and we eventually became friends.

I don't think the LDS are the only ones going to please Heavenly Father, but I must say that for me, in this church, "things happen" and I am glad to be a member.