Ex-Mormon gives his thoughts on Mormonism

[Vort]

I liked this article a great deal better than I thought I would. Needless to say, I disagree with a whole lot of what the guy says, but he writes from the heart and seems to get some important things right. On the whole, a rather touching article.

Walter Kirn: Confessions Of An Ex-Mormon | The New Republic

[NeuroTypical]

I agree. There are points in his early story that align with points in my own early story. Interesting: I eventually confessed my sins to my bishop, choosing to renounce the lies, and here I am. He left the church and eventually confessed his sins to the whole world in this article.

Good article.

[Guest]

Whoa. I liked it very much too.

[Backroads]

I think I quite loved it.

[Anddenex]

Thank you for sharing this Vort. I agree an honest article.

I did notice this, I am assuming this was meant to say 2011:

"Walter Kirn is the National Correspondent at The New Republic. This article appeared in the August 2, 2012 issue of the magazine."

[Vort]

Some magazines release an issue a month in advance. I assumed that is what was going on here.

[prisonchaplain]

I believe the author unintentionally captured one of the key draws of the LDS faith: You love one another.

(Maybe not always "like"--but always love!)

[annewandering]

lol good thing the 2nd command is to LOVE each other! :) Whatever would we do if we were commanded to like each other? Actually its a thought provoking, to me anyway, question. Going to have to think about that one. :)

[Vort]

For me, the most cringe-worthy parts were those where he described young LDS men and women fornicating, smoking pot, and otherwise acting in a most unSaintly manner. Having seen examples of exactly that behavior, I cannot deny that it happens. I only wish he had given equal time to the many young men and women in the Church who don't fornicate or smoke pot -- who actually take their covenants seriously and strive to live by them.

I was also entertained and a bit chagrined at his short description of a "Flight to Eternity", one of my Church-facing pet peeves.

[Dravin]

For me, the most cringe-worthy parts were those where he described young LDS men and women fornicating, smoking pot, and otherwise acting in a most unSaintly manner. Having seen examples of exactly that behavior, I cannot deny that it happens. I only wish he had given equal time to the many young men and women in the Church who don't fornicate or smoke pot -- who actually take their covenants seriously and strive to live by them.

Well considering he figured everyone lies at the Bishop's interview I'm not entirely sure he thinks they exist to give equal billing. Once you figure everyone else is behaving as you do those who don't behave as you do aren't examples of people behaving differently but just people you haven't found out about/caught yet.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Dravin

[Vort]

I believe the author unintentionally captured one of the key draws of the LDS faith: You love one another.

(Maybe not always "like"--but always love!)

That's very kind of you to say, PC. I wish we always lived up to such praise.

[annewandering]

My gosh, it made me cry. I didnt even want to read it. I hope what he says about people not really believing are not true. Maybe I am naive but his experiences were not mine. Not even close. Still the point that we are a community is the part that touched me. I hope he continues on his journey to find what he is looking for even though it is right under his nose, sometimes it is really hard to find.

[prisonchaplain]

Anne,

I reckon most people in most religions question some aspects. In my faith we place emphasis on speaking in tongues. It's not the be all and end all of our faith, but it is one of the unusual and supernatural markers of my tradition. I suspect a good number of our young people wonder if it is fake--just gibberish said with emotion. Do some fake it? I'm sure they do. Do some think they can "fake it 'til they make it?" Sadly, yes. Have some been "taught to speak in tongues?" by repeating gibberish, and then being ecstatically reassured that "You got it!" when they knew full well they did not have anything? Yes--this one really irrigates me, btw.

And yet, like you, I know that what I have experienced is authentic, Spirit-given, and empowering. Some, who had bad experiences, come around to what is true. Others are disheartened, and end up in other churches, or none at all.

My sense is that the author was using some hyperbole in saying he did not think anyone kept their promises or was honest with the bishops. His writing is quite good, and he is more interesting in telling his story than in reporting objective facts. He is sharing his general thinking, not statistical data.

Like most, I sense that this article will do more good than harm for your church.

[annewandering]

onI+ think it is the first honest one I have ever read but admittedly, I tend to avoid those kind of articles because they mostly just tick me off.

I agree he is telling his story. We always put our own glasses on when we view things and people around us. His story is a story of human faults and a vision of something he is searching but not finding anywhere but where he left it. I like it.

Wonder how his movie is coming along.

[Jamie123]

These have got to be stomach-squirming questions for many youngsters:

“Have you committed murder?” No, of course not.

Well maybe not this one so much. Most people haven't committed murder. But....what about those many times when you chose to spend your allowance on yourself, instead of donating it to some worthy cause - which might have saved lives by providing clean water or medicine to poor parts of Africa? If you could have saved lives but chose not to, was that not a form of murder? (I often asked myself this sort of question when I was a kid.)

“Theft?” No again, though it depended.

Indeed it does. I'm sure most of us swiped a few apples when we were kids. Or scoffed the odd strawberry during a trip to the "pick your own" farm. (I always used to joke they needed to weigh the people as well as the baskets!) And how many of us have "borrowed" paper clips and envelopes from the office stationary cupboard when we've found it convenient to do so - even if we're not in the habit of doing such things right now?

“Have you masturbated?” I started lying then.

I'm not surprised. If anyone can truthfully answer "no" to that question, they should (to paraphrase Jerome K. Jerome) be stuffed and put on display in a waxworks show. On the other hand, if any pre-teen can answer "yes" then they're a braver man than I. I remember once when I was about 12, my mother naively asked me why I insisted on keeping a stack of her old Littlewoods* catalogues next to my bed. (As if the answer wasn't blooming obvious!) The best reply I could manage was "Ummm...welllll......ummmm..." and finally lapsing into silence. I think the penny must have dropped for her because she never asked me again. As for me, I don't think I could have given a more truthful answer than that to a Bishop!

I lied right on down the remainder of the list. What’s more, I was pretty certain that we all did. So why put us through the whole confusing ordeal? To be asked if you lied and be forced to lie again was annoying and dispiriting. It prevented you from pretending you were good, which is sometimes, with kids, what helps you to be good.

The subject of lying in the confessional comes up a lot in Catholic literature too. (Try reading David Lodge's novels.) There was one case I read about (it may be fictional, but it rings so true that I'm sure its actually happened) where someone tried to "balance the books" by inventing sins that never really happened, to confess in place of his real sexual ones which were far too embarrassing to tell to the priest.

On the one occasion I did go to confession (confession is very much an optional thing for Anglicans) I did say I'd been masturbating - but at that time I was in my 30's and a lot less squeemish. The priest couldn't have thought it a big deal, because the worst he gave me was a bunch of "Our Fathers" to say.

* Similar to the Sears catalogue in the US.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Jamie123

[Dravin]

Well maybe not this one so much. Most people haven't committed murder. But....what about those many times when you chose to spend your allowance on yourself, instead of donating it to some worthy cause - which might have saved lives by providing clean water or medicine to poor parts of Africa? If you could have saved lives but chose not to, was that not a form of murder?

No, not without watering the term down so much that everyone is a murderer because there is always more one can do. Working at Doctors Without Borders and you take an evening to play cards and unwind after having worked 14 hour shifts for 3 weeks straight? Murderer.

If anyone can truthfully answer "no" to that question, they should (to paraphrase Jerome K. Jerome) be stuffed and put on display in a waxworks show.

I guess I should be stuffed. Though how you parse the question probably plays a role in how amazing my answering, "No." is. It doesn't ask, "Have you ever masturbated in your entire life including those times which you have repented of?" I think such an interpretation is unreasonable, it's a regular interview, it's asking about if you've masturbated since you've spoke to him or if there is an otherwise unresolved issue.

For the record while I think there are more people (and I'm not limiting it to women) who can answer, "No." to my parsing over yours, I don't disbelieve that there are individuals who can answer no to your parsing unless we're including something like a 2 year old child fiddling with himself innocently in the bathtub as masturbating and being required to answer yes for all eternity.

Indeed it does. I'm sure most of us swiped a few apples when we were kids. Or scoffed the odd strawberry during a trip to the "pick your own" farm. (I always used to joke they needed to weigh the people as well as the baskets!) And how many of us have "borrowed" paper clips and envelopes from the office stationary cupboard when we've found it convenient to do so - even if we're not in the habit of doing such things right now?

Once again I find your parsing of the question to be, "Have you ever in your entire life stolen, even if you've repented of it?" to be unreasonable.

If you're questions are trying to channel the hypersensitive hypocrisy detectors and penchant for drama adolescents seem to have then fine, you did a brilliant job. But if you're trying to be serious in your analysis it feels to me like you're parsing for maximum drama.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Dravin

[NeuroTypical]

If anyone can truthfully answer "no" to that question, they should (to paraphrase Jerome K. Jerome) be stuffed and put on display in a waxworks show.

I guess I'll have to be stuffed and displayed too. I had plenty of things to confess of in my youth, but that wasn't one of them.

[Guest]

Stuff me in with the rest of you.

I know more people who find the activity abhorrent than normal... but then, I grew up in the Philippines. Those Catholic nuns do a good job of teaching you how to control your sexual urges. I mean, they're nuns... they're experts at it.

[Vort]

No, not without watering the term down so much that everyone is a murderer because there is always more one can do. Working at Doctors Without Borders and you take an evening to play cards and unwind after having worked 14 hour shifts for 3 weeks straight? Murderer.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Vort

[Vort]

Working at Doctors Without Borders and you take an evening to play cards and unwind after having worked 14 hour shifts for 3 weeks straight? Murderer.

Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal

[Jamie123]

No, not without watering the term down so much that everyone is a murderer because there is always more one can do. Working at Doctors Without Borders and you take an evening to play cards and unwind after having worked 14 hour shifts for 3 weeks straight? Murderer.

I notice you removed the last sentence of my paragraph before responding. Seriously, there was a time when I did think like that. Not that I thought I ought to go to prison, because if the rule were applied to everyone there would be no one outside prisons to do the imprisoning. I saw it as a demonstration of how we were all sinners - as bad as any murderer - and therefore equally needed God's grace to save us from the fires of Hell. Later when I learned of the "total depravity" of the Calvin TULIP, that was how I interpreted it. Maybe I was wrong, but before you dismiss it as an example of the do-as-you-want-God-will-forgive-you heresy, let me mention that it sustained me through several lengthy periods of rejecting sin (including masturbation). So perhaps there's something to be said for it.

It doesn't ask, "Have you ever masturbated in your entire life including those times which you have repented of?" I think such an interpretation is unreasonable, it's a regular interview, it's asking about if you've masturbated since you've spoke to him or if there is an otherwise unresolved issue.....

Once again I find your parsing of the question to be, "Have you ever in your entire life stolen, even if you've repented of it?" to be unreasonable.

You have to remember I've never been through a Bishop's interview. Nor have I ever been prepared for one, or told what the questions mean and how they should be interpreted. I only have the questions as quoted in that article to go on. If the situation was that badly misrepresented, then maybe you could provide a link to some official Church guidance on the matter.

If you're questions are trying to channel the hypersensitive hypocrisy detectors and penchant for drama adolescents seem to have then fine, you did a brilliant job. But if you're trying to be serious in your analysis it feels to me like you're parsing for maximum drama.

Self-analysis is never easy. Perhaps on my deathbed I will know (as T.S. Eliot put it) "the shame of motives late revealed", but I think I've been honest about how my younger self would have reacted. Assuming of course I had no dravinian interpretation to go on. If I have suggested that the sins of my own youth (not to mention those of Mr. Kirn) were typical amongst our more virtuous peers, then may I be forgiven :) Edited July 19, 2012 by Jamie123

[Dravin]

I notice you removed the last sentence of my paragraph before responding. Seriously, there was a time when I did think like that.

That the thought process is in the past doesn't change my objection to it. It is fair to point it out that it does answer my question about channeling, so that is entirely my bad. Adolescents can have wonky thought processes and we can only direct how we think now, at least until a time machine is invented.

You have to remember I've never been through a Bishop's interview. Nor have I ever been prepared for one, or told what the questions mean and how they should be interpreted. I only have the questions as quoted in that article to go on. If the situation was that badly misrepresented, then maybe you could provide a link to some official Church guidance on the matter.

It has nothing to do with official guidelines and verbiage. It's part of an annual interview, it'd be pointless to ask you year after year, "Did you ever at any point in the history of your existence masturbate?" It's just a waste of everyone's time to go, "Yes... well yeah, like I told you the last three years, once when I was thirteen... No, I haven't since then...".

Edited July 19, 2012 by Dravin

[Anddenex]

I'm not surprised. If anyone can truthfully answer "no" to that question, they should (to paraphrase Jerome K. Jerome) be stuffed and put on display in a waxworks show.

Well, it appears I will be in with the group who are stuffed and displayed in a waxworks show.

[NeuroTypical]

“Have you masturbated?” I started lying then.

I'm not surprised. If anyone can truthfully answer "no" to that question, they should (to paraphrase Jerome K. Jerome) be stuffed and put on display in a waxworks show.

I guess I should be stuffed.

I guess I'll have to be stuffed and displayed too. I had plenty of things to confess of in my youth, but that wasn't one of them.

Stuff me in with the rest of you. I know more people who find the activity abhorrent than normal... but then, I grew up in the Philippines. Those Catholic nuns do a good job of teaching you how to control your sexual urges. I mean, they're nuns... they're experts at it.

Well, it appears I will be in with the group who are stuffed and displayed in a waxworks show.

I just wanted to emphasize this point. I'm thinking Jamie isn't the only one out there who was taught and believes that "everyone does it". Apparently, that's not as true as one might think.

I didn't think "everyone does it" was all that hot of a justification for questionable behavior in the first place. But since the justification isn't even true, it's even less hot.

[Backroads]

Might one assume that many boys and girls do this? Yes.

Can one assume all boys and girls do this? Apparently not!