What is general protocol?

[Bini]

This is a branch off from another thread that I didn't want to hijack.

A scenario:

An unmarried couple have a child together. Despite being non-members, they are overall good people and have a loving relationship. One day, person A decides to investigate the LDS faith and is interested in taking steps to become baptised. Person A learns that he/she cannot live the gospel in his/her current living conditions (specifically, living with boy/girlfriend). The dilemma is that person B does not want to get married (this decision was mutual prior to becoming involved with each other), however, does not care if person A wishes to become LDS.

Baring in mind that there is a child or children involved, and the relationship is a happy one, how is this situation addressed? What would be general protocol? I remember someone arguing that if your partner loves you, he/she will marry you. I know for a fact that this is untrue. I have an uncle that refused to get married. He just didn't believe marriage was necessary, however, he loves his girlfriend dearly and they have been together for about 30 years or so. They raised three boys and to this day, are a happy family.

[Vort]

Remember Lot's wife. Jesus taught:

And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

and also:

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

I cannot give an authoritative interpretation of this, and I certainly do not want to be putting words in the mouth of the Savior. But to my eyes and mind, what these teachings look like is, "I know you have things that you value. If you are willing to sacrifice all things, even those good things, for me, I will more than make up the sacrifice. If you are not willing to sacrifice those things for me, you cannot come where I am."

I do not know exactly how this applies to the situation you outline, but I suspect that we all will eventually be required to sacrifice whatever we hold dearest and embrace the Lord. If we do so, we will inherit all; if we do not, we will receive only that portion that we are willing to receive, because we were not willing to enjoy what we might have received.

One interpretation, anyway.

[beefche]

I'm sure there may be exceptions, but by and far, they would be counseled to either get married or live separately if one of the persons wanted to be baptized. One cannot agree to live the commandments while actively breaking one.

I know this was very common on my mission. Both of my mission presidents (and the mission presidents over my home area) will not approve baptism for someone who is living with another without marriage.

[Bini]

I certainly have great admiration for someone that finds the strength to pursue the gospel at whatever cost, especially for a convert, what an enormous step to take from the get-go! I don't know how many people would have the strength to leave the man/woman they love so dearly, and who is the father/mother of their child. It absolutely requires unwavering faith and trust in the Lord.

[Bini]

I'm sure there may be exceptions, but by and far, they would be counseled to either get married or live separately if one of the persons wanted to be baptized. One cannot agree to live the commandments while actively breaking one.

I know this was very common on my mission. Both of my mission presidents (and the mission presidents over my home area) will not approve baptism for someone who is living with another without marriage.

Yes, I wonder what an "exception" would entail..

[mnn727]

Breaking the Law of Chastity is one of the things that will prevent a baptism.

You either believe and follow or you don't.

[Jennarator]

I was going to say what beeche said....even siting the mission president. LOL!

Sadly we sometimes have to make sacrifices that are huge. But following the teachings of Christ will bring us more joy than anything.

I look at it as choosing best over good or better.

I don't know of any exceptions, however I am in no authority to make that call. Perhaps there is one.....but then I don't think so.....

[beefche]

Yes, I wonder what an "exception" would entail..

I have no idea. I know there was one member of this site who stated she lived with her boyfriend and was able to receive a temple recommend. I admit, though, that I find that highly suspect.

[annewandering]

I have no idea. I know there was one member of this site who stated she lived with her boyfriend and was able to receive a temple recommend. I admit, though, that I find that highly suspect.

Her boyfriend was her caretaker because she was disabled. They were not intimate. They had separate bedrooms. What about her situation did you not understand?

[beefche]

Oh, I didn't say I didn't understand what she said.

[Leah]

Her boyfriend was her caretaker because she was disabled. They were not intimate. They had separate bedrooms. What about her situation did you not understand?

She was not physically disabled. She stated she needed reminders to take her meds and her boyfriend filled that role. There were also the statements that the boyfriend had no interest in ever marrying her.

I can think of any number of ways that her needs could have been seen to without having the boyfriend live in.

I think the situation posted could have given people the impression that it is a-okay to live with your boyfriend as long as you abstain from sex. (or say you abstain from sex. I'd be surprised if very many people had that kind of willpower). If that is the stance of the LDS Church, I am surprised. I know of other churches where living with the opposite sex for any reason is not acceptable.

[Vort]

I was very close to someone who shared an apartment with his girlfriend. They dated, kissed, etc., but insisted that they kept separate bedrooms and never had sex. I may be wrong, but I believe that their bishop did not deny them temple recommends. This was maybe 15 or 20 years ago, so even if my understanding is correct, perhaps policy in such cases has been better clarified and standardized throughout the Church now.

[Leah]

I was very close to someone who shared an apartment with his girlfriend. They dated, kissed, etc., but insisted that they kept separate bedrooms and never had sex. I may be wrong, but I believe that their bishop did not deny them temple recommends. This was maybe 15 or 20 years ago, so even if my understanding is correct, perhaps policy in such cases has been better clarified and standardized throughout the Church now.

I am sure people will say I am judgemental or uninformed or whatever...but this just boggles my mind.

[annewandering]

Wow. I am still dumb enough to be surprised at how judgmental and allknowing people can be. If there was a problem with sisterinfaith, I am quite sure her bishop would have taken appropriate steps.

Leah, taking meds was not the only problem she had although if you have that problem with meds it can be very serious. My husband does and it causes a lot of trouble for him. In any case that was for her bishop to counsel her on and not for the members of this site. She explained that she was not 'living in sin' and gave no indication that she was lying.

I am still very sad that she left here because of being completely unwelcome. No one likes being called a liar every move they make.

[Guest]

I don't understand why you would live and have a child with a person who refuses to marry you in the first place.

[beefche]

Wow. I am still dumb enough to be surprised at how judgmental and allknowing people can be. If there was a problem with sisterinfaith, I am quite sure her bishop would have taken appropriate steps.

Leah, taking meds was not the only problem she had although if you have that problem with meds it can be very serious. My husband does and it causes a lot of trouble for him. In any case that was for her bishop to counsel her on and not for the members of this site. She explained that she was not 'living in sin' and gave no indication that she was lying.

I am still very sad that she left here because of being completely unwelcome. No one likes being called a liar every move they make.

Yep, I'm judgmental. I made a judgement on whether a story someone anonymously told on an internet forum is true or not. Based on my experiences, understanding, and knowledge, I made a judgment on someone's words.

Just as you made a judgment on my words. You don't believe my disbelief. Isn't it great how we are all judgmental? I'm glad that the Lord gave me the ability to use my own belief, experiences, and knowledge to make judgments on behavior, words, and actions--including my own.

[annewandering]

Fortunately my words didnt have the power to chase someone off this forum. Or away from the church.

[annewandering]

I don't understand why you would live and have a child with a person who refuses to marry you in the first place.

I dont either but then we dont live in the outside world where that is commonplace. We are the ones who are different, in this day, not them.

[beefche]

Really? Someone leaves the church due to an anonymous post(s) on an internet forum? Yeah, there's more to leaving the church than one poster's words on an internet forum.

And I'm done derailing this thread.

[annewandering]

Oh she hasnt left the church but we do have power in affecting peoples lives, anonymous or not. Every day we come into contact with many people we may not even know of, especially on the internet. We may be the only ones they ever learn from about the church or anything else to do with God, for that matter. I pray that I have not caused one soul to turn away from God in any way. If so, to those people, I sincerely am sorry. Please forgive me and dont blame God or the church for what I have done. I am imperfect but do try to not offend God or those searching.

[Vort]

Really? Someone leaves the church due to an anonymous post(s) on an internet forum? Yeah, there's more to leaving the church than one poster's words on an internet forum.

I don't know. I have been told more than once, and a few times in quite explicit profanity, that my posts have done just this. Never sure how to react to such an accusation. While it is clear that I have in the (far, far distant) past crossed the line, not only of good taste but of reasonable discourse, I do not know how to respond to the charge that discussing my opinion on an opinion-based discussion list would so badly offend people that they would apostatize from the gospel of Jesus Christ.

It's one thing to target someone and set about trying to destroy them, or even engage in simple harassment. The former would be vile indeed, and the latter very objectionable. It's quite another to post an opinion, even a strongly expressed one, and be told that you have spiritually killed someone else from having done so. My initial reaction is to deny such a charge. If people are truly so brittle and fragile in their testimony that it can be shattered by a criticism from some anonymous Internet person, they ought not be participating in online discussion lists.

In any case, my poorest judgment and most explicit criticisms have been exercised against posts and posters who, in my view, attack the Church, its membership, and its leadership, under the guise of being faithful members. I find such open and rank hypocrisy more galling than perhaps anything else I read online. If such people are the ones charging me with driving them away from the gospel, then I will gladly allow a higher power to judge between us. I do not recall ever having intentionally set out to drive anyone away from the gospel, but I have been and am willing to call a spade a spade, especially when someone represents himself as a believing and faithful Latter-day Saint, yet seems intent on mocking, making light of, and discrediting the Church, its leaders, and its faithful members. I will not name names, but I expect most who have been on this list for more than a few months can think of multiple examples of what I'm talking about.

[applepansy]

For people who are are disabled or have other health issues, ofttimes online social networking becomes their life. I know of people who have been terribly hurt by words on the internet. I personally know of one beautiful woman who was in a lot of physical pain who eventually managed to kill herself. It was her online friends who prevented it for months and it was one online post the pushed her over the edge the final time. Relationships online become real especially when real world interactions are limited. I think sometimes we forget that.

[Wingnut]

I taught a woman on my mission who wasn't living with her boyfriend, but was having sexual relations with him. She knew that they wouldn't be able to just stop, having already started, but she also had a testimony of the Law of Chastity. She explained to him her desire to be baptized, and also that in order to do so, she wanted to marry him. He took a few days to think about it, and in the meantime, her response to us (when we asked, "what if he says 'no?' ") was, "I've done it on my own before [she had two kids from another man], and I can do it again. If he won't marry me, he knows where the door is." He did agree to marry her, and they were married a week after her baptism. For that week, they abstained from having sex.

(This was my only golden investigator. The day we planned to teach her about the Word of Wisdom, she had made herself a cup of coffee that morning, brought the mug to her lips, and suddenly remembered having read that Mormons don't drink coffee, at which point she promptly poured out her cup of coffee, along with the entire pot, and threw out her coffee maker. We hadn't yet taught the Word of Wisdom...it was later that afternoon.)

[ZionsRodeVos]

In my mission we taught families where the parents were not married. Those who would get married were baptized. Those that would not were not baptized.

[Bini]

I don't understand why you would live and have a child with a person who refuses to marry you in the first place.

You miss the point that sometimes BOTH parties wish to remain unmarried, and the change of heart to become married only comes after the fact. I met a couple women in my birth club, and some of them so badly wanted their boyfriend to propose marriage (now that they were pregnant) but prior to this, admitted that they mutually agreed that marriage was unnecessary.