ABS Gay Ban

[Guest]

Even homosexuals (living a gay lifestyle OR identifying themselves as having SSA) want to be apart of their community, and its organisations. I may need clarification on this but I believe that the LDS church welcomes ALL - heterosexual and homosexual. Being gay or lesbian won't allow you to be baptised or hold a calling but from my understanding, they are very much welcomed to church, perhaps even encouraged to attend. It makes sense that homosexuals want to feel the Spirit of the Lord too, even if they are sinning differently than ourselves.

Sorry to venture off. The comment got me thinking is all.

You can't be baptized a member of the Church as an actively practicing homosexual same as you can't be a member of the BSA as an actively practicing homosexual. The Church welcomes non-members to attend services for obvious reasons. But, the BSA does not welcome non-members to attend their activities for obvious reasons.

Okay, while you're thinking on this... here's some more for you to think about:

You can't be a member of the BSA if you're a girl but yes, you can be baptized a member of the Church. Now, if you're gay, are you a girl or a boy? Because, Boy Scouts play up to the strengths of Boys. I just read that thread about how Relief Society makes centerpieces and EQ loans you a chainsaw... Boys Scouts have a completely different program than Girl Scouts. And since as straight folks we don't really know how SSA plays into the strengths of their gender (I know my gay friend in kindergarten has more female tendencies/sensitivities/strengths than male), maybe the LGBT organization should structure their own scouting program because they're the experts at it... separate from the BSA just like Girls Scouts is separate from the BSA.

Edited August 9, 2012 by anatess

[Wingnut]

You can't be a member of the BSA if you're a girl...

Actually, you can be.

[Backroads]

The Venturing program is co-ed!

Not in LDS Scouting, 'course.

[Bini]

Okay, while you're thinking on this... here's some more for you to think about:

You can't be a member of the BSA if you're a girl but yes, you can be baptized a member of the Church. Now, if you're gay, are you a girl or a boy? Because, Boy Scouts play up to the strengths of Boys. I just read that thread about how Relief Society makes centerpieces and EQ loans you a chainsaw... Boys Scouts have a completely different program than Girl Scouts. And since as straight folks we don't really know how SSA plays into the strengths of their gender (I know my gay friend in kindergarten has more female tendencies/sensitivities/strengths than male), maybe the LGBT organization should structure their own scouting program because they're the experts at it... separate from the BSA just like Girls Scouts is separate from the BSA.

Anatess, I appreciate the food for thought but it doesn't connect for me. For one, it's a common error to classify gay men as being feminine. Some are, and perhaps the ones we generally tend to identify as being "gay", are the ones that come across flamboyant. On that same note, the gays and lesbians that conduct themselves in the classic (perhaps stereotypical) form of their gender, are the ones that go under the radar.

[Guest]

Actually, you can be.

Ah okay. Venturing.

[Guest]

Anatess, I appreciate the food for thought but it doesn't connect for me. For one, it's a common error to classify gay men as being feminine. Some are, and perhaps the ones we generally tend to identify as being "gay", are the ones that come across flamboyant. On that same note, the gays and lesbians that conduct themselves in the classic (perhaps stereotypical) form of their gender, are the ones that go under the radar.

And they're more than welcome in the BSA membership.

[annewandering]

hmm so let me think here. The boy and young men are in boy scouts during ym activities. Right?

The church is not against gays. We are against unmarried straight and gay sexual activity. Right?

So we welcome a chaste gay boy into ym but we do not let him participate because he is gay?

This is not right.

[Guest]

hmm so let me think here. The boy and young men are in boy scouts during ym activities. Right?

The church is not against gays. We are against unmarried straight and gay sexual activity. Right?

So we welcome a chaste gay boy into ym but we do not let him participate because he is gay?

This is not right.

Did you read the post where I responded to JAG on the BSA policy? You can participate if you are gay. You can't participate if the BSA finds out you are actively acting on your SSA. So, if you are YM in the LDS Church and you are gay, you can join YM and Scouting activities. But, if you are YM and you have a boyfriend you are going to have a talk with the bishop and you're probably going to be pulled out of scouting unless the bishop can plea the case to the council. Depending on what the bishop decides, you're either going to continue attending YM activities or not but I'm fairly certain you have to go through some kind of a repentance process.

Edited August 9, 2012 by anatess

[Backroads]

hmm so let me think here. The boy and young men are in boy scouts during ym activities. Right?

The church is not against gays. We are against unmarried straight and gay sexual activity. Right?

So we welcome a chaste gay boy into ym but we do not let him participate because he is gay?

This is not right.

The thing is, Young Men's is not Scouting and vise versa. One of my pet peeves is when people think they are the same thing.

A young man who is openly and practicingly gay might be allowed to "unofficially" attend Scouting events with the ward, but it might be another thing for the boy to be registered with the ward's Scout Troop.

[annewandering]

The thing is, Young Men's is not Scouting and vise versa. One of my pet peeves is when people think they are the same thing.

A young man who is openly and practicingly gay might be allowed to "unofficially" attend Scouting events with the ward, but it might be another thing for the boy to be registered with the ward's Scout Troop.

Truth is the whole thing is confusing to me anyway. I dont really understand why we are involved in the scouting program at all. Surely we are capable of organizing a gospel oriented program for our young people, boys and girls.

I do not see why a gay young man can not attend ym without it being unofficial. Its church. We are open to even sinners being welcome. I thought anyway. Being unofficial does not sound welcoming.

If its church then we follow our GA guidance but boy scouts are not church.

[Backroads]

Truth is the whole thing is confusing to me anyway. I dont really understand why we are involved in the scouting program at all. Surely we are capable of organizing a gospel oriented program for our young people, boys and girls.

I do not see why a gay young man can not attend ym without it being unofficial. Its church. We are open to even sinners being welcome. I thought anyway. Being unofficial does not sound welcoming.

If its church then we follow our GA guidance but boy scouts are not church.

In such a case, it might be wise for a ward to have weekly activities that have nothing to do with Scouting.

[annewandering]

In such a case, it might be wise for a ward to have weekly activities that have nothing to do with Scouting.

Sounds better to me.

[Traveler]

A few things many may not understand about scouting. I was quite surprised as a scout master to discover that some boys are sent off on their first camp-out having never even made their own bed before. For some reason there is a general attitude in the church that fathers don’t need to accompany their sons on any scouting camp-outs. It is not unusual that a boy on his first outing away from home and family is scared and home sick. Sometimes even experienced scouts with issues at home break down, are lonely, feeling abandoned and wanting love and comfort. Their emotions are messed up (sometimes with hormonal changes) that make them a very venerable target.

This situation is very problematic. Older boys will bully a venerable kid and others will join in – sort of a shark feeding frenzy. Let me set a stage for you all. A young scout that is a good looking on a camp-out breaks down and some of the others boys tease him calling him a sissy. He feels out of place and there are issues at home being kept inside of him. He withdraws from the group. Another boy – a little older puts his arm around this kid and says things that make him feel better. There is a very fine line here between being helpful and crossing over into abuse.

Sometimes that older boy has been encouraged to be mindful of other younger scouts and to help and assist. It is part of the patrol method and part of the responsibility of the patrol leader and other boys given responsibilities in the troop. The younger scout tells the older scout that no one like him. The word may be love and not like. The older scout responds – I do – physically holding and comforting the younger scout in a warm embrace. About then a couple of the other scouts show up on the seen having heard the last of the verbal exchange between the two.

First off – the younger scout, regardless of his spirituality and straightness will now be faced with a greater problem that being called a sissy. And remember these are all children without the brain development to be even capable of handling executive moral decisions. If that older boy is, by his own admission – Gay! The younger scout has a serious problem. I would point out at this time that it is not unusual for someone “outted” to be bullied. The gay community is adamant that gays cannot ever be happily married or “with” the opposite sex in an honest relationship - ever. The young scout is easily convinced he is not normal (which is what most boys think anyway). In time who can predict what this young scout will endure and what adjustments he will acquire. The gay community will welcome him with literal open arms and from time to time, because of various circumstances the younger scout may even experiment with the possibility of being gay and find some comfort from the storm that surrounds him – something the gay community will strongly encourage (experimentation is already strongly and openly encouraged for all boys by much if not all of the gay community).

But what if the boy is uncomfortable with being gay? He does not want to be gay. I hear statement like this regularly from those resigned to their gayness that they went through exactly this uncomfortable stage. I submit in all seriousness that a boy facing such circumstances could very well end up committing suicide before reaching the age of 25 – when they’re brain is fully developed to deal with such problems. I would also submit that the gay community will not take any responsibility and blame entirely heterosexuals – despite the gay insistence and rhetoric that once a person is gay they can never ever change – that there is no way out of being gay – except suicide?

The Traveler

[annewandering]

Traveler, that is terrible. The problem is bullying in large part. Not being gay in this instance anyway. Why do we do this? We need to get our minds out of the gutter and into Christlike love. I really think most of us do try to do this but somehow its not enough.

[Soulsearcher]

Hey, it's not like anyone has a right to be in an organization.

And it is all about Honor Code. Doesn't make lying right, but it sounds like you're saying they are being punished for being honest. Maybe they are, in a sense, but it's because they don't make the qualifications.

I'm more saying for a youth who already has issues feeling like they don't fit in and kind of need the peer support, if they are targeted for being different with out actually doing anything wrong( not engaging in sexual activity) i'm worried that even expressing their feelings and talking about things could be enough to get them kicked out and i don't think that's right. Now with what anatess posted and says, if she's right then i have no real concerns. If it's only engaging in sexual activity that can get you booted then I'm fine with that, but the proceeding years are hard enough with out getting tossed for something that's already causing you a lot of trouble.

[Traveler]

Traveler, that is terrible. The problem is bullying in large part. Not being gay in this instance anyway. Why do we do this? We need to get our minds out of the gutter and into Christlike love. I really think most of us do try to do this but somehow its not enough.

I do not disagree - but I believe that part of the problem is how a child develops during adolescents. In essence the cards are staked against them - and not just with this issue.

I personally believe that once a child emerges from adolescents that society must be open to the possibility that a child can still change and be or become what they think they should. For example, if you may have notice in the news that Andy Reed (LDS and professional football coach) recently lost a son to suicide that reached adulthood burdened with drug addictions.

There are two points that I believe are critical and of great importance. First - that there are issues dealing especially with certain kinds of rewards associated with drugs and sex that all of society need to protect our children from.

Second: that regardless of the information we give our children - their brain does not develop well enough until about age 25 to make difficult moral decisions - especially for things associated with pleasure. We just do not need to throw Children into the currents of unresolved public opinions expecting them be able to handle decisions.

Boys (or girls) of scouting age should not be dealing with sexual issues.

The Traveler

[skippy740]

The Traveler,

You bring up some interesting and very valid points.

It makes me wonder if patrol leaders (or any other youth leadership position) should take Youth Protection Training? I don't know if it's required at this time... and I'm thinking that it isn't.

Leaders cannot be everywhere at once, and young boy scout leaders also need to know what's appropriate contact and what isn't with young boys... and even need "2-deep" leadership/witnesses, etc.?

[Schwesterherz]

It is not correct if somebody is banned because of his homosexual orientation. As long as they have not made a homosexual activity as a boy scout or leader, they should be part of the movement. It is not a sin to be homosexual. But it is an sin to do it.

[Guest]

I'm more saying for a youth who already has issues feeling like they don't fit in and kind of need the peer support, if they are targeted for being different with out actually doing anything wrong( not engaging in sexual activity) i'm worried that even expressing their feelings and talking about things could be enough to get them kicked out and i don't think that's right. Now with what anatess posted and says, if she's right then i have no real concerns. If it's only engaging in sexual activity that can get you booted then I'm fine with that, but the proceeding years are hard enough with out getting tossed for something that's already causing you a lot of trouble.

What I posted is quoted from the BSA press release last April. So, it is right.

But what you're saying here is different. What you're saying here is that you expect boys to express, talk about, and discuss homosexuality in a Boy Scout activity - something that the BSA wants to stay out of. So, if this kind of expression becomes a distraction to the BSA mission, they could lose their membership.

SSA should be expressed, talked about, and discussed outside of scouting. Scouting is just not the avenue for that type of talk. This is the same for any sexual stuff. That is left for the parents/church/school/doctor to discuss. Not BSA.

[Blackmarch]

Please do not discuss any politicians. That aside, what's all this commotion about American Boy Scouts banning homosexual BOY scouts? I understand that this ban also includes scout leaders but banning young boys based on their sexual orientation? I just saw this on the news. What are your thoughts?

Mine would be; it would have to be a case by case basis. Ultimately yes such action would be legit as one of the core philosophies of the BSA is to be morally straight.

However I'd highly suggest a reserved approach; if an individual is not bringing up their sexuality, or encouraging others to engage/support it or repeatedly behaving in a manner unbecoming of a boy scout i don't see why they couldn't participate as a member for most activities.

But

a point in support of banning or partial banning of homosexual members from certain activities; a lot of camps have communal showers, as well as housing arrangements that would be very inappropriate if such were shared with the opposite gender, and i'd have to take a similar view for an individual who was homosexual.

[Soulsearcher]

What I posted is quoted from the BSA press release last April. So, it is right.

But what you're saying here is different. What you're saying here is that you expect boys to express, talk about, and discuss homosexuality in a Boy Scout activity - something that the BSA wants to stay out of. So, if this kind of expression becomes a distraction to the BSA mission, they could lose their membership.

SSA should be expressed, talked about, and discussed outside of scouting. Scouting is just not the avenue for that type of talk. This is the same for any sexual stuff. That is left for the parents/church/school/doctor to discuss. Not BSA.

And yet when i was in the scouting program as young as 6 or 7 all the boys talked about girls. Their crushes, and as the years passed conversations grew broader. As long as we prohibit any talk about all love, sex and desire then i agree, however i really don't see telling boys that they are forbidden to talk about a crush or what girl they might think is pretty will work very well, more so as the boys start to hit puberty. I'm saying if the rest of the troop can comment on these things with out fear of being tossed out and i've never heard of one being tossed out, then i think it should go both ways. As long as none of them are having sex, should the gay kid have to live by the different standard and keep totally silent while the other kids are free to gossip.

[Guest]

And yet when i was in the scouting program as young as 6 or 7 all the boys talked about girls. Their crushes, and as the years passed conversations grew broader. As long as we prohibit any talk about all love, sex and desire then i agree, however i really don't see telling boys that they are forbidden to talk about a crush or what girl they might think is pretty will work very well, more so as the boys start to hit puberty. I'm saying if the rest of the troop can comment on these things with out fear of being tossed out and i've never heard of one being tossed out, then i think it should go both ways. As long as none of them are having sex, should the gay kid have to live by the different standard and keep totally silent while the other kids are free to gossip.

Of course, when one is 6 or 7, they're too young to understand all that sexual stuff. Usually, boys that age just go with what they observe other kids are doing. So they may talk about having girlfriends or even boyfriends because... hey, maybe that's what they just saw on TV. The BSA does not BAN homosexual talk. What they say is - "if it starts to distract from the BSA mission". That is - if it starts to cause strife within a unit/troop/pack, etc.

You keep on making the point that hetero talk and homo talk is equal. In the BSA it is not. Because homosexual activity goes against being morally straight - one of the main missions of the BSA. Therefore, if you're just talking about love in general, sex in general, crushes in general, sure. Or even those things in a hetero manner, sure. Once you start talking about love, sex, and crushes in a homosexual manner, you will need to watch out - because when it starts to distract from the BSA mission of being morally straight, you could get kicked out. So yes, a homosexual cannot discuss those things in the BSA. Teaching the moral implications of the homosexual activity that you are talking about is not part of the BSA just like teaching the moral implications of not believing in a God is not part of the BSA. You're expected to already know that or be taught that outside of the BSA.

Talking about love, sex, crushes by looking at pornography in a BSA activity may get you kicked out as well. Not morally straight.

Talking about love, sex, crushes by a Scout leader about one of the young boys may get you kicked out as well. Same thing.

When you're talking about planning on stealing your fellow scout's money and it starts to distract from the BSA mission, you can get kicked out too even if you haven't done it yet.

There's no both ways about it because one is talking about things within the moral compass of the BSA - in thoughts, words, and deeds -, the other is not.

Edited August 10, 2012 by anatess

[annewandering]

And yet when i was in the scouting program as young as 6 or 7 all the boys talked about girls. Their crushes, and as the years passed conversations grew broader. As long as we prohibit any talk about all love, sex and desire then i agree, however i really don't see telling boys that they are forbidden to talk about a crush or what girl they might think is pretty will work very well, more so as the boys start to hit puberty. I'm saying if the rest of the troop can comment on these things with out fear of being tossed out and i've never heard of one being tossed out, then i think it should go both ways. As long as none of them are having sex, should the gay kid have to live by the different standard and keep totally silent while the other kids are free to gossip.

As a side issue I am not ever going to say that straight people should hide all aspects of their sexuality as if it were abnormal. It is not. I dont want to be offensive, and I am sure I am going to be, but homosexuality is not normal. It is very much against natural and is taboo in most cultures. There is no reason we should expect kids to accept seeing, discussing, engaging in any of its aspects as if it were perfectly normal. There is no reason we should accept our kids being exposed to it, most especially in a church or youth organization context.

I am sorry but these are problems straight kids should not have to deal with. As for the gay kids, they do have to accept, that if the human race is going to continue, some overt expressions of sexuality are going to be happening.

Bullying and mocking, on the other hand, are not acceptable in any form.

[Traveler]

And yet when i was in the scouting program as young as 6 or 7 all the boys talked about girls. Their crushes, and as the years passed conversations grew broader. As long as we prohibit any talk about all love, sex and desire then i agree, however i really don't see telling boys that they are forbidden to talk about a crush or what girl they might think is pretty will work very well, more so as the boys start to hit puberty. I'm saying if the rest of the troop can comment on these things with out fear of being tossed out and i've never heard of one being tossed out, then i think it should go both ways. As long as none of them are having sex, should the gay kid have to live by the different standard and keep totally silent while the other kids are free to gossip.

Scouting at 6 or 7?? cub scouts starts at age 8 and the children are only allowed one overnight camp a year - and if I remember right they are required to be older for the overnight camp - like 11.

Having taught 8 year olds in primary - seldom are the boys that interested in girls - even to the point of avoiding the possibility of sitting next to one. Girls seem a little more intelligent and will sit by a boy much like another girl. Very seldom do either the girls or boys understand differences even if they are aware of differences.

Kind of like the cartoon of two young boys fishing by a nudist colony. One climbed a tree to free a hook and discovered the nudists on the other side of a tall fence - he calls down to his friend and says that there are people on the other side of the fence. His friend asks, "Are they boys or girls". The boy responds, "I do not know - they do not have any clothes on.

I find that children like contact comfort - something that makes me very uncomfortable around children - even my own children and grandchildren that enjoyed “cuddling” to me. I have never noticed that the sex of the child made any difference in they’re enjoying and needing contact from males or females. For this reason I believe that an adult abusing a child or allowing a child to be abused is a very evil and horrendous crime. I also believe that only an abused child will seek out or notice (understand) sexual discussions or actions.

The Traveler

[Bini]

I don't know if Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are the same program but according to online sources, boys most certainly can start at age 6 (1st grade).