Tithing

[CrimsonKairos]

As an employee for someone else, I pay on net income. Why? Tithing is 10% of your increase. If the government deducts taxes from my income, those taxes never get into my pocket, so it doesn't increase my bank account or possessions. I've never heard anyone say to pay 10% of your pre-tax paycheck...I believe in paying 10% of what you actually take home and can spend (that's how I define increase).

As a business owner, I pay 10% of any money I get. Period. It's increase I didn't have before, even if it goes to pay for equipment I had to buy for my business (I operate a graphic design/videography business). Businesses file taxes differently than individuals (at least here in WA), so I find out in December if I owe taxes. If so, I don't pay tithing on tax money.

[BenRaines]

Sorry Shantress but there was not Judgement being made of others. At least not on my part. Question was asked what was tithing and I was sharing my opinion.

Only an individual member can make that Judgement in their own life.

Ben Raines

[shanstress70]

Sorry Shantress but there was not Judgement being made of others. At least not on my part. Question was asked what was tithing and I was sharing my opinion.

Only an individual member can make that Judgement in their own life.

Ben Raines

Good to know that... thanks. My comment was directed toward your last line. It seemed you were suggesting that man were robbing God if he pay on the net. But maybe I was just being touchy. :)

[Winnie G]

years ago we almost lost everything, and yes we were told "Charity begins at home"

when we visited with the bishop worried about being told not to pay he told us to pay your tithes if you fall short I will take care it.

We made it though that ruff time and I don't think we would have done as well if we had Roded God.

in all of that time we did not have to turn to the bishop for help more then a few times.

we could have lost our house but we grow in our testimony of tithing. The money always seemed to come from some were, we called it money from haven.

The best way to to gain that testimony is to do it.

[rosie321]

Made clear to who?

I think it's important for each one of us to realize that not everybody has the same faith (or assurance) from God, and that God doesn't expect us to do what other people did unless God assures us, specifically.

For instance, I do know God was speaking through Malachi to reveal God's will to those people in Malachi's life time... but it wouldn't necessarily follow that I would also know that God wanted me to pay tithing with my money in my life time. Agree strongly with you here. But on this topic there was a person asking about if they would be able to go to the temple. Hopefully by that stage they know how to obtain truth and how to see it. Maybe its just me but I find that those who ask a question like this are just looking for some way out. They are not trying to use faith to get through it.

And how would I ever come to know that?

By receiving faith from God, for myself.

Just because God told some people doesn't mean God told me... even if God was speaking through prophets... and I shouldn't assume I should go and do what other people did just because that's what they knew they should do.

We need our own faith to know what God wants from each of us, and without that we don't know what God wants. Amen again. The person lacking faith has more serious issues to contend with. What is truth and how to find it. Tithing and the ten commandments are concepts that are presented well through christian and LDS faiths (though not everyone practices it). That is where faith and work come in to put this into practiceBut since I know God wants me to pay tithing with my money, then, of course, that's something I should now do.

Amen again

The best way to to gain that testimony is to do it.

Couldn't agree more especially on this matter.

I'm sure it's not most peoples' intention to rob God, but more like many people are struggling to make ends meet. It's easier for some of us who are in the 'somewhat comfortable' stage in life to judge those who have a hard time paying 10%. Agreed. All things are not easy. But these things stand out to me as more important issues at hand. Where does God's will rank into this? Am I doing what he asks of me? Do I trust in faith that he will give me the tools that I need to accomplish it? In Matthew it gives the example of the sheep and the goats. God seperating the righteous from the wicked on judgement day. The only difference between the two being what they did and didn't do. I personally do not want to stand before God and think why didn't I even try.

If by arranging some priorities I can draw closer to God then why not? Also maybe there's an important lesson here too for the comfortable members that is being missed and needs to be pointed out. Maybe they need to be keeping their eyes on the struggling families and making sure that their needs are met. Simple acts of kindness can take away the burden from them and help them see the windows of heaven opened to them. Acts like having a struggling member or family over for dinner.

Send over food baskets. Give of the extra that they have..... Whatever things may help a family in their time of need. We are all extensions of Gods loving arm. If we have extra of something see if there is someone that can use it. Miracles can happen through such simple acts.

'm talking about the many LDS who are young, newly married with children early on, perhaps while they're still in school. They need to scrape every penny to make it month to month.

I'm not saying you should or should not pay on gross... I'm saying that many times when one questions it, it's not because they want to 'rob' God.

I understand what you are saying here, I've fit into that category before. Even now my family is really not

in the best of states. It would be so much easier to just forgo paying it. Don't ask me how we make it month to month some times.

I have tried not paying in the past. Giving myself a way out.

I saw the bills sitting there and those seemed scarier to me at the time. The funny part is they just seemed more overwhelming and seemed to almost grow.

But when I've made the commitment to pay my tithing into practice

and to put the Lord first

into practice. I've seen a huge difference. Even just in my spirit. Doors and "windows" were opened that I never thought could be. I've gotten what I've needed and my family has. I've never gone

to the bishop to ask for help or anything.

Granted many things are second hand. Gotta love garage sales (many things around here you can find at the garage sales still with tags), ebay, thrift stores, grocery discount shops....

Its funny when people think how could you afford that . Or think that we

must be in a better state then we are

in just because of the bounty that God has given us.

As winnie said

the only way to get a testimony is to do it

Who wouldn't want a testimony of tithing as promised in

Malachi 3:10?

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it]. 11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. :

The question is tithing to be or not to be in your life and to what degree. That's something between each individual and God.

[shanstress70]

So Rosie,

Are you saying that it's your opinion that you should pay on gross instead of net?

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not saying that those struggling should not pay tithing. I'm saying that the difference of paying on gross vs net can be significant when you're scraping by. If someone is paying on net, it isn't bc they are robbing God, but possibly bc they have been told that is acceptable by their bishop.

[rosie321]

So Rosie,

Are you saying that it's your opinion that you should pay on gross instead of net?

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not saying that those struggling should not pay tithing. I'm saying that the difference of paying on gross vs net can be significant when you're scraping by. If someone is paying on net, it isn't bc they are robbing God, but possibly bc they have been told that is acceptable by their bishop.

I've heard very strong and differing opinions on that. I don't pretend to be an expert or judge of the matter. It's something that's ultimately up to an individual and God in my opinion.

I personally go for the gross because that is what we were given whether a portion was taken for other purposes like taxes or insurance etc. We started out with a certain amount to use. Taxes and the like would have to be paid regardless. Imagine them as a bill you get each month. A bill for living in your country. Then consider what Jesus said. "Render unto Ceasers what is Ceasors and unto God what is Gods' Should we cut down God's percentage so we can just pay our other bill collectors? Who should we be more fearful of and repectful of? Also its comforting to know the blessings that we recieve the more we give.

Granted our taxes are extremely annoying and burdomsome things. Many times they go for things that we probably wouldn't support otherwise. But I think that those are a reflection of the direction of society and also point to peoples responsiblity in trying to encourage responsible laws and usage of the funds gathered. LDS church leaders and many christian leaders have strongly encouraged members to get involved in their governments to help shape where and how funds are used. So they are used properly . Regardless of how our taxes are used, they should never stand in the way of returning to God what we were asked to.

As far as the matter above and bankruptcies and such where people are unable to do so for a time. I would encourage somebody forward. And might direct them to these thoughts if the opportunity arose.

1st Your current situation is only for a time. Make sure your heart is always open to doing it. Are you willing to tithe in your heart until the day you are able to physically do so?

2nd. Especially in certain circumstances the question for them to personally ask themselves how did you get into the situation you were in and how could you avoid ever getting into it again?

3rd. Pray for the strength and abilities to do so one day.

4th. Have faith and patience that things will come together to make it possible.

Ultimately its all a matter of the heart. Where is it and why? What is first, what is not.

[Gwen]

so if you pay your tithing on before tax money do you pay tithing on your tax return or is it already tithed? or on the fip side could you say taxes aren't increase until the return so pay on what comes home and then tithe the tax return if and when it comes?

all this seems it is picking at the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law. i guess in my opinion you must do what you can do. if your situation is hard (tithing before or after taxes can make a huge difference) you may need to live the letter of the law (and be blessed by the letter of the law), but if things are better for you be generous and live the spirit (and be blessed by the spirit of it). i personally think when it comes down to it it's between the individual and god, if you need help making the decision talk to the bishop and get his counsel, if he gives you the wrong advice the burden is on his head.

[Winnie G]

I know peaple who pay gross insted of net.

We pay on net always have that is what comes home to us.

I find peaple who pay gross are peaple who dont have struggles with money.

If thats what you can do go for it but dont show off that you do do it. I meet them too. Show offs

[shanstress70]

I know peaple who pay gross insted of net.

We pay on net always have that is what comes home to us.

I find peaple who pay gross are peaple who dont have struggles with money.

If thats what you can do go for it but dont show off that you do do it. I meet them too. Show offs

This is somewhat the point I was trying to make, and you helped me out perfectly, Winnie!

[rosie321]

I find peaple who pay gross are peaple who dont have struggles with money.

I have to disagree with this broad generalization. While each must consider their own situation individually before God, not everyone who pays gross is not struggling with how to do it. Some worry about how they will make things come together. It is hard and entails sacrifices along the way. Some just commit themselves differently, I guess.

If thats what you can do go for it but dont show off that you do do it. I meet them too. Show offs

There are two extremes you can get caught into not paying tithing at all and trying to find every loophole possible (your state of heart not being right) and then the look at what I'm doing extreme. (like the situation in the Bible of the widow and her mite and the rich man). Not everyone sits there showing off what they do. Somewhere in the middle is the answer. Through time, asking the questions, faith and prayer the answers will come more clear.

I think the same thing applies here as in prayer do it secretly and not to be seen of men.

Commiting yourself more to God in my opinion is never wrong such as choosing to pay from your gross. It may make things a little uncomfortable temporally but in the long run it all works together for the good.

[prisonchaplain]

Pay on gross income before taxes are taken out......this is my favorite time of year.....Tithing settlement time.....the time to meet with each member............

Palerider, I've always thought this too. It's the giving of the "first fruits." On the other hand, civil and religious taxes were mixed in the OT system. Also, our European, and perhaps our Canadian, bretheren rightly point out that their taxes are a huge portion of their paycheck--sometimes more than half. Perhaps some leeway should be granted to those required to sustain socialist governments.

[Palerider]

<div class='quotemain'>

Pay on gross income before taxes are taken out......this is my favorite time of year.....Tithing settlement time.....the time to meet with each member............

Palerider, I've always thought this too. It's the giving of the "first fruits." On the other hand, civil and religious taxes were mixed in the OT system. Also, our European, and perhaps our Canadian, bretheren rightly point out that their taxes are a huge portion of their paycheck--sometimes more than half. Perhaps some leeway should be granted to those required to sustain socialist governments.

I also know that some of the Baptist churches in our area teach to pay tithes on the gross......they also have some articles in the Baptist press.....I think thats the name of the paper....

[Outshined]

Is tithing based on gross or net income?

By revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord stated that members should pay "one-tenth of all their interest [increase] annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever." (D&C 119:4) Present Church policy specifically states that no one in the Church has any authority to interpret this revelation for another person (See Financial Clerk's Handbook). This prohibition applies to everyone, including Stake Presidents and Bishops. If a local Church leader instructs you how to calculate your tithing, then he is in violation of this policy. It is up to the agency of each individual person to determine what constitute's a fair interpretation of the revelation.

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/a...tithing_eom.htm

[Palerider]

I have been a member of this church all my life.....have also been taught to always pay tithes on gross income....we always taught that as missionaries....I have spent 3 yrs as a Bishop and now I am currently in my 7th as a Branch President. Have always taught to pay on gross as have all the Stake Presidents I have served under. It does not tell me in my handbook of Instruction which way to pay. I pay this by my choice. When I ask members at the end of every year during tithing settlement, which I am currently in the middle of once again....I ask them how do they declare themselves....full or part tithe payers...its up to them to answer that....I don't ask them if they pay on the gross or net...if I am asked my opinion I give it....I will also work with those who want to pay tithing and feel as if they can't afford it....I will offer to put food on their table so they can pay tithing.....its then up to them to make that choice. If there are other issues I will offer help....again its their choice to accept it or reject it.

[Latter Days Guy]

There seems to be some disagreement over the NET of GROSS issue. I think we need to take a look at what Outshined posted and then decide if we are paying our full tithe or not. Many people have said it's between the individual and God, and I believe that is exactly what the quote states.

By revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord stated that members should pay "one-tenth of all their interest [increase] annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever." (D&C 119:4) Present Church policy specifically states that no one in the Church has any authority to interpret this revelation for another person (See Financial Clerk's Handbook). This prohibition applies to everyone, including Stake Presidents and Bishops. If a local Church leader instructs you how to calculate your tithing, then he is in violation of this policy. It is up to the agency of each individual person to determine what constitute's a fair interpretation of the revelation.

[BenRaines]

Well said Palerider. I have never asked or been asked what did you earn and how much did you pay? It is a question of are you a full tithe payer, partial or none.

Perhaps this should be another thread so not to steal this one but to those who have been to the temple what does it mean to consecrate all your time, talents, energy and all that you have to the building up of the Kingdom of God?

Someone made reference to "Show offs". How do you show off? I have never seen anyone carrying around a sign or saying in testimony meeting or in a Sacrament meeting talk "I pay my tithing on my gross income".

Ben Raines

[Outshined]

There seems to be some disagreement over the NET of GROSS issue. I think we need to take a look at what Outshined posted and then decide if we are paying our full tithe or not. Many people have said it's between the individual and God, and I believe that is exactly what the quote states.

By revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord stated that members should pay "one-tenth of all their interest [increase] annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever." (D&C 119:4) Present Church policy specifically states that no one in the Church has any authority to interpret this revelation for another person (See Financial Clerk's Handbook). This prohibition applies to everyone, including Stake Presidents and Bishops. If a local Church leader instructs you how to calculate your tithing, then he is in violation of this policy. It is up to the agency of each individual person to determine what constitute's a fair interpretation of the revelation.

Exactly. If someone tells you to specifically pay on gross or net, they are violating Church policy. It is your decision.

[Winnie G]

Exactly. If someone tells you to specifically pay on gross or net, they are violating Church policy. It is your decision.

EXACTLY!

There is also the thought of Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's

After Taxes, even Christ agrees.

[Palerider]

for whats its worth....it does not say in the church handbook about violating policy on paying gross or net.....maybe it did at one time.....but not the ones we use today....or the one I go by....and I just got this new one a few months ago

[Winnie G]

church handbook

I wonder about those hand books some times,

I love bishops and leaders that use current ones or at lest read them when they do change.

If they did not read the changes then members of the church would be counseled by some old and at times archaic ideas.

Once the church counseled right in to the bedrooms of its members. (sex and birth control etc.)

Finley some one understood that had gone a little far.

I know this because I did the stake YSA sex talk.

Questions were asked and I turned to a bishop close by for the answer. He flipped though the pages saying “I know it in here some were”? he could not answer the question out load I leaned over and he whispered “oral sex”.

I said you cant find it? “No” but it was in here once”

The truth be told its no longer in the hand book.

What did I tell the youth,?

If your spouse is uncomfortable with a idea then don’t. (Short form)

I have asked and there is no hard rule gross or net. Its up to the member.

I would have loved to have some bishop counsel me as to having my tubs tied.

[rosie321]

I wonder about those hand books some times,

While I can understand the frustration and irritation of being judged from some rule book or having someone look at it as gospel law to judge unrighteously.

I guess I see also much benefit to it in that it can really help to steer the majority of the people to what would be the best thing for them. There are certain behaviours and codes of conduct that I think everyone would agree will draw you closer to righteousness. Obviously we may have times where we will not fit into the norm and such guidelines might be hurtful. That's where peoples love and forgiveness are required. But its nice to have some guidelines or a lighthouse so to say to help direct you to what would be best at a given time.

I've fallen outside of the Manual guidelines at times and have been judged and hurt as a result. But even then I see the benefit of them being there. I think they are there to help protect people and to help them draw closer to principles of righteousness. I've truly found the closer that people draw to them or the underlying ideas behind the guidelines, it helps to build a strength and unity.

These guidelines are an important lighthouse to help guide a number of people in the church. Especially those just starting out from avoiding many pitfalls and traps. I think everyone should look at them encouragingly and not as unrighteous judgement for those who are outside the norms. I really get frustrated by attempts to throw out the "lighthouse" for the benefit of those who don't want to be seen as outside of the norm or want to be "sensitive" to those outside of the norm. As being someone who has been outside the norm at times I do not get upset by people saying this should be the way that it is done in the church. Because I do understand that things can not just go with every whim. Certain guidelines must me made to benefit at all. There are certain patterns of behavior that are more likely to lead one to happiness then others or will be more likely to have one accomplish the Will of God to their full potential. People should be made aware of them. When I fall without that norm. I know I have to go to Heavenly Father and find out why. It always draws me closer to Him to try to find out why I am there and to find peace, strength or redirection. Sometimes this can be some of the most powerful, get to know God moments.

I do have to say that I don't like it when people use it to pass unrighteous judgement. Ultimately through God's direction I will be judged and its not up to others. I have to put their judgements in the proper perspective. That's my task. I have God's will to follow in my life and I can't let others distract me from it and I will use every tool in the book (even the manuals) to help guide me-whether I always follow everything or not.

[Latter Days Guy]

Which Church handbook is that?

[Maureen]

Which Church handbook is that?

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/o...h_handbook.html

M.

[Latter Days Guy]

<div class='quotemain'>

Which Church handbook is that?

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/o...h_handbook.html

M.

Thanks Maureen